PipeChat Digest #4841 - Tuesday, October 19, 2004
 
Re: Economy of motion and technique (very long!)
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: Grape Juice and Organs for Weddings
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: wicks solo division
  by "LBoekeloo" <lboekeloo@triton.net>
Grape juice et al.  Long and theological and philosophical
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Municipal Organ website update
  by "Will Scarboro" <whs1325@yahoo.com>
Re: Grape juice et al. =A0Long and theological and philosophical
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: Nilson Pedal Technique
  by "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca>
Re: Michael 1 and 2
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Municipal Organ website update
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Grape Juice and Organs for Weddings
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Pedaling in Bach etc
  by "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk>
thanks
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Economy of motion and technique (very long!) From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:11:27 -0500   Dear Stephen,   Rubbish? How very kind of you! In true PIPEORG-L form! Thank you for = the academic "history" lesson regarding Victorian organ technique, but = quite unnecessary I assure you. I was trained in the same tradition (as = are most American organists). You missed the point entirely.   My point was that American organists just might find it a bit = challenging to play historic European organs with there flat (or = replacement straight concave non-standardized) pedal boards for the = first time with the same Economy of Movement to which they are trained = and accustomed to at an AGO console. This is simply a fact. =20   Since we are discussing Victorian academic organ technique, you omitted = the tradition of women at the organ console keeping their knees tightly = together at all times for the sake of modesty ... a bit out of style = these days don't you think? Or do you insist on that as well? It's = true that no one can "prove" that Bach, or other Baroque Masters played = with toes only. However, that is the accepted European tradition of = training organists isn't it? Maybe that has changed since I was = studying in Germany so many years ago now. Somehow, I doubt it. Of = course, European organists and teachers know so little of the art.... = though I never saw Kraft or Walcha use their heel ... not ever. Many = times, I observed in amazement as both moved to the far end of the bench = ..... and back again to center.... while playing Bach and Buxtehude. = Guess they had it all wrong too. Could it be that these men would have = failed your class? Their technique was RUBBISH after all. Somehow, I = doubt that also.   Perhaps it might benefit American teachers and organ students today to = learn and master both techniques of pedal playing. Contrary to your = opinion, the American way of organ playing isn't the only accepted = technique.   Your "tone" does leave much to be desired.... Despite your opinion of = me, I shall not take up the guitar this day. I remain confident that I = just might know a little something about organ performance.   Kind Regards,   Tim Grenz=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stephen Roberts=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:00 AM Subject: Economy of motion and technique (very long!)     Dear List,   Tim (Octaaf@charter.net) wrote about historic organs in Europe and = listed organs in France among them. Tim then made the following = statement: "The precept of "Economy of Motion" is NOT an option on these = organs." This is rubbish. The kind of technique that until recently = was taught as the standard approach in American conservatories was = directly derived from the Franco-Belgian school of organ technique, as = established by Lemmens, and further developed by his pupils, notably = Widor, Guilmant, and Gigout. The latter three men were the organ = professors at the Conservatoire between the death of Franck and Dupre's = appointment in the mid-1920's. All of these distinguished performers = played flat, straight pedalboards on instruments with mechanical and = Barker lever action. Dupre' continued to teach the same principles that = Widor and Guilmant had taught to him, and his pupil, Rolande Fa! = lcinelli, continued the tradition until her retirement some few years = ago.   The method books of Lemmens and Dupre' actually contain very little = commentary. They depended very much on the teacher, who was supposed to = be trained in the same school. It was up to the teacher to provide the = verbal explanations, and to observe the student carefully to correct the = slightest variance from this approach. If you wish to get an idea of = what this kind of training was like, you should read pp. 55-81 of Rollin = Smith's book, <Louis Vierne: Organist of Notre Dame Cathedral>. Those = pages are the beginning of the chapter entitled "Widor's Class" and are = taken directly from the memoirs of Louis Vierne, <Mes Souvenirs>. = Vierne quotes Widor, and also provides commentary of his own. I shall = quote from that material to provide a refutation of what Tim had = written.   On page 69, Vierne says "To correct our technical imperfections he = began by showing us the proper position of the body at the keyboard, = forbidding us not only ridiculous gestures, useless as well as = unaesthetic, but also all useless motions, no matter how slight." = Vierne then quotes these famous words from Widor: =20 "All unjustified movement is harmful because it is a waste of time = time and strength. Before deciding that a movement is inevitable its = usefulness must have been ascertained during the period of slow = practice..." That passage is well known to most of you, and I will not = quote the rest of it. This attitude toward the technique of playing a = keyboard instrument was derived directly from CPE Bach, who in turn says = that he learned everything from his father. On page of 43 in the = Mitchell translation of the CPE Bach essay, we read the following:=20   "If [the performer] understands the correct principles of fingering = and has not acquired the habit of making unnecessary gestures, he will = play the most difficult things in such a manner that the motion of his = hands will be barely noticeable; moreover, everything will sound as if = presented no obstacles to him."   Compare that to the remainder of the passage from Widor: after the = statement above, Widor goes on to say that if one follows his advice = "...you will play every virtuoso piece in its exact tempo without = difficulty." Vierne tells us that CPE Bach was one of the composers who = was discussed in Widor's class. It is a certainty that Widor had read = every word of CPE Bach's <Versuch>, and his technical approach was = completely congruent to it in most important respects.   But what of pedal technique, the topic that provoked this discussion = in the first place? Widor again articulates the principles of good = pedal technique: "Never attack the key with a flat foot, but with the = inner edge of the sole. Keep the feet in constant contact with the edge = of the two black keys, never playing the white notes near the back of = the pedal except in substituting feet or crossing. Attack the black = notes on the extreme front edge to facilitate, if necessary, sliding = onto a white one. Never attack the keys perpendicularly or stomp on = them...but slide along lightly over the smallest possible distance to = avoid unneccessary noise." This is exactly the kind of technique that = is described in the Gleason <Method of Organ Playing> which has been the = most commonly used and influential method book in the USA for the past = 50 years or more.   Lemmens and Dupre' do not provide any description of the system of = measuring intervals that Gleason advocates. But where did that system = originate? Once again, Vierne quotes Widor and provides the answer:   "The organist has fourteen fingers: ten on his hands, and four on his = feet. Here is the only rational way to develop the supplementary hand = represented by the two feet: generally, the knees, heels, and toes must = be touching. Then, the greatest stretch of the toes--knees heels = together--gives a fifth. The greatest stretch of the legs--knees = together--gives an octave. As soon as the foot stops playing, it should = immediately rejoin the one that is playing, in the normal position; to = avoid all imperfect movement."   Now the next sentence provides the clincher. I know that using = capital letters is the equivalent of shouting to some people, but I want = to emphasize three words very strongly. Widor now pronounces the = infamous words:   "With the pedals, as with the manuals, ECONOMY OF MOVEMENT must = determine the choice of pedaling. This means that when presented with = several possibilities, one must choose the one that requires the least = motion."   So there you have it. Those principles of pedal technique come from = Widor, and they were no doubt taught to him by Lemmens. Neither man = ever played a concave, radiating pedalboard that I'm aware of, and = certainly not an AGO standard one. Vierne also says on page 91 that = Widor remained "motionless in the center of the bench..."=20   I was trained in these principles by Mildred Andrews, who had studied = with Dupre'. Miss Andrews' teachers had been pupils of Guilmant, Widor, = and Vierne. What I learned from her 35 years ago was in exact agreement = with everything that Vierne writes. I remember thinking when I read = Vierne's words in Rollin Smith's book for the first time, "It's as if = Miss Andrews were standing there speaking to me when I was her student = so long ago." I discussed this kind of training with Daniel Roth last year. Daniel = told me that it was exactly what he had learned from Rolande Falcinelli, = who was Dupre's chosen successor at the Conservatoire.   I can also tell you that I myself have played all sorts of historic = instruments on four continents. These principles, with some adaptations = for each situation, work well. One can't use the interval system of = measuring very well on an early French classical pedalboard, but it = still works on the pedals of the Wender, Silbermann, and Hildebrandt = organs that Bach knew. On the other hand, if one keeps one's feet in = contact with the keys at all times, and slides over the keys rather than = lifting them, as Widor advocates, one quickly develops a sense of = relationship and spatial reference on any pedalboard of any kind. That = allows the player to adapt very quickly to those old organs and to play = very accurately, even if one cannot use the heels at all. I've tried it = at Houdan (which has its original French classic pedalboard), and old = organs in Austria, Germany, and Italy. It works.   Some will say, "Well, Bach didn't play that way." Or did he? How do = we know? The fact is that we don't. The earliest pedal markings we = have are in Tobias Krebs score of J.S. Bach's Orgelbuechlein chorale, = "In Dir ist Freude". Those markings only indicate left and right. We = don't have any description of how Bach taught his pupils to play the = pedals, though the method books of Bach's pupils and those of his school = of playing do describe extensive use of the heel. Johann Samuel Petri = (1767 and 1782) is the first to include complete pedalings indicating = use of both toes and heels. He uses heels a great deal, especially in = scale playing. He also describes playing four note chords with the = feet, which obviously require heels. People were just the same then as = now. There aren't any paintings of three or four legged people before = 1800, nor after 1800 for that matter. Significantly, Petr! i studied = with none other than Wilhelm Friedemann Bach. Since there is not one = single pedal indication before those two sources I just mentioned, there = is not one single solitary shred of evidence for the idea that Bach = played with an all toes technique. If there is, I challenge anyone to = provide it. The descriptions of pedal technique up until the beginning = of the 19th. century by Petri, Knecht, and Kittel don't describe the = interval system of measuring, however. But that doesn't necessarily = prove that it wasn't used or taught: Lemmens and Dupre' don't describe = it in their method books either, but they most certainly used it. The = fact is that we simply do not know how organists before 1767 pedaled = anything.   To discuss this subject in any real detail would require a thick book, = not a posting on this forum. But I can say that all of the writings I = have read on keyboard technique, beginning with the Fundamentbuch of = Hans Buchner and continuing down to the present day, have been in = remarkable agreement about the idea of economy of motion. This is a = time honored principle of good keyboard and organ playing, not some = modern American innovation.=20   Stephen Roberts Western CT State University, Danbury, CT        
(back) Subject: Re: Grape Juice and Organs for Weddings From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:39:40 -0700       First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois wrote:   > Randy........I have seen a number of serious articles analyzing Greek > texts and "proving" that Jesus used grape juice and not wine at the Last > Supper. For most of us, it doesn't matter much one way or the other. > I'm from a grape juice tradition, and, frankly, I prefer it just because > there are so many alcohol problems in our culture. >   I agree, Dennis, and I'm from the "if it isn't unfortified grape wine, it isn't VALID" tradition (chuckle).   A number of years ago, Pope Paul VI recognized the problem, and gave permission for the use of non-alcoholic "wine" for alcoholic priests and communicants, when Rome started to give the chalice to the laity again.   That permission was subsequently withdrawn, which isn't a problem for the laity, since they can receive the Host only ... RCs-Anglicans-Lutherans hold that either Species contains the Whole; but the priest has to consume the remaining wine, unless he's celebrating with a deacon, and that's not all that common, at least in most US RC parishes. It's far more likely THESE days for the DEACON to be officiating at Mass of the Pre-Sanctified without a PRIEST, given the shortage of the latter.   The wine was never a problem in the Anglican Church because the rubrics specifically allow for ANYONE to consume the remaining Bread AND Wine, providing it's done reverently, IN the church, and either IMMEDIATELY after communion, or IMMEDIATELY after the service.   As to JESUS using grape juice, hello! Desert culture. Lack of potable water. No refrigeration. Natural yeast in the air. Leather wineskins. Put grape juice in same; leave in hot sun; what results isn't GOOD wine, but it's DEFINITELY fermented (chuckle).   The Egyptians were making beer 5,000 B.C. ... probably for the same reason ... lotsa grain, not much water, except when the Nile flooded.   This takes us into the whole biblical-criticism-in-light-of-midrash-and-contemporary-secular-history, so I'm gonna shut up now (grin).   The "no-musical-instruments" Christian church in our town always had either a vocal quartet or the full choir at weddings and funerals ... they sang the bride or the body in and out, usually with familiar hymns. They DID have one treacly vocal arrangement of the Bridal Chorus with semi-sacred words, but, surprisingly enough, they didn't use it very = often.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: RE: wicks solo division From: "LBoekeloo" <lboekeloo@triton.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:35:29 -0400   Wicks has returned to the larger scales that were known in the 40s and 50s as evidenced in the new instrument going into First Congregational Church in Kalamazoo, Michigan.   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of David Scribner Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 1:35 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: wicks solo division   At 10:53 AM -0500 10/19/04, Michael David wrote: >It appears that the seller is Berghaus who is either re-building or >replacing the rather substantial Wicks that was reputedly voiced by,,, help >me out here, an Englishman who did work for Wicks in the first third of the >20th century,,,,   The WICKS dates from 1958, well after the time that Henry Vincent Willis worked with the WICKS Company from c. 1935 to 1942. As i remember from playing it many, many years ago the tonal ideas were based on the large WICKS from 1950 at St. Ita Church in Chicago which was based on the St. Mary's Cathedral (?) in Peoria, IL.   David   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>      
(back) Subject: Grape juice et al. Long and theological and philosophical From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:57:17 -0500   Randy--re: the grape juice and the New Testament. Yes, I know you're background is in the same historic movement (not the same strand, obviously). I'm not a Greek scholar, and I don't feel prepared to comment on the grape juice/wine controversy. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me.   Where do all the assumptions come from? Primarily from the philosophy of John Locke and 19th century Scottish Common Sense Philosophy. You have to remember that this began as a 19th century movement, and A. Campbell was a student in Scotland. John Locke thought (and philosophy majors among us, please note, I'm not writing a technical treatise here) that the mind at birth was a blank slate ("tabula rasa"). If, therefore, all observed exactly the same data, all would come out at the same place. That was the theory, and obviously it doesn't seem very credible to most today--but we've got a lot of study in psychology and personality since then.   Now apply this to the Bible: If the Bible is the inspired record of God's interactions with humankind, and if the New Testament shows a "pattern" for what the church was--and should be, according to the apostles--then, if we can all take off the "spectacles" of our pre-conceived notions and examine the Bible for what it really says, we could "restore" the church of the New Testament and all come together in one huge church because we would all agree. Thus, the movement was a "restoration" movement--but the purpose of the restoration was the unity of the church! And there, Randy, you find the ecumenical emphasis which is so important in your branch (and mine), though the unity angle has been divorced from the restoration angle.   Unfortunately, it is impossible for all of us to remove the "spectacles" of our prior experiences, and even if we could, we probably wouldn't see the same thing anyway. But that was the idea--and for its time, it was a noble goal--and it was an educated direction, not a bunch of ignorant folk who were uneducated.   And most of us have "systems" whereby we interpret the Word. Look at Lutheranism's emphasis on "sole fide." All of Catholicism hinges on--and stands or falls on--the interpretation of ONE verse of scripture: "Thou art Peter and on this rock I will build my church...." Grant the Catholic interpretation, and the entire system falls into place. Deny it and you have thousands of Protestant groups.   I'm not here attacking ANY Christian group.........I'm just trying to point out that we all have our interpretive lenses and our fulcra on which our theologies rest.   Dennis Steckley   "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss        
(back) Subject: Municipal Organ website update From: "Will Scarboro" <whs1325@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:54:14 -0700 (PDT)   Dear List Members, I just wanted to let you all know that I have just compleated a major = update of my municipal organ project website. I've added both my project = guidelines and the list of organs that are included in my research. There = is a lot of new stuff to read through so enjoy! The URL is: http://home.comcast.net/~whscarboro/ Sincerely, Will Scarboro     --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
(back) Subject: Re: Grape juice et al. =A0Long and theological and philosophical From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:56:40 -0400   We've gotten derailed once again on non-germane topics . . . can we get = back on course?  
(back) Subject: Re: Nilson Pedal Technique From: "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:57:20 -0400     > For those who are wishing to order, can anyone give the proper name of > the book? Is it as titled above or no?   http://amres.com/catalogs/MUBK.asp   LK3728MU Music Book: "A System of Technical Studies in Pedal Playing for the Organ" by L. Nilson, translated from the Swedish by J. E. Barkworth. 1904. 72p.   $10.00    
(back) Subject: Re: Michael 1 and 2 From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:02:20 -0500   To Randolph Runyon, who wrote, in part   >Are there other instances, I wonder, of the same name given to two tunes? > > Pastor Freed responded   >Most definitely, Randy. Can't come up with an example at the moment. > > to which I would note that off of the top of my head I could come up with two, included in this list of names attached to two different tunes included in the English Hymnal, _Hymns Ancient and Modern, Revised_: "Alleluia dulce carmen", "Almsgiving", "Hereford", "Jerusalem", "Laus Deo", St. Agnes", "St. Bernard", "St. Cecilia", "St. Columba", "St. George", "St. Thomas", "Salva Festa Dies", "Sine nomine", "Waltham", and "Westminster". If one consults mutliple hymnals, I'm sure one would find more, as I'm sure there is a tune by someone other than Goss named "Lauda anima", and I vaguely recall other instances, as well.   ns    
(back) Subject: Re: Municipal Organ website update From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:09:37 -0500   A wonderful website. I particularly like the photograph you have found = of Edwin Lemare et al. at the Panama-Pacific Exposition. =20   John Speller,   ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Will Scarboro=20 To: Pipechat ; Piporg-l=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 1:54 PM Subject: Municipal Organ website update     Dear List Members,   I just wanted to let you all know that I have just compleated a major = update of my municipal organ project website. I've added both my project = guidelines and the list of organs that are included in my research. = There is a lot of new stuff to read through so enjoy! =20   The URL is: http://home.comcast.net/~whscarboro/=20  
(back) Subject: Re: Grape Juice and Organs for Weddings From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:40:34 EDT   In order for a church to be a "New Testament Church" does it have to = ignore all the teachings in the Old Testament and use it for history and prophesy = and worship as only the people in the New Testament did? What about the buildings, stained glass windows, etc. And do they throw = out the 10 Commandments and the Psalms? Lee  
(back) Subject: Pedaling in Bach etc From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:22:11 +0200   Tim Grenz wrote: > It's true that no one can "prove" that Bach, or other Baroque Masters = played with toes only. > However, that is the accepted European tradition of training organists isn't it?   I doubt there's one single European tradition. At least in Scandinavia several ways of executing Baroque pedaling are being thaught. But it's a fact that many famous teachers are pretty dogmatic about playing with toes only in Baroque music.   My personal opinion is that old Bach used heels if the organ he played permitted it. I really can't think of Bach, as the inventive musician he surely was, not using his heels if that could improve his playing. I've never played a Silbermann, Hildebrandt, or Trost, but what others have told me about them is that using ones heels is often perfectly feasible. The only "proof" I've seen is a DVD video of the beautifully restored Trost organ in Waltershausen being played with heels all around the place <grin>.   When playing I tend to care more about making it sound musical than making it "authentic". I don't have Bach's musical genious (at least not all of it <g>), nor his organ, nor his audience. As I believe it has been mentioned in previous discussions on this list, the loudest sounds a normal citizen of the 1700's would experience (except for war) probably came from a pipe organ. Bach's time was so different from ours that it's very difficult to compare.   We, as historians AND musicians, need to make every possible effort to learn as much as possible about the times past, yet enrich our knowledge with new ideas and inspirations. That makes us able to go further, preserving the heritage of our ancestors for the coming generations. It's impossible to reproduce the past, but it's always available as a fundament to build upon (at least it should be!).   - Jarle http://jarle.moo.no  
(back) Subject: thanks From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:41:00 -0400   Thanks, Dennis, for explaining the Scottish and Lockeian connections. = This is absolutely fascinating! And your other point about fulchra is well = taken, too.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu