PipeChat Digest #4842 - Tuesday, October 19, 2004
 
Economy of motion, yet again
  by "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net>
OFF-TOPIC (then I'll hush) <g> ... "all Catholics"
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
how to name a hymn
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: wicks solo division
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Re: how to name a hymn
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: how to name a hymn
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
One more for Lee........delete if you don't want the off topic
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: Pedaling in Bach etc
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: Pedaling in Bach etc
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Michael 1 and 2
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: Pedaling in Bach etc
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
RE: wicks solo division
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
Re: Michael 1 and 2
  by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Pedaling in Bach etc
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: OFF-TOPIC (then I'll hush) <g> ... "all Catholics"
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
RE: Pedaling in Bach etc
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
RE: Pedaling in Bach etc
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: OFF-TOPIC (then I'll hush) <g> ... "all Catholics"
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Grape Juice and Organs for Weddings
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
 

(back) Subject: Economy of motion, yet again From: "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:43:15 -0700 (PDT)   Dear List, Harry Grove quite rightly questions whether we are necessarily obliged to = do things the way that performers have done in the past. I believe that = we are only to the extent that it seems to produce the desired result and = effect for us today. I used historical precedent to back up my point, = not because I think it necessary to hide under the coattails of Widor or = Lemmens pr CPE Bach, but because the question was raised in an earlier = posting, and historical precedent cited as corroborating evidence. I = submitted my admittedly overlong posting to refute what I believed to be a = mistake. As excellent as I believe the Lemmens/Widor/Dupre approach to technique to = be, there have always been very fine organists who stood outside that = tradition. I would hazard a guess to say that in Europe, this approach is = the exception nowadays, and certainly not the rule. It was never very = popular in German speaking countries, for example. I would say that the = majority of European organ students today learn technique that is based = more on early music. That is an oversimplification perhaps, but I don't = think that I'm too far wrong in that assumption. There are some very fine = organists who will have nothing at all to do with the Lemmens method. = Even in Lemmens home country, Belgium, Lemmens' method is hardly = discussed today at all, according to what I've been told by Belgian = organists. Still, one thing is certain: this system works very well to = produce the kind of technique needed for playing French music from 1850 to = the present. I don't think that anyone can deny that it has also produced some organists with stupendous technique: Widor, Vierne, = Dupre', Demessieux, and Marie-Madeleine Durufle'-Chevalier among them. = And it still produces performers with great technique, if the playing of = Guillou, Hakim, and Latry is considered. I can also tell you from first = hand experience that it is a system that can be used in teaching to = produce excellent results in a relatively short period of time. On the = other hand, I don't think that any knowledgeable person today could = advocate the total legato approach to Bach of the "French Bach tradition". = Stephen Roberts Western CT State University, Danbury, CT USA  
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC (then I'll hush) <g> ... "all Catholics" From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:50:50 -0700   We have a problem in the West ... Rome is the only "patriarchy" (diocese founded by an Apostle -- Peter) ... the rest are in the East ... Jerusalem, Antioch, etc.   As a result, in popular usage, "Catholic" in the West has come to mean ROMAN Catholic, when in fact there are THREE *major* branches of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church worldwide, and quite a few smaller ones:   1. Roman Catholic, composed of the Latin Rite, Byzantine Rite, Ruthenian Rite, Carpatho-Russian Rite, Greek Rite, etc. ... the Latin Rite is most common, and is now celebrated in many vernacular languages.   2. Anglican - St. Joseph of Arimathea (so legend has it) carried Our Lord's Crown of Thorns to Glastonbury, and establish the Church in the British Isles. Be that as it may, the British Church has existed from Apostolic times. There were British bishops at the Council of Whitby, c. 400 A.D. From 600 A.D. until approximately 1552 A.D., the British Church was under the jurisdiction (some would say domination) of Rome. Since then, it has been an autocephalous Church of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.   The Anglican Church presently is composed of autocephalous national Churches and Provinces, which is what the flap about the Windsor Report is all about ... each Province is independent; the Windsor Report seeks to change that, and endow the Archbishop of Canterbury with pope-like powers. We settled all THAT in 1549 (chuckle) ... "no foreign bishop hath dominion in these Lands" (grin).   3. Eastern Orthodox, composed mostly of autocephalous national churches. The Patriarch of Constantinople, like the Archbishop of Canterbury, is "first among equals," but has no special JURIDICAL authority.   Smaller branches (both eastern and western) include:   Old Catholics (principally in Holland and Germany) Swedish Lutherans (who retained the Apostolic Succession and bishops) Coptic (north Africa ... mostly Egypt and Ethiopia) Armenian Old Believers (Russia) Liberal Catholics (US and England) Orthodox Church in America Polish National Catholics (principally in the US, not Poland)   etc. etc. etc.   ALL, with the EXCEPTION of the Roman Catholic Church, interpret "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church" to mean that Christ imparted the Power of the Keys ("whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven") to ALL the Apostles and their successors, not just to Peter.   It wasn't until the reign of Gregory the Great, nearly a thousand years later, than Rome began to assert "universal jurisdiction and primacy;" papal infallibility wasn't asserted until the 19th century at the First Vatican Council.   In recent years, Lutherans who hold the Apostolic Faith have taken to using the name "Lutheran Catholics", as have the breakaway "Anglican Catholic Churches." That's CAPITAL "C", which MEANS holding the Apostolic Faith, as opposed to lower-case "c", which means universal.   More church history than you EVER wanted to know (chuckle) ...   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: how to name a hymn From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:45:19 -0400   on 10/19/04 3:02 PM, Noel Stoutenburg at mjolnir@ticnet.com wrote:   > To Randolph Runyon, who wrote, in part >   >> > to which I would note that off of the top of my head I could come up > with two, included in this list of names attached to two different = tunes....   Thanks. Though I am a little confused by all the titles you provided, I do get the idea.   I see in Cyberhymnal that there's a tune named "Metzler's Redhead." I'm just wondering.... was it named after someone's mistress?   ;-)     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu     >    
(back) Subject: Re: wicks solo division From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:10:23 -0500   Yes, David, that is correct. Thanks, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:34 PM Subject: RE: wicks solo division     > At 10:53 AM -0500 10/19/04, Michael David wrote: > >It appears that the seller is Berghaus who is either re-building or > >replacing the rather substantial Wicks that was reputedly voiced by,,, help > >me out here, an Englishman who did work for Wicks in the first third of the > >20th century,,,, > > The WICKS dates from 1958, well after the time that Henry Vincent > Willis worked with the WICKS Company from c. 1935 to 1942. As i > remember from playing it many, many years ago the tonal ideas were > based on the large WICKS from 1950 at St. Ita Church in Chicago which > was based on the St. Mary's Cathedral (?) in Peoria, IL. > > David > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: Re: how to name a hymn From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:11:40 -0500   Randolph Runyon wrote:   >I see in Cyberhymnal that there's a tune named "Metzler's Redhead." I'm >just wondering.... was it named after someone's mistress? > As I recall, Redhead edited either a hymnal, or metrical Psalter, in which some tunes were attributed to others, and others not attributed, and may or may not have been composed by Redhead. "Metzler's Redhead" appears in this collection at number 66. The tune that appears in that collection at number 76 is also widely used, and is sometimes called "Petra". SBH uses Petra as an alternate tune for "Rock of Ages, cleft for me".   ns  
(back) Subject: Re: how to name a hymn From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:13:11 -0500       The subject line on the message Randolph is a bit misleading, as the word "Hymn" usually is used to refer to the text; the music is (in my experience, anyway) generally referred to as the hymntune.   ns    
(back) Subject: One more for Lee........delete if you don't want the off topic From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:23:50 -0500   Sorry, but Lee asked some additional questions. We've gotten a bit afield, so if any want further conversation on this perhaps we should it by direct email...so I'll address Lee's concern here and that's it.   Lee--these churches would NOT ignore the Old Testament, including the 10 Commandments and Psalms, but they would not base doctrinal teachings of the church on it--ethical and moral teachings, yes, but not doctrinal ones. AFAIK, no church really does it any differently in that regard.   Things like buildings, stained glass, pews, hymnals, microphones, etc. are generally considered "aids" to worship and not "elements" of worship, and this is an important distinction to them. The churches in this strand themselves run the gamut from ultra conservation to ultra liberal (by THEIR standards). The narrow end will ONLY use one cup at Communion (that's the only NT example, remember!), and won't have graded Sunday School classes (not seen in the NT!). Sometimes you'll see on their church signs, "Church of Christ Meets Here" as opposed to "Church of Christ" to make it clear that the church is people, not a building! Again, for most of us a matter of semantics, but important to some.   We now return you to your normally scheduled programming   Dennis Steckley   "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss        
(back) Subject: Re: Pedaling in Bach etc From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:24:00 -0500   Dear Jarle,   I certainly agree that there is no single European tradition or method of organ playing. My experiences only relate to my own training in Germany during the 1970's. Even then, each of my teachers held to their own = unique approach to organ playing. The one commonality amongst them was playing Baroque music toes only. Even then, I was taught varying techniques including moving up and down the bench from "center". Believe me, this = was an entirely alien concept to me at first! I would also agree with you = that old Bach most likely did use his heels when feasible. There is no = evidence to the contrary, and it seems to me to be quite logical. You are = absolutely correct that it is the art of organ playing and the music which matters, = not narrow views on performance practice. I would enjoy learning more about = the techniques taught to organists in Scandinavia.   Cheers,   Tim Grenz      
(back) Subject: Re: Pedaling in Bach etc From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:46:05 EDT   the only correct way is the way I do it.............     and then only the way i did it THAT time as opposed to the next time.   so says one of my pre college day teachers.....but i like it.   dale in Florida using toes and heels and all 10 hand digits.    
(back) Subject: Re: Michael 1 and 2 From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 05:54:08 +0800   Most Hymnals I've seen use both "Ton-y-Botel" (Tune in a bottle) and "Ebene= zer" (stone of help) for the hymn "Once to Every Man and Nation", "O, the D= eep, Deep Love of Jesus", and/or "Hail, thou once despised Jesus" (others?)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Peery <cepeery@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: Michael 1 and 2 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:24:41 -0400   >=20 > Speaking of Tune Names: The tune for "My Shepherd Will supply my need"= =20 > (tune goes : dms mrm sd lsm) is given the name "Consolation" in the= =20 > Presbyterian hymnal but in my head is an minor/modal early American=20 > tune for that name. I always thought the right name for the Shepherd=20 > tune was "Resignation." So, in the case of Michael having two tunes=20 > now we have a tune with two names. (Say that five times fast.) > Chuck Peery > St. Louis   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: Re: Pedaling in Bach etc From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:14:25 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:22 PM Subject: Pedaling in Bach etc     > My personal opinion is that old Bach used heels if the organ he played > permitted it. I really can't think of Bach, as the inventive musician he > surely was, not using his heels if that could improve his playing.   Some of the best evidence that heels were used in eighteenth-century = Germany comes from two treatises on organ playing, published in the eighteenth century. One of these was Johann Samuel Petri's, "Anleitung zur = praktischen Musik" (1767), which not only advocates the use of both toe and heel, but even has passages in which the feet cross over or under each other. The other treatise was Daniel Gottlob T=FCrk's "Von den wichtigsten Pflichten eines Organisten" (1787), which states quite categorically, "Actually, = each foot takes the place of two fingers, since one plays with the toes and = with the heel." He even introduces markings, similar to the modern ^ o etc. to indicate which notes in some of his examples are to be played with the = heel and which with the toe. (See "Daniel Gottlob T=FCrk on the Role of the Organist in Worship (1787), translated by Margot Ann Greenlimb Woolard. Studies in Liturgical Musicology, No. 9, The Scarecrow Press, 2000, p. = 80.) What is especially interesting about T=FCrk, who was University Organist = of the University of Halle, is that he was a pupil of Gottfried August Homilius, who was himself a pupil of J. S. Bach. One of these writers was writing only sixteen years after Bach's death and the other was in the direct tradition of Bach, and neither of them gives the slightest = indication that playing with the heel was anything other than the normal practice in eighteenth-century Germany. The statement about each foot being equivalent to two fingers may even suggest that the maxim about organists having fourteen fingers, quoted from I think Widor in an earlier e-mail on this thread, might go back to J. S. Bach himself.   So there is good literary evidence that organists used their heels in eighteenth century Germany. Where is there any literary evidence that = they didn't?   John Speller      
(back) Subject: RE: wicks solo division From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:04:17 -0500   Yes, 1958. One learns more things after one posts:-)   Someone had mentioned the Willis ancestry during an AGO organ crawl in the early 90s but I must have missed the bit about it being third generation from HVW.   Nice space if a bit dead around the edges. It will be interesting to hear Len's "mature" sound when it's done.   Michael     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of David Scribner Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:35 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: wicks solo division     At 10:53 AM -0500 10/19/04, Michael David wrote: >It appears that the seller is Berghaus who is either re-building or >replacing the rather substantial Wicks that was reputedly voiced by,,, = help >me out here, an Englishman who did work for Wicks in the first third of = the >20th century,,,,   The WICKS dates from 1958, well after the time that Henry Vincent Willis worked with the WICKS Company from c. 1935 to 1942. As i remember from playing it many, many years ago the tonal ideas were based on the large WICKS from 1950 at St. Ita Church in Chicago which was based on the St. Mary's Cathedral (?) in Peoria, IL.      
(back) Subject: Re: Michael 1 and 2 From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:26:00 -0500       -----Original Message----- From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 05:54:08 +0800 Subject: Re: Michael 1 and 2   > Most Hymnals I've seen use both "Ton-y-Botel" (Tune in a bottle) and > "Ebenezer" (stone of help) for the hymn "Once to Every Man and Nation", > "O, the Deep, Deep Love of Jesus", and/or "Hail, thou once despised > Jesus" (others?)   "Thy Strong Word"      
(back) Subject: Re: Pedaling in Bach etc From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:38:31 -0500   Exactly Dale, exactly! LOL   Tim ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Keys4bach@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Pedaling in Bach etc     the only correct way is the way I do it.............     and then only the way i did it THAT time as opposed to the next time.   so says one of my pre college day teachers.....but i like it.   dale in Florida using toes and heels and all 10 hand digits.    
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC (then I'll hush) <g> ... "all Catholics" From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:55:46 -0600   Hello, Bud:   > As a result, in popular usage, "Catholic" in the West has come to mean > ROMAN Catholic, when in fact there are THREE *major* branches .. of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church worldwide, and quite > a few smaller ones:   * * *   > More church history than you EVER wanted to know (chuckle) ...   Perhaps, but it is very interesting to me, . . . only one who lives outside all that tradition in protest-ant persuasions.   F. Richard Burt     ..      
(back) Subject: RE: Pedaling in Bach etc From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:01:41 -0500   I'm beginning to wonder if I should continue to pretend to be an organist.   It was a bad day for classical organists today.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com (who heard the incumbent organist at a funeral at her old church today - and they thought I was crying for the deceased. But the day got much worse . . . .)   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Keys4bach@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:46 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Pedaling in Bach etc   the only correct way is the way I do it.............     and then only the way i did it THAT time as opposed to the next time.   so says one of my pre college day teachers.....but i like it.   dale in Florida using toes and heels and all 10 hand digits.      
(back) Subject: RE: Pedaling in Bach etc From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:19:22 +1300   >When playing I tend to care more about making it sound musical than making it "authentic". I don't have Bach's musical genious (at least not all of it <g>), nor his organ, nor his audience.   Hi, people. Just signed in again after seven weeks away, five of them in = the UK.   I'll jump in with both feet (toes and heels) and say that I've never found any organ pipes that sound different if played with toes-only as against toes-and-heels. Similarly, after a lecture here on a late 19thC 3m tracker by an academic organist some years ago, I was not convinced that pushing a key down without the use of the thumb makes any difference whatever to the speech of the pipes.   If this is so, and others may have discovered this for themselves, then we should be speaking of phrasing, not whether heels and thumbs are "correct" or not. Personally, I couldn't give an intercontinental hoot what the organist uses to push any key on manuals or pedals down, as long as the music wins.   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: OFF-TOPIC (then I'll hush) <g> ... "all Catholics" From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:28:16 +1300   >As a result, in popular usage, "Catholic" in the West has come to mean ROMAN Catholic, when in fact there are THREE *major* branches of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church worldwide, and quite a few smaller ones:   In fact, many people use the word "catholic" to mean those who hold to the catholic creeds as doctrinal standards, and that includes the Church of Scotland and many others.   >2. Anglican - St. Joseph of Arimathea (so legend has it) carried Our Lord's Crown of Thorns to Glastonbury, and establish the Church in the British Isles. Be that as it may, the British Church has existed from Apostolic times. There were British bishops at the Council of Whitby, c. 400 A.D. From 600 A.D. until approximately 1552 A.D., the British Church was under the jurisdiction (some would say domination) of Rome. Since then, it has been an autocephalous Church of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.   Hold that right there. The Synod of Whitby (not "Council") was held in the middle of the 7th century, not at the end of the 5th. The Church in = Britain is certainly very old - think of the martyrdom of St Alban at Verulamium, changing the name of the town for ever. Think of the British bishops who went to the Arles Council in Gaul in the 4th century. Think of Ninian, of Patrick, of Columba, of Aidan, all before Augustine set foot in Kent in = 597. Even then, the Queen met him on the beach, accmpnaied by her chaplains.   I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "British Church" of later times, = as the Celtic Church was only finally shoved out of sight centuries after the Synod of Whitby.   When we mean the catholic church, we can use that term. When we mean the Roman church, we can say so.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Grape Juice and Organs for Weddings From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:50:10 +0800   Not here Bud. I play for Saturday evening mass at one of the local RC Churches and communicants take communion in several ways. Some take the wafer only, some take wine and wafer and some dip the wafer in the wine. = As for whether alcoholic or non alcoholic wine is used, the Methodist Church = in Australia always used non alcoholic wine. Now in the Uniting Church (the union of Methodist, Congregational and most Presbyterian churches) there = is a divergence. In my church non-al wine is used but some churches use alcoholic. I can't see the importance of which is used, to us it is only symbolic anyway. Now some would disagree with that remark. Aren't we = getting a littl far from topic? Maybe it would be safer to stick to discussing organs. Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>   >> That permission was subsequently withdrawn, which isn't a problem for > the laity, since they can receive the Host only ... >>