PipeChat Digest #4835 - Monday, October 18, 2004
 
RE: small scale stopped pipe
  by "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es>
RE: small scale stopped pipe
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
Re: organs in churches
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Organs in Parish Churches pre 17th century
  by "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk>
Cresc and Decresc in French Music
  by "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk>
adapting French music to American instruments
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
RE: Your opinion
  by "John Jarvis" <jljarvis@comcast.net>
Re: "caged rage" and C-C swell boxes
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
 

(back) Subject: RE: small scale stopped pipe From: "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:34:28 +0200   Quoting Dennis:   > BTW, I've often thought it would save some space and weight in > small organs if, say, the bottom octave of the 16' stop was a > "unit" manufactured out of two sheets of (high quality) plywood > with dividers sandwiched between, fitting into routed slots to > form the side walls of individual pipes. Two adjacent pipes > would share a common side wall. Upper ends could be cut to > length, and mouths could be formed in the usual way; feet perhaps > going into the back side of the pipe bottom.   If the walls were parallel, the pipes' scaling would be upset. This could be compensated for by making each 'pipe' correspondingly narrower, but this in turn would have tonal repercussions. An alternative might be to taper the walls to maintain some semblance of scale, but cutting all those routed slots at the correct angles might be tricky. And there's the difficulty of glueing all those partitions perfectly - one tiny leak and you'd have to junk the whole thing.   I had a similar idea for making very small wooden pipes by routing them in a single block of wood and then glueing on conventional fronts, but I've never gotten around to trying it.   Just my 2 euros' worth.   Peter.    
(back) Subject: RE: small scale stopped pipe From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:02:17 +0100   Re: Fixing pipes together into a block. Doing this might also alter the = tone of the pipes because I think some of the sound of a pipe must be due to = the resonances of the walls of the pipe itself, and the effect of the sound traveling through the metal or wood of the pipe. (Otherwise, why should = the composition of the pipe metal - more or less lead or tin etc. make any difference to the timbre? And we know that it does.)   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Peter Rodwell Sent: 18 October 2004 10:34 To: PipeChat Subject: RE: small scale stopped pipe   Quoting Dennis:   > BTW, I've often thought it would save some space and weight in > small organs if, say, the bottom octave of the 16' stop was a > "unit" manufactured out of two sheets of (high quality) plywood > with dividers sandwiched between, fitting into routed slots to > form the side walls of individual pipes. Two adjacent pipes > would share a common side wall. Upper ends could be cut to > length, and mouths could be formed in the usual way; feet perhaps > going into the back side of the pipe bottom.   If the walls were parallel, the pipes' scaling would be upset. This could be compensated for by making each 'pipe' correspondingly narrower, but this in turn would have tonal repercussions. An alternative might be to taper the walls to maintain some semblance of scale, but cutting all those routed slots at the correct angles might be tricky. And there's the difficulty of glueing all those partitions perfectly - one tiny leak and you'd have to junk the whole thing.   I had a similar idea for making very small wooden pipes by routing them in a single block of wood and then glueing on conventional fronts, but I've never gotten around to trying it.   Just my 2 euros' worth.   Peter.     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Re: organs in churches From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:46:59 +0800   The Anglican Church of St John in Albany Western Australia (the first = church to be consecrated in this state - 1848) had a barrel organ as late as 1850-1856 when it was replaced by a harmonium. The harmonium was replaced = in turn by a 6 stop single manual Wm Hill and Son pipe organ in 1890; the = Hill is still in the church in use after a sensitive restoration in 1975. Bob Elms.   Subject: organs in churches > > Organs didn't arrive in PARISH churches in the Anglican Communion until > the late 17th - early 18th century, and a good number of them were > "barrel" organs without finger keyboards, having a few simple metrical > psalm tunes "pinned" on a rotating wooden barrel, something like a large =   > music box. A single handle provided the energy for both the wind and the =   > rotation of the barrel, making for some interesting tempo changes if the =   > pumper got tired (chuckle).    
(back) Subject: Organs in Parish Churches pre 17th century From: "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:49:06 +0100   There were, in fact, organs in parish churches well before the 17th = century. They were discarded during the reformation and were re-introduced in the 17th century.   Alan Taylor London     Organs didn't arrive in PARISH churches in the Anglican Communion until = the late 17th - early 18th century, and a good number of them were "barrel" organs without finger keyboards,   Bud             --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004    
(back) Subject: Cresc and Decresc in French Music From: "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:58:14 +0100   The working of the swell pedal is left to the assistants to manage. On = many French organs it wouldn't be possible for the organist to do the task.   Alan Taylor London     Andy Lawrence wrote: > To whoever mentioned the hitchdown swell pedal on Frank's organ: good > point, and well taken and appreciated. In fact, I think the point is = very > important, and very interesting to me because I did not know that. However, > I'd like to point out (I'm sure you already knew this) that it is = possible > to have smooth crescendos and diminuendos with a hitchdown pedal... as long > as the right foot is free. (Which obviously is not always the case). > > I have never done this but since I am a strong believer in registrants, I've > considered having a registrant operate a hitchdown pedal for me (in = order to > simulate a balanced pedal), or even for a balanced pedal that is too far to > the right, in which case the helper could operate it without interfering > with my pedaling. Team effort organ playing is fun! >       --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004    
(back) Subject: adapting French music to American instruments From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:17:02 EDT   Here in the States, we face two issues when playing French music. I = guess, it also applies to Baroque music. First, most of our church sanctuaries = lack the acoustics and space to make the music bloom, and secondly, the organs =   just don't have the proper stops. Let's face it...one can't properly = pull off the Franck Grand Piece Symphonique on a 1926 9 rank duplexed and unified Moller (or Pilcher or any other typical builder of that era) at the = First Baptist Church of Podunkville. Picture this...a lovely little room, = seating about 275 people, plush red carpet, padded pews, heavy velvet drapes over the baptistry--you all know the type of room I'm describing. Reverb time? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! The sound dies before the note is released at the = console. The organ, a lovely example of 1920's organ building, but of the 9 ranks, = four of which are reeds (Vox Humana, Clarinet, Orchestral Oboe, and Horn) and the = other ranks, (Open Diapason, Stopped Diapason, Melodia, Viole, Celeste) NONE of =   them are the character that Franck would have known. The acoustics = surely aren't what ANY French composer would have known, unless they had been to = America on a concert tour and experienced American churches of that era. It is possible to play the French works on organs like the aformentioned organs--we've all done it, but we have to use our ears. We have to = listen and work to get the most authentic type of sound. Sure, on some instruments, = it's just not possible to get a close sound, but on "American Classic" organs, =   the sound can be approximated. The detriment to the sound, here, though, = are the acoustics that we work in. How many of us play in churches with less = than a second of reverb? Parish churches in Europe would classify as = cathedrals to most Americans. Look at all the new churches being built in the US today...they are carpeted, cushioned, and built for creature = comfort--"God's living room" is a more apt description. They don't look like a church, they are =   auditoriums. The same arguments apply to properly interpreting Baroque music. How = could one properly play Bach on that same organ I described above? It would be = an interesting stretch. Yes, you could play orchestral transcriptions of it =   without any problem, but if you truly wanted to play it and get a clear registration, it would be tough. I'm not saying that I don't like American Classic organs, DON'T get me = wrong here...I'm just saying that it's hard work to get an authentic = registration. It's just that we have to follow the composer's registrations AND use = our ears. When playing on American instruments, it's much more important to = think and listen, which requires being extremely informed as to what = instruments the composer was acquainted with, what organ they were playing at the = time, etc. We can't just go about registering willy-nilly as to what suits our = whim at the time. There was a reason that the composer requested a certain stop choice, however we have to translate that into a suitable alternative on American =   organs--by using our brains and our ears. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: RE: Your opinion From: "John Jarvis" <jljarvis@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:02:02 -0700   Is this where all of the "Left-footed Larrys" came from? Or was that = the influence of Hammond organs?   =20   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Best Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 5:45 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Your opinion   =20   I recall at least one American teacher who would on occasion insist his students pedal something like the adagio from the Franck A minor chorale using only the left foot so as to more closely duplicate what Franck = would have had to do. Sometimes doing all left foot pedaling in that work clarified phrasing significantly. Daniel Roth showed similar lack of concern for pedal legato at a master class I attended. Oh well -- it = all makes for interesting discussion no matter what!   Steve Best in Utica, NY     Gfc234@aol.com wrote:         In a message dated 10/17/04 4:49:24 PM, stevebest@usadatanet.net writes:           Remembering where Franck's swell pedal was located (on the far right) = and understanding that it was a hook-down swell pedal that didn't say open = by itself unless the pedal was in one of the hooks ... I'm wondering about = the "as long as you don't break the legato AT ALL." Franck would have had = no choice but to break the legato. Is my recollection correct?     As far as I am concerned, the rule with French music to maitain an = absolute legato--or at least create the illusion of one by making the top and = bottom voices seamless- here's how:   Toe/heel substitution I've also heard that it is a practice that a registrant sometimes = operates the spoon       =20   ****************************************************************** "Pipe = Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & = related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: = mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:=20  
(back) Subject: Re: "caged rage" and C-C swell boxes From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:15:22 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: Gfc234@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 2:48 AM Subject: Re: "caged rage" and C-C swell boxes       In a message dated 10/18/04 2:21:06 AM, quilisma@cox.net writes:         >> C-C virtually invented the "caged rage" sound of Full Swell to Reeds >> with the box closed ... he was inspired in part by the permanently >> boxed-in Echo divisions of the late Spanish baroque organs, and those >> glorious Spanish reeds ... the C-C family is from a border province ... >> the English got it from C-C ... or they invented it simultaneously, or >> whatever (chuckle), depending on who tells the story (grin)       > I thought it was Abraham Jordan, 1712-St. Magnus the Martyr--could be wrong > though.   It may well have been Abraham Jordan who introduced the swellbox to = England in 1712, but Bud was referring to the characteristic "full swell" SOUND produced by chorus reeds. Jordan was involved in importing sherry from Spain besides being an organ builder, and probably like Cavaill=E9-Coll = got the idea of the Swell from Spanish organs. His swell, however, was a = simple box with a lid that opened, rather than the later style of louvred swell. It also fulfilled a rather different tonal function, nearer in some ways = to a solo division than a modern swell. It was generally of short compass, often starting at tenor F, so that it could generally only be used for the right hand, and soft stops on the choir organ would be used to accompany = it. It would therefore generally be used for providing expression to solo = stops. Occasionally, however, you get slow movements with chords in the right = hand to be played on (probably, full) swell with the right hand only, as in Stanley's op. 5 no. 8, but this would hardly be a "caged rage" effect. = The swell pedal would not only be the hitch-down type, but in the earliest = days did not even have a way of hitching it down, so that the default position was closed and it was only possible to have it open when one's foot was resting on it. A typical complete swell would have the following stops:   Open Diapason Stopt Diapason Principal Cornet III ranks Trumpet Hautboy Clarion   Smaller organs might just have Open Diapason, Principal and Trumpet, or = even just a solitary Hautboy.   Bud's point was that Cavaill=E9-Coll was responsible for the "modern" = sound of the swell with its chorus reeds. Mostly, I think, this is true, though Cavaill=E9-Coll's R=E9cit divisions rarely included a 16' reed except in = very large instruments. The inclusion of a 16' reed as part of the essential full swell sound is, I think, largely an English invention, going back to builders like William Hill and Henry Willis in the middle of the = nineteenth century.   John Speller