PipeChat Digest #4858 - Saturday, October 30, 2004
 
Small Organs...without shades.
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Noel Jones, stop lying and manipulating
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Noel Jones, stop lying and manipulating
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
...and the other half of this week's mp3
  by "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net>
Re: Noel Jones, stop lying and manipulating II
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
RE: Small Organs...without shades.
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Small Organs...without shades.
  by "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
RE: Small Organs...without shades.
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
positive things in Chicago!
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Small Organs...without shades.
  by "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: Small Organs...without shades.
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
what's wrong with no shades? nothing at all ...
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: what's wrong with no shades? nothing at all ...
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Small Organs...without shades.
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
Re: Small Organs...without shades.
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
 

(back) Subject: Small Organs...without shades. From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:21:51 -0400   In a major city about 14 years ago, a small chapel organ in a large Methodist church was redone by a small local builder who was very proud of the fact that this new chapel organ was built without shades.   As in most large churches, the chapel serves most often for small funerals and weddings....   A former dean of the AGO turned to me and said. "How can you play a funeral on an organ wthout shades?"   Why, oh why, does this strange aberration in design popup every so often?   That organ has been re-renovated..and now has shades.   -- noel jones, aago noeljones@frogmusic.com ----------------------------------- 1 877 249-5251 Athens, TN USA   www.frogmusic.com Rodgers Organ Users Group Frog Music Press - Organ and MIDI Music FMP Organ Music Search Service Rodgers Organ Design & Voicing Services      
(back) Subject: Noel Jones, stop lying and manipulating From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:47:18 EDT   I never said "stupid." I said "ignorant." There is a difference in meaning as well as in connotation. I never said "stupid people should be banned." Those are your fabrications.   Your constant attacks against me, both public and private, make an ass of = you and waste our time. I am no danger to your Rodgers sales and commissions. How dare you put words in my mouth. It's disgusting, and must stop. Just grow up.   If you have something to say that is not infantile, please do so in = coherent English sentences, and make some kind of contribution to this forum. But = do not "sit in wait" just to attack me due of some freakish and unstable = grudge of yours.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City   ..  
(back) Subject: Re: Noel Jones, stop lying and manipulating From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:13:36 -0400       TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   >please do so in coherent >English sentences >   >But do not "sit in wait" just to attack me due of some freakish and = unstable grudge of >yours. > > > That's my point exactly. We'd like some coherent sentences.   If the administrator would prefer I not post, I will retire quietly, otherwise I will continue to eschew obfuscation, especially when performed in a public forum for reasons, unknown, that may be, pray tell, freakish and unstable, of a grudge-like nature whether with or without bearing, not that bears are not liked.   -- noel jones, aago noeljones@frogmusic.com ----------------------------------- 1 877 249-5251 Athens, TN USA   www.frogmusic.com Rodgers Organ Users Group Frog Music Press - Organ and MIDI Music FMP Organ Music Search Service Rodgers Organ Design & Voicing Services      
(back) Subject: ...and the other half of this week's mp3 From: "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:30:19 -0700   Earlier in the week I posted Richard White's Prelude in F minor:   http://www.blackiris.com/orwig/white/White_Fmfantasy.mp3   Now I'm done with the companion Fantasy-Fugue and Chorale:   http://www.evensongmusic.net/White_Fmfugetest.mp3   Do enjoy,   Jonathan  
(back) Subject: Re: Noel Jones, stop lying and manipulating II From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:30:28 -0400   Seriously now, your attacks on organists, pipe organ builders, vestry, church music employees ranting and raving, the death of pipe organs...and I haven't even gotten to your thoughts on non-pipe organs...these attacks clutter this list.   Pipe Organs were once alive, when they were trees. They were killed as trees to become pipe organs. They are not resurrected as pipe organs and so for that reason they cannot die again. Pipe organs are rarely baptized today, as the church does not either consider them living things.   While i have never privately attacked you, I admit that I have chortled at the occasional private message I have received from others who tire of your antics. Any private attacks made against you in my name are fabricated and should be dealt with severely. As should be obvious by now there is nothing I would say about you privately that I would not post to this list.   However, I did say something about you in a private post recently and I bare my soul now and share it with the world. I am not sure who I emailed this to, but I said, "You know, the funny thing about this is that if we went to NYC and met Sebastian we'd probably really like him." If the receiver of that message is on this list and would like to verify this, please feel free.   The world is not full of people who are doing everything they can to get rid of the pipe organ, replace it with karaoke machines, and so on. Instead there are a lot of people who love the instrument. No one is on this list who does not love the pipe organ. So what you are doing is preaching to the choir.   TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   >I never said "stupid." >I said "ignorant." >There is a difference in meaning as well as in connotation. >I never said "stupid people should be banned." >Those are your fabrications. > >Your constant attacks against me, both public and private, make an ass of = you >and waste our time. >I am no danger to your Rodgers sales and commissions. >How dare you put words in my mouth. >It's disgusting, and must stop. >Just grow up. > >If you have something to say that is not infantile, please do so in = coherent >English sentences, and make some kind of contribution to this forum. But = do >not "sit in wait" just to attack me due of some freakish and unstable = grudge of >yours. > >Sebastian M. Gluck >New York City > >. > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > > >   -- noel jones, aago noeljones@frogmusic.com ----------------------------------- 1 877 249-5251 Athens, TN USA   www.frogmusic.com Rodgers Organ Users Group Frog Music Press - Organ and MIDI Music FMP Organ Music Search Service Rodgers Organ Design & Voicing Services      
(back) Subject: RE: Small Organs...without shades. From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:27:55 +1300   >A former dean of the AGO turned to me and said. "How can you play a funeral on an organ wthout shades?" Why, oh why, does this strange aberration in design popup every so often? That organ has been re-renovated..and now has shades.   Forgive my ignorance, but I fail, utterly, to see the connection between a swell box and a funeral. Any organist worth 2c can decide to play music appropriate to the organ in front of him/her. There is much fine music = that is very appropriate for funerals: simple slow-moving chorale preludes from the Baroque period, or pieces by Frescobaldi, or Titelouze or the later French classics, or slow movements from old English voluntaries. I never tire of playing these on tiny instruments and have often played them, with good comments from the involved families afterwards, when playing a rotten "2m spinet" electronic farce with pedals - you know the thing - two short keyboards that don't relate.   It sounds as if the instrument you mention has been shoved around twice. = Get rid of the Swell box and leave it alone. If it has an 8ft Stopped Flute or an 8ft Dulciana, either of those is perfectly adequate for the music mentioned above, and there are crates of it. And either of those stops can cope exceedingly well with slow music played softly.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs...without shades. From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:23:19 -0500   What's wrong with an organ without shades?   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net    
(back) Subject: RE: Small Organs...without shades. From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:37:40 +1300     >What's wrong with an organ without shades?   Absolutely nothing at all. When Director of Music of a large = Anglo-Catholic parish in NZ more than 30 years ago, where there was a good choir and a 3m organ of about 27 stops, I never once used Swell box or Choir box = shutters. Swell shutters are not necessary in even complex Anglican liturgical situations. A musician will always tailor the music to the resources. Some organists may not do so.   Ross    
(back) Subject: positive things in Chicago! From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 01:38:26 EDT   Dear Pipechatters, The list has been laden with so much darkness lately. Cheer up! = Several new organs have gone in churches in the Chicago area-and a few more are on = the way. About a month ago Douglas Cleveland dedicated a new Pasi at St. = Paul and the Redeemer, Hyde Park. On Wednesday night, Kenilworth Union Church = had their new Dobson tracker dedicated by Andrew Reid. Tonight, David = Schrader performed a recital at the Music Institute, Evanston-1914 EM Skinner-the = oldest playable one in IL. Next Sunday, Schrader will dedicate a new Bigelow tracker at the Lutheran Theological Seminary, Hyde Park. The = installtion of Fisk Op 123 is taking place at St. Chrysostom's Episcopal Church, Chicago-it = will be dedicated by Daniel Roth in Feb '05. It is a good size 2 manual and pedal-there is a 16' montre on the great, and a 16' bombarde in the = swell--can't wait to hear it! Good stuff happening in this neck of the woods. Peace, gfc         Gregory Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net  
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs...without shades. From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:47:18 -0500   I remember a something Barone said on Pipedreams many years ago....."One pipe out in the open is worth two in a box." (Or something like that) = Think of all the music that is untouched in the era without shades (gasp) I = think many organists like the shades because they can play and hopefully cover = up there mistakes with the shutters closed. I know many old wanna be = organists in my home town that try to pull that off.   My little thoughts at 1 in the morning   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs...without shades. From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 01:57:13 EDT     In a message dated 10/30/04 12:47:48 AM, montre1978@yahoo.com writes:     > I remember a something Barone said on Pipedreams many years ago....."One > pipe out in the open is worth two in a box." (Or something like that)=A0 T= hink > of all the music that is untouched in the era without shades (gasp)=A0 I t= hink > many organists like the shades because they can play and hopefully cover u= p > there mistakes with the shutters closed.=A0 I know many old wanna be organ= ists > in my home town that try to pull that off. >=20 > My little thoughts at 1 in the morning >=20 > Scott Montgomery > 619 W Church St. > Champaign, IL 61820 >=20   Doug Cleveland used to refer to that as "meandering on the celestes." =20 hehehe gfc       Gregory Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net  
(back) Subject: what's wrong with no shades? nothing at all ... From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:18:53 -0700   We have a FABULOUS 3m Fritts-Richards here in San Diego in All Souls' Episcopal Church out on Point Loma ... Schnitger-inspired, but not a slavish historical copy ... flat pedal-board, modified tuning (I forget which one, but I didn't have ANY trouble playing Dupre on it), mechanical key and stop action, no combination action.   The local chapter of the AGO won't touch it with a ten-foot pole, and it's probably the best organ in the county.   Reasons: no swell box, flat pedal-board, no chimes (!).   The Brustwerk 8' Oak Gedeckt + tremulant with the doors closed can manage "In The Garden" just FINE, thankyewverymuch (chuckle); although *I* would have enclosed the Oberwerk, since it's an Anglican church with an Anglican choral service (the manuals are Hauptwerk, Oberwerk, and Brustwerk), the O/C seems to do just fine without it. He occasionally uses registrants, but the stop-knobs are close to the keyboards and the stop-action is light, so it's REALLY not a problem to hand-register, particularly with three manuals at one's disposal.   The VOICING is out-of-this-world SUPERB; the Pedal 16' Prestant (the only 16' flue in the Pedal) fits under ANYTHING. Even though it's a germanic organ, one can do French terrace dynamics on it quite handily.   Swell-boxes came late in the history of organ-building; balanced, centered swell shoes came even later, as witnessed by the recent discussion of expression shoes on Cavaille-Coll organs.   Especially where funds and/or space is limited, a swell box takes up a fair amount of both.   And, as has been pointed out again and again, the literature for which some organists pine for 128 levels of memory, 4-5 manuals, multiple enclosed divisions, and multiple 32' stops was in fact written for medium-sized organs of 30-50 stops.   I don't know offhand how many St. Sulpice or Notre Dame or some of the English cathedrals seat, but the St. Sulpice organ at 102 stops is among the largest; Notre Dame in its original form was smaller; St. Clotilde was CONSIDERABLY smaller, but from all reports, in its original state the sound was MAGICAL; virtually every cathedral organ in the British Isles except Liverpool is small by American standards as well; few have a second enclosed division. Virtually ALL those churches are larger than the largest US mega-church, albeit with MUCH better ACOUSTICS.   Franck had foot-ventils for the reeds and foot levers for the couplers and tremulant; English cathedral organs OCCASIONALLY had mechanical "machine-stops" (similar to 19th century American organs with fixed P, MF, F foot-levers) until the advent of pneumatic action ... many of THOSE organs STILL only have a handful of divisional pistons, and NO general pistons.   Yet somehow the organists of earlier generations managed to play the literature and accompany the choral service in a manner so skilled that it is seldom heard today.   They didn't need all that; WHY DO WE?   A number of years ago, I took the funeral Mass of a family friend on a large four-manual pipe organ that had just received a new console with all the latest gadgets. The incumbent was proudly explaining its intricacies, and asked me how many memories I'd need.   I pressed Swell 1 on whatever memory was up; it brought on the celestes; I pressed Swell 8; it brought on Full Swell to Reeds; I turned to him and said, "none; that's all I need." I then proceeded to pull all the 8' stops, couple all the manuals together, and play the service, changing manuals and hand-registering as needed.   I think he was quite offended (chuckle).   With the advent of solid-state, gadgets ARE cheap; I don't trust solid-state any further than I can THROW it.   I am reminded of a local organ by a very famous builder whose entire stop, combination, and key-action had to be replaced when it was water-damaged, on account of the solid-state gear being a one-off custom-built affair, for which there were NO replacement parts.   TRS-80 computers are less than 30 years old; anybody tried to get parts for them recently?   THAT'S what I'M afraid of.   Simple, sturdy mechanical-action organs (with or without swell boxes) with a minimum of gadgets are almost infinitely renewable; one honest builder on these lists pointed out that builders should be upfront with churches about the necessity of replacing or overhauling electrical gear of ALL kinds on the average of every 30-50 years, depending on climate, humidity, and use of the organ.   *I* can fix a broken tracker or a disintegrated leather nut; I CANNOT fix a computer (grin).   Cheers,   Bud              
(back) Subject: Re: what's wrong with no shades? nothing at all ... From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 02:44:12 EDT     In a message dated 10/30/04 1:14:56 AM, quilisma@cox.net writes:     > imple, sturdy mechanical-action organs (with or without swell boxes) > with a minimum of gadgets are almost infinitely renewable; one honest > builder on these lists pointed out that builders should be upfront with > churches about the necessity of replacing or overhauling electrical gear > of ALL kinds on the average of every 30-50 years, depending on climate, > humidity, and use of the organ. > > *I* can fix a broken tracker or a disintegrated leather nut; I CANNOT > fix a computer (grin). >   YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES! and one more- YES gfc       Gregory Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net  
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs...without shades. From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:45:21 -0700 (PDT)   Greetings!   Unfortunately the little one-manual organ at my own home church does not have shades... and I wish it had shades... If *I* had been consulted as to my opinion before it was built, I would have left out the Trompette 8' (which like the Festival Trumpet at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine) is too overpowering, and which is not a rank that helps the congregation sing better) and had a set of shades instead...   Au contraire, this summer I subbed on an organ at a church... I left the Swell Organ shades completely open during the whole service... Why? well I must confess one reason is that as my right foot was not in good condition, I could not open and close the expression pedal that readily... Fortunately when it was necessary to play on the Swell alone I usually used two beatifully voiced stops at my disposal (Salicional 8', actually a wonderful Salicional 8' Diapason that I could have played on forever without tiring, and the Voix Celeste 8' together with the Salicional 8')...   So in summary, yes, I would surely rather have shades at hand in case I need to use them to gradually reduce or increase the volume of the combination (s) I use... but when necessary I can get along without them...   Best wishes to all,     Morton Belcher fellow list member...             __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs...without shades. From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 02:09:25 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)   -------Original Message------- In a message dated 10/30/04 12:47:48 AM, montre1978@yahoo.com writes: I remember a something Barone said on Pipedreams many years ago....."One pipe out in the open is worth two in a box." (Or something like that) I think that quote goes back to E. Power Biggs when the Flentrop in the (then) Bush-Reisinger Museum was first installed! My little thoughts at 1 in the morning Time to go to BED! Hopefully, the storms have now passed (in more ways = than one!). . . Richard Schneider