PipeChat Digest #4857 - Friday, October 29, 2004
 
Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
Re: sources for parts, available editions of Handel organ concerti
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
Lynn Dobson Organ in the December 2004 Issue of Wokbench
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Re: Spookiest Music (was Halloween Organ)
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: Rooms and their "Keys" ... Ghost notes
  by "Garrison Johnson" <johnco18@comcast.net>
Re: Rooms and their "Keys" ... Ghost notes
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine
  by "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca>
Thanks! was: Re: Fwd: Atlantic City Convention Hall organs
  by "rgunther@cantv.net" <rgunther@cantv.net>
Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
Ebay Organ (longish)
  by "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net>
Re: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:18:26 -0500   Hi, I get a lot of woodworking magazines and I have seen NO article on pipe = organs in my memory. I am always on the lookout for unusual articles. Jim James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups (314) 608-4137 WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE! pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Jarvis=20 To: 'PipeChat'=20 Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:36 PM Subject: Organ in Wood worker magazine     I am not able to locate a recent post that gave a URL to an article = about organs that appears in a wood worker type of magazine. I would = appreciate an email sent to me directly with this URL. Also, can someone = tell me where the archives of these posts are kept? The archive list on = the Pipechat website only has archives through 2002.   Thanks in advance for your help.   John  
(back) Subject: Re: sources for parts, available editions of Handel organ concerti From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:27:56 -0500   Broude Brothers (broude@sover.net, 800 525 8559) has just published the Opus 4 concertos in facsimile, from the Walsh prints. I'm doing one on a concert November 20- these are very nice facsimiles, all in parts, no = score.   Paul Opel   >Are the Mercury/Biggs ed. still in print? What else is there besides the >Schott/Walcha? > >THANKS! > >Cheers, > >Bud > > > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>     http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: Lynn Dobson Organ in the December 2004 Issue of Wokbench From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:30:11 -0500   Here is a copy of the post that John Jarvis was asking about.   David   ***************************************************************************= ******** In addition to reading pipe organ stuff, I also subscribe to and read several wood working magazines. I was surprised when I opened the December issue of Workbench. They have 2 pages of mostly pictures to 2 organs by Lynn Dobson. They also give a link to Dobson Organs. While it gives little details it was good to see the pipe organ given some space in a popular wood working magazine.   you can see 2 of the pictures in small format at: http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/gallery/index.html   John C.Ziegler   -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Spookiest Music (was Halloween Organ) From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:42:18 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   I think I may agree with this!   My favourite performance of the Reubke is still an old LP cut by Roger Fisher on the organ of Chester Cathedral here in the UK.   Sinister is not the word for the opening!   Right from the first notes, you just know there's trouble brewing, and when God arises, you just want to "duck and cover."   Awesome!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       --- BlueeyedBear@aol.com wrote:     > IMO, the spookiest music i ever heard is the reubke > organ sonata, and the > spookiest performance of it i ever heard was john > weaver's at grace cathedral in > SF at the AGO convention. very atmospheric and > unbelievably violent!     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: RE: Rooms and their "Keys" ... Ghost notes From: "Garrison Johnson" <johnco18@comcast.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:24:00 -0400   Whenever two frequencies are mixed, the results are two added frequencies, the difference between the two originals and the SUM of the two. (High school physics!)   Jennie Mae & Garry J. The Johnsons 1913 Rockcreek Lane Flint MI 48507-2274 voice (810)233-7094 fax (810)233-7599   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Liquescent Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:31 PM To: anglican-music@stsams.org; PipeChat Subject: Rooms and their "Keys" ... Ghost notes         Doug wrote:   > >> > > Sometimes the works themselves set off extraordinary effects. The Agnus Dei > of the Victoria 'Missa Pro Victoria' a 9 has a remarkable passage where = a > tenth voices appears to materialize singing a high tonic. We caught it = on > tape once. The hair on my neck used to stand on end as we began the > movement knowing that ghost of Victoria was about to visit us if we got = it > right. > > > Doug Cowling > ___________________________________ > Director of Music & Liturgical Arts > Church of the Messiah > Toronto >   That's not illogical, given the complex harmonics sounding in a nine-voice chord ...   But I'm curious ... in organs, resultant tones are always BELOW the sounding pitches (or so I thought) ...   4 + 2 2/3 =3D 8' sound (sorta ... works best on notes 1-12) 8 + 5 1/3 =3D 16' sound (ditto) 16 + 10 2/3 =3D 32' sound (if you're lucky)   and so forth ... does anyone know of mixtures, cornets, etc. which take advantage of this phenomenon to create resultant tones ABOVE the sounding pitches, as Doug describes in the vocal parts of the Victoria?   Cheers,   Bud       ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Re: Rooms and their "Keys" ... Ghost notes From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:54:21 -0600   Hello, Jennie Mae & Garry:   > Whenever two frequencies are mixed, the results are two added frequencies, > the difference between the two originals and the SUM of the two. (High > school physics!)   That is true. BUT, most of the people trying to explain why we have mixtures rely on the strength that the they provide to the foundation, making the unison pitch stand out better. This assumes, of course, that the mixtures are properly tuned and blend well to create the sub partials, ....aka heterodynes.   I think that the upper partials, as you have accurately pointed out, generate the "brilliance" that most of us ignore. These upper partials logically extend above the normal auditory range of most of our human ears. I am getting old enough now that I don't hear the fundamental in the top two notes in the 2-foot rank, and rely on the sub partials to help me align the tuning collars properly. I am pleased that the pipe organ on which I work in my own church has mixtures that favor the more Romantic era.   F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs     ..      
(back) Subject: Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine From: "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:03:55 -0400     > I get a lot of woodworking magazines and I have seen NO article on pipe = organs in my memory.   this may be the address:   http://www.woodworking.com/articles/index.cfm?fa=3Dshow&id=3D476      
(back) Subject: Thanks! was: Re: Fwd: Atlantic City Convention Hall organs From: "rgunther@cantv.net" <rgunther@cantv.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:48:02 -0400   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:26:51 -0500   It looks like it may be just a facade James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups (314) 608-4137 WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE! pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:03 PM Subject: Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine     > >> I get a lot of woodworking magazines and I have seen NO article on pipe =   >> organs in my memory. > > this may be the address: > > http://www.woodworking.com/articles/index.cfm?fa=3Dshow&id=3D476 > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Organ in Wood worker magazine From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:57:03 -0500   Well, except for those bourdon pipes hanging over it on the = ceiling.......!   ;-)   --Tim   At 07:26 PM 10/29/2004, you wrote: >It looks like it may be just a facade    
(back) Subject: Ebay Organ (longish) From: "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:36:48 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)   >>It may have been phrased a bit more charitably, but that was the gist o= f it -- "Bug off, nosey people!"=0D =0D Hi List,=0D =0D This topic really pinched me into writing tonight. It is such a heart-breaking event to see organs fall out of use, and be sold or parted out. For those who deal with organs on a daily basis, who have a special sensitivity to what the larger picture of pipe organs is all about, the disposal of a pipe organ for seemingly little reason is a frustration of = the worst kind. It is hard to believe that something so beautiful, and lovea= ble can be so readily kicked out the door, particularly when they are well ag= ed organs, or original treasures. Such are the times that we face, and shal= l face only more as pipe organs fade from the Church's consciousness, and a= s leather and microchip alike proceed on their paths toward eventual failur= e.=0D =0D The first thought that comes to mind is that organs obviously mean different things to different people.=0D =0D What does the pipe organ mean to those who know and love them? Many admirers of the organ love the size and scope of the organ, the amazing capabilities and complexity. Many organ fans love seeing the organist wo= rk the stops, pedals, and keys, and marvel at the ability it takes to pull i= t off. Still more love the music. I too, love all of those things about t= he organ. For me, having such close relationships to many organs in a very, shall we say, personal manner, having performed emergency surgery on a ba= d pipe pouch, or fixed a sticky key, has increased my love for the organ in special ways. Activities like dislodging a giant moth from a pedal reed shallot are special behind-the-scenes moments that I look forward to. I enjoy the uniqueness of each instrument, learning their personalities, an= d doing all I can to make them sound their best. I love to improvise on ea= ch organ for a few minutes after a long day of tuning, to hear the organ si= ng is rewarding. I also love the organ because it has outlived many, and wi= ll outlive me. I love that the organ serves as a link to the past and futur= e, to hear what those have gone on have heard, and to send it forward for future ears. I believe the crest on the Blenheim Palace organ reads something like this:=0D =0D "In memory of happy days and as a tribute to this glorious home, we leave thy voice to speak within these walls when ours are still"=0D =0D That says it all for me. So many creative minds and man-hours went in= to building these great instruments. Some of the builders were organ nuts, like me. Some of them were bringing home the bacon, leathering up pneumatics for hours, worried about getting that flat tire on the model-t fixed. Many of them aren't with us anymore, but their organs are, and wh= at great organs they are!=0D =0D --- But I digress ---=0D =0D For the Church members, the organ is an expression of their first frui= t in celebrating Worship. Whether they raised the capital to build a new organ, or they contribute to the maintenance and renewal of their instrum= ent all of them have put their sweat and joy into one of the most identifiab= le parts of their Church, and they love their organs well, and show a committment to great music. For many of you, the organists, you have a special organ that is for all purposes your organ to use week after week.= =20 You know it better than anyone else, and you are the curator for your org= an. You know how to make it sound its best, and how to work your way around = the bugs when they pop up. You know how to make the best registrations and evoke the most expressive power that the instrument has to offer. For y= ou builders, you've poured a huge amount of effort and risk into building fantastic pipe organs. These organs are a literal expression of your creativity, and live on and on being shared with countless others.=0D =0D Beyond this, there are many details about corporate ownership, Church politics, organ modifications, and more, which I will leave to another ti= me.=0D =0D Now, back to the question. Is it really anyone else's business if a Church decides to sell off a pipe organ? Maybe, maybe not. But suffice = it to say that when an organ is no longer earning its keep, and is no longer known, never mind loved, this sort of thing can happen all too easily. I= t seems that the seed of demise for a pipe organ is the absence of any appreciation for the instrument, such as that I have touched on above. T= his is not because the people that sell them are mean, or have an anti-organ agenda, but rather that the love for, and the connection to the organ, ha= ve been lost for one reason or another. I believe the best thing we can do,= as organ people, is to serve as the best ambassadors for the pipe organ as w= e can. If we can share our diverse knowledge, appreciation, talent, and enthusiasm for these great instruments, then maybe we can save a few orga= ns. I encourage any organ fan to use their gifts to bring more people to mee= t and love the organ. Does this mean a life sentence of free hand-outs?=20 Certainly not. An organ must have support from its owners to live; it mu= st play and play often, it must have an organist, and an audience. Otherwis= e, the organ is nothing more than on life support, languishing alone, yieldi= ng no value to the owner, nor satisfaction to the ones who give freely of themselves. Nevertheless, the new love must be sparked, and the potentia= l appreciation inspired, and nurtured.=0D =0D Best,=0D =0D Nate
(back) Subject: Re: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:23:25 EDT   While this situation is a shame, keep in mind that many a pipe organ = has been destroyed, heaped at the curb, or carted to a landfill because of an organist, not because of a Session, a Board, or a Vestry. Hundreds of average pipe organs that were perfectly adequate for = fifty, seventy, or a hundred years have been sent to their deaths by = organ-players who convinced the instruments' owners to replace the pipe organs with large electronics or completely new real organs. I have heard church music employees rant and rave about what they = deserve and require, how they cannot negotiate a simple Mass or liturgy without = the now-standard 128 levels of memory (how much music DO they have in their repertoire?), couplers from everywhere to everywhere at every pitch = (required for WHAT music?), five pairs of "celestes" (absolutely essential to the = Lutheran worship service), or four 32' stops. They profoundly resent the injustice = of not having a choice of eight different fanfare trumpets stored in a computer. Most organ music was written for organs of two or three manuals that controlled thirty to fifty ranks of pipes. Most of the concert literature = was written for no combination action, or with a rudimentary one at best. Most = of the music we know and love was written for organs that bore no 32' stops. Yet = the abhorrent insult of being denied such things when we require them... Oddly, when a pipe organ is junked because it is allegedly inadequate = to serve the needs of such a brilliant and accomplished musician, nobody = seems to ask why such a skilled and scient artist cannot make a small instrument = "jump through hoops," as the greats of the past did. Many organs ARE rebuilt and enlarged from time to time. Evolved instruments are a tradition, and one might argue that they are a natural = outgrowth of the evolution of musical culture. Yet the ones we most revere are just = that: they are evolved, retaining and respecting the best of what was there, and =   building upon that foundation. Another facet of the successfully evolved organ is that size is not = the objective -- quality is. Whenever I have seen an organ aggrandized to = excess, quality almost always suffers. Such organs simply grow, they do not = DEVELOP. More often than not, it is the organist who hires the hobbyist to refurbish a pipe organ "on the cheap," with disastrous results. The church = has placed their trust in the presumed professional judgement of their organist. Ignorant groups of people frequently make mistakes based upon the = advice of those who claim to be experts, basing their decisions on the trust they =   place in the professed expertise of those whose guidance they seek.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..  
(back) Subject: RE: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 15:58:18 +1300     Forgive me for repeating this - it needs to be read again and again. Ross   > I have heard church music employees rant and rave about what they deserve and require, how they cannot negotiate a simple Mass or liturgy without = the now-standard 128 levels of memory (how much music DO they have in their repertoire?), couplers from everywhere to everywhere at every pitch (required for WHAT music?), five pairs of "celestes" (absolutely essential to the = Lutheran   worship service), or four 32' stops. They profoundly resent the injustice = of not having a choice of eight different fanfare trumpets stored in a computer. Most organ music was written for organs of two or three manuals that controlled thirty to fifty ranks of pipes. Most of the concert literature was written for no combination action, or with a rudimentary one at best. Most of the music we know and love was written for organs that bore no 32' stops. Yet the abhorrent insult of being denied such things when we require them... Oddly, when a pipe organ is junked because it is allegedly inadequate = to   serve the needs of such a brilliant and accomplished musician, nobody = seems to ask why such a skilled and scient artist cannot make a small instrument "jump through hoops," as the greats of the past did. Many organs ARE rebuilt and enlarged from time to time. Evolved instruments are a tradition, and one might argue that they are a natural outgrowth of the evolution of musical culture. Yet the ones we most revere are just = that:   they are evolved, retaining and respecting the best of what was there, and =   building upon that foundation. Another facet of the successfully evolved organ is that size is not = the objective -- quality is. Whenever I have seen an organ aggrandized to excess, quality almost always suffers. Such organs simply grow, they do not = DEVELOP. More often than not, it is the organist who hires the hobbyist to refurbish a pipe organ "on the cheap," with disastrous results. The church has placed their trust in the presumed professional judgement of their organist. Ignorant groups of people frequently make mistakes based upon the = advice   of those who claim to be experts, basing their decisions on the trust they =   place in the professed expertise of those whose guidance they seek.   Sebastian M. Gluck      
(back) Subject: RE: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 15:58:22 +1300     Forgive me for repeating this - it needs to be read again and again. Ross   > I have heard church music employees rant and rave about what they deserve and require, how they cannot negotiate a simple Mass or liturgy without = the now-standard 128 levels of memory (how much music DO they have in their repertoire?), couplers from everywhere to everywhere at every pitch (required for WHAT music?), five pairs of "celestes" (absolutely essential to the = Lutheran   worship service), or four 32' stops. They profoundly resent the injustice = of not having a choice of eight different fanfare trumpets stored in a computer. Most organ music was written for organs of two or three manuals that controlled thirty to fifty ranks of pipes. Most of the concert literature was written for no combination action, or with a rudimentary one at best. Most of the music we know and love was written for organs that bore no 32' stops. Yet the abhorrent insult of being denied such things when we require them... Oddly, when a pipe organ is junked because it is allegedly inadequate = to   serve the needs of such a brilliant and accomplished musician, nobody = seems to ask why such a skilled and scient artist cannot make a small instrument "jump through hoops," as the greats of the past did. Many organs ARE rebuilt and enlarged from time to time. Evolved instruments are a tradition, and one might argue that they are a natural outgrowth of the evolution of musical culture. Yet the ones we most revere are just = that:   they are evolved, retaining and respecting the best of what was there, and =   building upon that foundation. Another facet of the successfully evolved organ is that size is not = the objective -- quality is. Whenever I have seen an organ aggrandized to excess, quality almost always suffers. Such organs simply grow, they do not = DEVELOP. More often than not, it is the organist who hires the hobbyist to refurbish a pipe organ "on the cheap," with disastrous results. The church has placed their trust in the presumed professional judgement of their organist. Ignorant groups of people frequently make mistakes based upon the = advice   of those who claim to be experts, basing their decisions on the trust they =   place in the professed expertise of those whose guidance they seek.   Sebastian M. Gluck      
(back) Subject: RE: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 15:58:22 +1300     Forgive me for repeating this - it needs to be read again and again. Ross   > I have heard church music employees rant and rave about what they deserve and require, how they cannot negotiate a simple Mass or liturgy without = the now-standard 128 levels of memory (how much music DO they have in their repertoire?), couplers from everywhere to everywhere at every pitch (required for WHAT music?), five pairs of "celestes" (absolutely essential to the = Lutheran   worship service), or four 32' stops. They profoundly resent the injustice = of not having a choice of eight different fanfare trumpets stored in a computer. Most organ music was written for organs of two or three manuals that controlled thirty to fifty ranks of pipes. Most of the concert literature was written for no combination action, or with a rudimentary one at best. Most of the music we know and love was written for organs that bore no 32' stops. Yet the abhorrent insult of being denied such things when we require them... Oddly, when a pipe organ is junked because it is allegedly inadequate = to   serve the needs of such a brilliant and accomplished musician, nobody = seems to ask why such a skilled and scient artist cannot make a small instrument "jump through hoops," as the greats of the past did. Many organs ARE rebuilt and enlarged from time to time. Evolved instruments are a tradition, and one might argue that they are a natural outgrowth of the evolution of musical culture. Yet the ones we most revere are just = that:   they are evolved, retaining and respecting the best of what was there, and =   building upon that foundation. Another facet of the successfully evolved organ is that size is not = the objective -- quality is. Whenever I have seen an organ aggrandized to excess, quality almost always suffers. Such organs simply grow, they do not = DEVELOP. More often than not, it is the organist who hires the hobbyist to refurbish a pipe organ "on the cheap," with disastrous results. The church has placed their trust in the presumed professional judgement of their organist. Ignorant groups of people frequently make mistakes based upon the = advice   of those who claim to be experts, basing their decisions on the trust they =   place in the professed expertise of those whose guidance they seek.   Sebastian M. Gluck      
(back) Subject: Re: The Ebay Organ, and the future or pipe organ culture From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:14:30 -0400   And to think I thought that the current United States Election was off-topic here....   > Ignorant groups of people frequently make mistakes based upon the = advice >of those who claim to be experts, basing their decisions on the trust = they >place in the professed expertise of those whose guidance they seek. > >Sebastian M. Gluck > > > > Stupid people make mistakes because they act on guidance they have sought? Stupid people would be better off not seeking guidance? Stupid people should be banned? Experts should not be self-professed? Experts should be ordained by other experts? Which came first, the expert or the egg?   Give us a break!   Although, I am definitely in favor of professional examination and = certification of pipe organ repair persons, as they require in Germany. = Too many stupid people in churches get screwed by pipe organ = technicians...and just as many as smart people in churches get screwed by = pipe organ technicians.   Every town of any size has at least one butcher of pipes...and when he = dies or leaves for greener pastures, there's another one waiting to take = his place.     -- noel jones, aago noeljones@frogmusic.com ----------------------------------- 1 877 249-5251 Athens, TN USA   www.frogmusic.com Rodgers Organ Users Group Frog Music Press - Organ and MIDI Music FMP Organ Music Search Service Rodgers Organ Design & Voicing Services