PipeChat Digest #4815 - Monday, October 11, 2004
 
Re: hymns in worship
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
Re: Off-Topic: Pride and Priviledge
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: Off-Topic: Pride and Priviledge
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Re: I' not ashamed...
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: hymns in worship
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: I' not ashamed...
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: Off-Topic: Pride and Priviledge
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: hymns in worship
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Organs and Organists online update
  by "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
Re: Esteys
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
RE: Pisgah
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: hymns in worship From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:52:42 EDT   Hello listers,   I am choir director at a church with an organist who, in my and in other's =   opinions, among other things, seems unable to discern appropriate hymn = tempi on Sunday morning. Has anyone had to deal with this before, and if so, what = did you do?   Peace,   Dan dfry1@uiuc.edu _________________________________________________________________   Church Organist auditions should include both a group discussion about the =   applicant's Philosophy of Music in Worship (with the Pastor, the Music = Search Chairperson, and the Minister of Music / Choir Director), as well as a = prepared introduction and one or more contrasting stanzas of a congregational hymn accompaniment, a Prelude, Offertory and/or Postlude, and the sight-reading = of both a typical anthem accompaniment, and a realitvely unfamiliar hymn-tune. = Such an exercise will readily demonstrate the individual's strengths and = weaknesses and help to eliminate "surprises" of weaknesses learned after-the-fact of = the hiring.   Hymn tempi depend on many factors, i.e., the room (sanctuary) acoustic, = the instrument being used to lead the congregation/choir, the hymn itself - = (it's place in the service, its mood, its function in the overal scheme of the worship experience), the disposition or other factors affecting the = Organist at a particular time.   Avoid (at all costs) the temptation to utter the vulgar and meaningless request: "We'd really like for the hymns be a bit more 'up-beat? ' " "O = God, Our Help in Ages Past" - upbeat? "God of Grace and God of Glory" - upbeat? = "As the deer panteth" - upbeat? "Lord, I lift your Name on High" - upbeat?   Two musicians (i.e., choir director and organist) rarely agree (even in = the same church) on hymn tempi. If a competent, learned musician has been = hired to serve a church as its organist/pianist, that person should be given the freedom (and respect) to "minister" without undue critique or examination = for at least a minimum of three months prior to appraisal. It works in the = business world - and it ought to be the same in the church.   A word of suggestion about hymns in choir rehearsals: always include at = least TWO (if not all) of Sunday's hymns in every choir rehearsal.   Unfortunately in many churches, hymns are often the most unrehearsed = pieces of music in corporate worship. Given that they are, presumably, sung to = GOD (and GOD deserves excellence), not only by the pianist/organist, but by = the choir, as well.   For any choir member to be unfamiliar with either a text or a tune - or = the marriage of a hymn text and tune - is to do the worship service a huge disservice, as well as to the choir members, themselves. As worshippers, = they deserve to be 110% familiar with every aspect of what they're expected to sing. = Such exposure, in advance of Sunday, will also ensure that the keyboardist is rehearsing the hymns. This same person deserves the opportunity to prepare = the hymns, just like anthem accompaniments, prior to rehearsal.   One of my graduate school professors enjoyed stating: "Congregations are = the only musical ensembles throughout the world for whom there is rarely (if ever) a rehearsal, and yet they are expected to sing three, four or five = diverse pieces of music as though they thoroughly know the pieces. How can = excellence for GOD be achieved with preparation so lacking?" (Dr. Frederick F. = Jackisch, Ph.D., Wittenberg University, Springfield, OH)   Dale G. Rider Independence, MO USA  
(back) Subject: Re: Off-Topic: Pride and Priviledge From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:59:14 EDT   I concur with Herr Gluck that mediocrity (and the love of same) has been eroding our level of class in this country...   But, on risk of sounding low-brow, NASCAR is anything but mediocre. I = don't particularly enjoy it, but they spend gobs of money on the finest machinery...then finetune their driving skills to meet the rigors of the = race. And, for 1000s of years, people have watched and/or participated in races of one = sort or other. (And to think that nascar has its roots in the "industries" of my mountain ancestors -- i.e., bootlegging, moonshining, etc etc).   Back to mediocrity... it seems to me that where we are in our society is that, for the most part, people give up too easily, too soon, and too = often. And somehow, this is construed as more spiritual, more tolerant, more = diplomatic, more people-oriented.   How short-sighted, and how totally UNbiblical! The God who has given us = his very best deserves nothing less than our very best, in everything we do, particularly in the areas of vocation and faith. Regardless of style, if = we are going to make music, let's do it well!   Neil Brown        
(back) Subject: Re: Off-Topic: Pride and Priviledge From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 23:04:00 -0400   TubaMagna - it's tIme to go back on the meds....     -- noel jones      
(back) Subject: Re: I' not ashamed... From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:02:33 +0800   Mark, that hymn (I'm not ashamed to own my Lord) is a very commonly sung hymn in Australia but not to tune PISGAH. The hymn comes from Methodism, = and I can remember it being sung way back in the Methodist days in this = country. I have never heard the hymn tune you mentioned (PISGAH), nor can I find it =   in several hymn books I have here.   The hymn (I'm not ashamed) is in several hymn books in my possession Wesley's Hymns (1877) tune ST CLAIR Methodist Hymn Book (England and Australia) of 1933 tune AZMON Australian Hymn Book (1977) tune JACKSON Together in Song (AHB 2) (1999) tune JACKSON.   The tune Jackson, still sung frequently to more than one hymn in = Australia, is also in the Wesleyan Hymn Tune Book of 1866 under the name JACKSON'S = with the alternative BYZANTIUM. It comes from Thos Jackson of the 18th C.   I----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Koontz" <markkoontz@yahoo.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 8:54 AM Subject: Re: Pisgah     >I took a look through some of my hymnals. I found the following words to > Pisgah in "Trinity Hymnal", which also hints at lawyering: > > I'm not ashamed to own my Lord, > or to defend his cause, > maintain the honor of his Word, > the glory of his cross. > > The words are by Isaac Watts, and there are three other verses. > > I've never been in a church that used this hymnal, so I don't know if = it's > used > to any extent.    
(back) Subject: Re: hymns in worship From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 23:24:55 -0600   AOL EmailHello, Dan, et al: =20 You wrote: =20 > I am choir director at a church with an organist who,=20 > in my and int other's opinions, among other things,=20 > seems unable to discern appropriate hymn tempi on=20 > Sunday morning. . . .=20 =20 This harks back to our beginnings. I grew up in a=20 church culture that embraced singing loud and fast. =20 Tempi of more moderate paces were not supported with=20 adequate vocal technique, and went flat. Then, on of=20 our men returned from his annual visit to Wales, and=20 he advocated that we learn to sing more slowly and to=20 turn on the words of the hymns, imprinting the meaning=20 of the text in our minds and hearts. =20 =20 Now that I am older, my breath is much too short to=20 keep up with the tempi of our young men, and I stop=20 singing, panting for breath. =20 One of our fellow organists taught me that to really=20 know if the tempo is right, sing along with the=20 congregation. I believe he is right! =20 Then, you need to have a sensitive spirit to what=20 is happening in the worship experience, and adjust=20 the tempi, the registrations, and every other=20 property that musical setting until it is right. =20 Simplistic? Yes, but keep asking questions and=20 solicit other opinions, but reserve your evaluations=20 for your own private interpretations. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: Re: I' not ashamed... From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:59:15 +0800   I'm not surprised. PISGAH C.M. is Attributed to J. C. Lowry in Kentucky Har= mony, 1817 ... no doubt an American tune. I can easily imagine the melody b= eing played on a fife.=20   ----- Original Message ----- From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:02:33 +0800 To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: I' not ashamed...   > Mark, that hymn (I'm not ashamed to own my Lord) is a very commonly sung= =20 > hymn in Australia but not to tune PISGAH. The hymn comes from Methodism,= and=20 > I can remember it being sung way back in the Methodist days in this count= ry.=20 > I have never heard the hymn tune you mentioned (PISGAH), nor can I find i= t=20 > in several hymn books I have here. >=20 > The hymn (I'm not ashamed) is in several hymn books in my possession > Wesley's Hymns (1877) tune ST CLAIR > Methodist Hymn Book (England and Australia) of 1933 tune AZMON > Australian Hymn Book (1977) tune JACKSON > Together in Song (AHB 2) (1999) tune JACKSON. >=20 > The tune Jackson, still sung frequently to more than one hymn in Australi= a,=20 > is also in the Wesleyan Hymn Tune Book of 1866 under the name JACKSON'S w= ith=20 > the alternative BYZANTIUM. It comes from Thos Jackson of the 18th C.   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm   >  
(back) Subject: Re: Off-Topic: Pride and Priviledge From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 01:00:12 EDT   Sebastian,   What we lack is a House of Commons and a House of Lords. Every Jackass can = be a Senator here, and usually is; as well, every Jackass can be a = Congressman. How do they all get elected? By running on the "anti-intellectual" ticket. = Get an education, you're "elite". Get "c's" at Yale--become President, and a multi-billion-dollar "man of the People". I'll be flamed for this, but = WHERE ARE OUR PRIORITIES?   A pox on all available houses.   Pax, Bill H.  
(back) Subject: Re: hymns in worship From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:38:24 +0800   It may not be your organist ...=20   Once upon a time I was chided for playing too slowly by the pastor. One rea= son was that the music took time away from his sermon time. Other quirks we= re to give a lengthy explaination of doing only odd-numberd verses/stanzas= to the congregation -- longer than singing the two or three extra verses w= ould take. Obviously "Here, O My Lord, I See Thee Face to Face" (F.C. Atkin= son, MORECAMBE) and "O Sacred Head, Now Wounded" (H.L. Hassler, PASION CHOR= ALE) just don't cut it as up-beat pop music. We also have a reverberant bui= lding (Ok, gymnasium) and the "organ" (Alesis QS 7.1) just hangs there for= days. Eighth-note runs in fairly fast songs, like "Thine Be The Glory" (G.= F. Handel, MACCABAEUS) become mud. Then again, it I was just as guilty, bec= ause I ain't the bestest organist on the planet...   The solution: [1] Just by speaking with him, I was able to get an understan= ing of his frustration; while at the same time he got some insight into my= take on the music -- and it's OK to go 10 minutes over, the coffee will st= ill be there. [2] Speaking with the "sound guys" got them to reduce, if not= turn off completely, artificial reverberation. [3] Practice often ... I'm= lucky 'cause my instrument weighs all of thirty pounds. Over the year or t= wo since, my technique has improved (at least I think I play fewer wrong no= tes) and [4] practicing in the space before worship helps.   Today's offertory: Antonin Dvorak "Largo" from the "New World Symphony" :-)     ----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 23:24:55 -0600 To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: hymns in worship   > AOL EmailHello, Dan, et al: > =20 > You wrote: > =20 > > I am choir director at a church with an organist who,=20 > > in my and int other's opinions, among other things,=20 > > seems unable to discern appropriate hymn tempi on=20 > > Sunday morning. . . .=20 > =20 > This harks back to our beginnings. I grew up in a=20 > church culture that embraced singing loud and fast. > =20 > Tempi of more moderate paces were not supported with=20 > adequate vocal technique, and went flat. Then, on of=20 > our men returned from his annual visit to Wales, and=20 > he advocated that we learn to sing more slowly and to=20 > turn on the words of the hymns, imprinting the meaning=20 > of the text in our minds and hearts. =20 > =20 > Now that I am older, my breath is much too short to=20 > keep up with the tempi of our young men, and I stop=20 > singing, panting for breath. > =20 > One of our fellow organists taught me that to really=20 > know if the tempo is right, sing along with the=20 > congregation. I believe he is right! > =20 > Then, you need to have a sensitive spirit to what=20 > is happening in the worship experience, and adjust=20 > the tempi, the registrations, and every other=20 > property that musical setting until it is right. > =20 > Simplistic? Yes, but keep asking questions and=20 > solicit other opinions, but reserve your evaluations=20 > for your own private interpretations. > =20 > F. Richard Burt   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm   >  
(back) Subject: Organs and Organists online update From: "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:38:46 +0300   We have added two more performances by Marc Giacone playing the 1974 IV/64 Boisseau organ in the Cathedral of Monaco. More details of the organ can = be found on Marc's site http://wakamba.site.voila.fr/orgmg.html The additions are "Variations sur un th=E8me de Cl=E9ment Janequin" by = Jehan Alain. The registration used here is Cromorne (on choir) and Oboe (on = swell) played alternatively in the first part and the Cornet in the second part = and Guilmant's "Fugue a la Haendel". Both performances are well worth = listening to. Tim Grenz has redesigned the downloads page. Music is now listed by = composer with details of organs and performers attached to each piece. John Foss www.organsandorganistsonline.com www.http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ TOPIC OF THE WEEK Iraq - what next?      
(back) Subject: Re: Esteys From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:19:49 +0800   Four-wheel Drive & Vermont. Hmmmm?     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 23:44:05 -0500 To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: Esteys   > So you are saying Estey was the Subaru of organ builders. >=20 > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service > PO Box 111 > Burlington, VT 05402 > (802)578-3936 > Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20       -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm   >  
(back) Subject: RE: Pisgah From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:41:17 +0100   We had "I'm not ashamed to own my Lord," yesterday. I used the tune Gerontius for it. (We didn't know the tune that is set to it which is = called Arden) We don't have Pisgah in our hymnal, nor in any that I've ever = used.   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Mark Koontz Sent: 11 October 2004 01:54 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Pisgah   I took a look through some of my hymnals. I found the following words = to Pisgah in "Trinity Hymnal", which also hints at lawyering:   I'm not ashamed to own my Lord, or to defend his cause, maintain the honor of his Word, the glory of his cross.   The words are by Isaac Watts, and there are three other verses.