PipeChat Digest #4861 - Sunday, October 31, 2004
 
Re: Small Organs...without shades.
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: Terror Targets Organ
  by "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: Terror Targets Organ - a Moller
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
Re: Terror Targets Organ
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
Re: Terror Targets Organ
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
Minor Builders?
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
Re: Terror Targets Organ
  by "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
Re: Small Organs...without shades.
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here...
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Re: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here...
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here...
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Terror Targets Organ
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here...
  by "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com>
USAF Mollers
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: ...the future or pipe organ (and all Western) culture
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here...
  by "bnorth" <bnorth@intergate.ca>
Re: USAF Mollers
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs...without shades. From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 04:22:06 -0600   Organs without ranks enclosed behind shades an aberration in design??? = No, not really Noel.   I'm privileged to preside over a 1974 31 rank tracker which doesn't have a =   single enclosed pipe. Nor does it have combination pistons, a swell shoe, = a crescendo shoe, MIDI, or multiple levels of solid state memory. Alas, all =   there is for the poor organist are 2 keyboards, a pedal board, draw knobs, =   bench, and divisional couplers operated by mechanical hook down pedals. = Yet this instrument is capable of playing nearly all of the "concert" literature, hymns and liturgical music, accompaniment of the choir, = leading congregational singing. Just about anything required of it. It is used = for all sorts of services .... weddings, funerals, baptisms, and the like. It =   is used often for recitals and community concerts.   The success of any organ is dependant upon the skill of the builder, its voicing, the acoustic environment, and the skill and musicianship of the organist. Not on whether it has all of the latest electronic "bells and whistles", registrational aides out the whaazoo, and rank upon rank = enclosed behind shades.   I know it's an old fashioned concept these days, but remember when an organist was expected to know how to register and organ by hand? It's amazing what can be accomplished musically by drawing and retiring those pesky draw knobs that control all of those artfully voiced ranks of pipes. =   To say that an organ is poorly designed because it lacks a Swell Box is = just plain silly. Mind you, there are venues where such aides are desirable. = I think Monty Bennett addresses the rationale for this very well. That = being said, his situation certainly is not the "norm" for most organists.   Respectfully,   Tim   ----- Original Message ----- From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:21 PM Subject: Small Organs...without shades.     > In a major city about 14 years ago, a small chapel organ in a large > Methodist church was redone by a small local builder who was very proud = of > the fact that this new chapel organ was built without shades. > > As in most large churches, the chapel serves most often for small = funerals > and weddings.... > > A former dean of the AGO turned to me and said. "How can you play a > funeral on an organ wthout shades?" > > Why, oh why, does this strange aberration in design popup every so = often? > > That organ has been re-renovated..and now has shades. > > -- > noel jones, aago > noeljones@frogmusic.com > ----------------------------------- > 1 877 249-5251 > Athens, TN USA > > www.frogmusic.com > Rodgers Organ Users Group > Frog Music Press - Organ and MIDI Music > FMP Organ Music Search Service > Rodgers Organ Design & Voicing Services > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 05:54:07 -0600   Either Moller or A. Skinner.   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ - a Moller From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:01:28 EST   In a message dated 10/30/2004 10:40:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, pipechat@pipechat.org writes: Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: "Matthew N. Chegezy" <mcheg101@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:29:41 -0400   It's a Moller...big loss!   M On Oct 30, 2004, at 11:15 PM, David Evangelides wrote:   > On tonight's local news: Bomb threat at the Air Force Academy in > Colorado Springs, supposedly placed 'under the organ' in one of the > chapels. > > What next! No respect for a house of worship nor the instruments of > praise. > > Fortunately, after evacuating the premesis, nothing was found. > > > David E > > David Evangelides > Fulfillment Manager > International Bible Society > 719-867-2729 > (Sent by wireless T-Mobile Sidekick)  
(back) Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:07:31 EST   So what? The Air Force security police probably only looked under the = console to find this "bonb?" And we KNOW that the console IS the entire organ, right? I believe Allen Organ still manufactures Moller consoles.   Stan Krider   In a message dated 10/30/2004 10:40:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, mcheg101@comcast.net responds: Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: "Matthew N. Chegezy" <mcheg101@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:29:41 -0400   It's a Moller...big loss!   M Responding to post written by David Evangelides :   > On tonight's local news: Bomb threat at the Air Force Academy in > Colorado Springs, supposedly placed 'under the organ' in one of the > chapels. > > What next! No respect for a house of worship nor the instruments of > praise. > > Fortunately, after evacuating the premesis, nothing was found. > > > David E > > David Evangelides > Fulfillment Manager > International Bible Society > 719-867-2729 > (Sent by wireless T-Mobile Sidekick)  
(back) Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:12:33 EST   Around our shop we've toyed with the idea of sending one of our employees = to the air port with a shipment of 16' offset Diapasons with the bottom four = tied to the top of his van.   We decided against it because we didn't want to sacrifice any good = Diapason ranks.   Stan Krider   In a message dated 10/31/2004 5:01:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, ndenton@cogeco.ca writes:   Somebody probably saw the Trumpets and a English Horn and thought   "OMG! Rocket Propelled Grenades OH MY!"  
(back) Subject: Minor Builders? From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:28:11 EST   Is this Lima Chuech Organ company the same as the Lima Pipe Organ Company = in Lima, OH, owned by the Holycross Brothers? Stan Krider   In a message dated 10/31/2004 5:01:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, = kzrev@rr1.net writes:   Personally, I think the lesser quality builders of the 19th--and even = early 20th century--are seldom remembered precisely because they WEREN'T memorable, and their organs are mostly discarded by now. I played a very non-memorable ca. 1915 organ by the Lima Church Organ company that was probably an asset to the dump.  
(back) Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:52:23 -0000   Once-upon-a-time, (I trust you're sitting comfortably ? then I'll begin) = I played the wedding ceremony of two eminent (London) Barristers, who = brought their entire firms with them (and you should have seen the = wedding presents ... whew ... when the Inns of Court want to show-off, = they really know how to do it).   This involved having no fewer than seven High Court Judges in = attendance, each be-wigged and en-robed, and with their own Court Usher, = and their own Police (armed) bodyguard.=20 Each needed to process, independently, with pomp and ceremony befitting = his/her status and seniority, shadowed up a side-aisle by their 'Police = presence'.   Please bear in mind that the church was close to an Inner-city = Birmingham Irish community, and we has just had the Birmingham 'Pub = Bombings' * ... 2 IRA devices which had killed and maimed many locals.=20   Terrorism ....... what's new ?   Anyway, part of the procedure for making the church 'safe' (and the = rough places plain) was a thorough investigation of the console and the = twin organ lofts by Police 'sniffer' dogs trained to discover = explosives.=20 And there was an Officer stationed next to the console - who declined to = be my 'turner-over' !   Harry Grove [a.k.a. an ever-vigilant musicman]     -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------   * Bombings by the Provisional IRA in Birmingham, England on November 21, = 1974 which killed 21 people. The devices were placed in two central = Birmingham pubs: the Mulberry Bush, at the foot of the Rotunda, and the = Tavern in the Town, a basement pub on New Street.=20   At 8:14pm a man with an Irish accent telephoned a Birmingham newspaper = and said that there was a bomb in the 17 story Rotunda office block = housing the Mulberry Bush pub. At 20:25 that bomb exploded and at 20:27 = another in the Tavern in the Town pub exploded. A third device, outside = of a bank on Hagley Road, failed to detonate. The attacks collectively = were the most injurious terrorist blasts in mainland Britain; 21 people = were killed (ten at the Mulberry Bush and eleven at the Tavern in the = Town) and 182 people were injured.=20   The Provisional IRA denied being responsible for the attacks two days = after them but subsequent statements by its members confirmed the = connection   From: Wuxuzusu@aol.com=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------   To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ=20     So what? The Air Force security police probably only looked under the = console to find this "bonb?" And we KNOW that the console IS the entire = organ, right?
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs...without shades. From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:02:10 -0500   Point well taken, but I don't think this is quite what he meant. It seems =   he was just saying that a case for an organ is important accoustically. = I'm not sure I agree with this... I've heard some aweful, screaming organs in nice, hard cases. I've heard warm caseless organs. It has more to do = with accoustics and voicing. All of the builders he mentioned (sorry, I've forgotten who you are, or perhaps I have the wrong person completely... someone said this) who built caseless organs (I think he said the elder Holtkamp and Schlicker) also were known for screechy voicing. Its all = about the scaling and voicing folks! And the accoustics of course.   You could make a similar argument about chamber-tombs. During the neo- baroque era, it was thought that chambers were bad... muddied things = beyond recognition. Now we are seeing more organs in chambers again, but this thinking still exists. The more observant, however, will notice that the organs we know of that are buried in chambers and sound all muddy also had =   muddy voicing. Put better scaling and voicing in the same chambers, and voila! Musical results. Again, its all about the scaling and voicing.   Don't forget that a lot of organs that have a case, do not necessarily = have the case working for them. Estey comes immediately to mind. Most Estey's = I know have cases that only come up as high as the chests... everything = above that is just metal dummy pipes. So it might as well be caseless. Estey's =   have been accused of a lot of things, but never their shrill, screaming upperwork! I can think of a lot of nice, old trackers with similar cases. = They look pretty but accoustically are not doing much for the organ... and =   yet they sound ok anyway.   I'm not saying that chambers or cases do not affect things at all, only arguing against the idea that a certain layout is necessary for musical results.   Andy   On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 04:22:06 -0600, Octaaf wrote > Organs without ranks enclosed behind shades an aberration in > design??? No, not really Noel. > > I'm privileged to preside over a 1974 31 rank tracker which doesn't > have a single enclosed pipe. Nor does it have combination pistons, > a swell shoe, a crescendo shoe, MIDI, or multiple levels of solid > state memory. Alas, all there is for the poor organist are 2 > keyboards, a pedal board, draw knobs, bench, and divisional couplers > operated by mechanical hook down pedals. Yet this instrument is > capable of playing nearly all of the "concert" literature, hymns and > liturgical music, accompaniment of the choir, leading congregational > singing. Just about anything required of it. It is used for all > sorts of services .... weddings, funerals, baptisms, and the like. > It is used often for recitals and community concerts. > > The success of any organ is dependant upon the skill of the builder, > its voicing, the acoustic environment, and the skill and > musicianship of the organist. Not on whether it has all of the > latest electronic "bells and whistles", registrational aides out the > whaazoo, and rank upon rank enclosed behind shades. > > I know it's an old fashioned concept these days, but remember when > an organist was expected to know how to register and organ by hand? > It's amazing what can be accomplished musically by drawing and > retiring those pesky draw knobs that control all of those artfully > voiced ranks of pipes. To say that an organ is poorly designed > because it lacks a Swell Box is just plain silly. Mind you, there > are venues where such aides are desirable. I think Monty Bennett > addresses the rationale for this very well. That being said, his > situation certainly is not the "norm" for most organists. > > Respectfully, > > Tim     A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com  
(back) Subject: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here... From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:46:13 -0700   Okay, so we're always hearing [from some quarters] about how a pipe organ is ALWAYS superior to ANY electronic ....... then we have all these recent postings about all these INFERIOR pipe organs from "forgettable" builders (including M. P. M=F6ller) "littering" the country.   Does that mean that even the vilest, crummiest, nastiest-sounding pipe organ is STILL superior to a good pipeless instrument, or are some folks 'talking out of both sides of their mouth' ?!   ~ C   P.S. The main organ in the Air Force Academy Chapel in Colorado Springs IS a M=F6ller, cir. 1970 (give or take a couple of years either way - I do have a brochure on it but it's filed far, far away), built to the design and specification of Walter Holtkamp. I don't recall all the particulars but it seems that Holtcamp had originally gotten the contract then could not deliver in time so it was passed over to M=F6ller. Something along that line.      
(back) Subject: Re: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here... From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:29:10 +0800   I don't know whether they are speaking out of both sides of their mouths=20 Charlie, but they certainly have closed minds. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:46 PM Subject: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here...     > Okay, so we're always hearing [from some quarters] about how a pipe organ= =20 > is ALWAYS superior to ANY electronic ....... then we have all these recen= t=20 > postings about all these INFERIOR pipe organs from "forgettable" builders= =20 > (including M. P. M=F6ller) "littering" the country. > > Does that mean that even the vilest, crummiest, nastiest-sounding pipe=20 > organ is STILL superior to a good pipeless instrument, or are some folks= =20 > 'talking out of both sides of their mouth' ?! > > ~=20   >  
(back) Subject: Re: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here... From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:36:53 -0500   No need to be puzzled Charlie. Just quit comparing apples to oranges for =   the sole purpose of inflaming the meaningless debate. Shame on you. Vile =   pipe organs are inferior only to glorious pipe organs. Pipe organs are=20 not superior or inferior to electronic instruments, just different, way=20 different in fact.   I'm a mastertech journeyman auto technician. You are a talented and=20 versatile musician of many years experience. Who is more superior? Such=20 comparison makes as much sense as comparing any pipe organ to any=20 electronic.   Mike   Charlie Lester wrote:   > Okay, so we're always hearing [from some quarters] about how a pipe=20 > organ is ALWAYS superior to ANY electronic ....... then we have all=20 > these recent postings about all these INFERIOR pipe organs from=20 > "forgettable" builders (including M. P. M=F6ller) "littering" the count= ry. > > Does that mean that even the vilest, crummiest, nastiest-sounding pipe =   > organ is STILL superior to a good pipeless instrument, or are some=20 > folks 'talking out of both sides of their mouth' ?! > > ~ > C > > P.S. The main organ in the Air Force Academy Chapel in Colorado=20 > Springs IS a M=F6ller, cir. 1970 (give or take a couple of years either= =20 > way - I do have a brochure on it but it's filed far, far away), built=20 > to the design and specification of Walter Holtkamp. I don't recall all =   > the particulars but it seems that Holtcamp had originally gotten the=20 > contract then could not deliver in time so it was passed over to=20 > M=F6ller. Something along that line. > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:01:08 -0600   Greetings Scott,   The USAF Academy Cadet Chapel has 2 organs designed by Holtkamp, and built =   by MP Moller. The Protestant Chapel organ is a big beast of 4 manuals, 83 =   ranks, 67 stops. The Catholic Chapel organ is much smaller ... 3 manuals, =   36 ranks, 29 stops. I don't recall an organ being present in the Jewish Chapel, but I could very well be mistaken. Both are fine instruments installed in an awesome acoustic, and they are very well maintained. I = know that many believe that Moller built inferior organs, but IMHO neither of these organs are among them. They are both very musical instruments! Another Moller that I found to be a decent organ and enjoyable to play is = in the main Chapel at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, TX. It's 3 manuals, 45 ranks, 39 stops. The Recruit Chapel had a nasty 2 manual = Allen analog job... Another decent Moller is at St. Philomene RC in Sacramento (III/35), with an unenclosed Positiv.   Cheers,   Tim Grenz   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 5:54 AM Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ     > Either Moller or A. Skinner. > > Scott Montgomery > 619 W Church St. > Champaign, IL 61820 > 217.390.0158 > www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net      
(back) Subject: Re: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here... From: "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 08:23:36 -0800   > P.S. The main organ in the Air Force Academy Chapel in Colorado Springs I= S=20 > a M=F6ller, cir. 1970 (give or take a couple of years either way - I do h= ave=20 > a brochure on it but it's filed far, far away), built to the design and= =20 > specification of Walter Holtkamp. I don't recall all the particulars but= =20 > it seems that Holtcamp had originally gotten the contract then could not= =20 > deliver in time so it was passed over to M=F6ller. Something along that= =20 > line.   I think it's even weirder than that. If I'm remembering right, Air Force=20 procurement rules prohibited the consultant/designer (Holtkamp) from=20 providing the materiel itself (as the AF probably thought of it), so the=20 organ had to be contracted out to someone else (M=F6ller). Another quirk,= =20 again if I'm remembering right, is that when the M=F6ller was used for=20 recording purposes (e.g., a Wilson Audio record by James Welch), AF=20 regulations did not allow the organ to be identified because of some truly= =20 inane prohibition against commercial exploitation of AF property.   But all of that insanity is small change compared to what we're up against= =20 now....   MAF   ag  
(back) Subject: USAF Mollers From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:08:55 EST   All of the Armed Forces Academy chapels (West Point, Annapolis, = Colorado Springs) granted contracts to Moller. One of Moller's final instruments was a very small organ, of about = twelve ranks, for the chapel at Camp David. The Moller organ in the Chapel of the Skies was, in fact, of = Holtkamp's design.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..    
(back) Subject: Re: ...the future or pipe organ (and all Western) culture From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:42:37 -0600   At 10:56 PM 10/30/2004, you wrote: >Sadly the choices for too many churches are a Rodgers custom four manual >trillium -OR- a $150 Casio keyboard with the auto-chord features. (c'mon, =   >there's a "Church Organ" in the General MIDI spec   There is just no cure for folks with a TIN EAR. Fortunately there are = still folks out there that appreciate the REAL THING,   jch      
(back) Subject: Re: Hmmmmm..... I am puzzled here... From: "bnorth" <bnorth@intergate.ca> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:05:54 -0800   FINALLY, someone has come up with the ultimate reply to the age old arguement between wind blown pipes and electronically generated pipe = sounds. The list owners should frame this and repeat it every week, so that we = never have to hear this topic again. Mike, you may be a journeyman auto tech, = but you have a PhD in english to come up with this great reply. Thank you.   Mike wrote:   "No need to be puzzled Charlie. Just quit comparing apples to oranges for the sole purpose of inflaming the meaningless debate. Shame on you. Vile pipe organs are inferior only to glorious pipe organs. Pipe organs are not superior or inferior to electronic instruments, just different, way different in fact.   I'm a mastertech journeyman auto technician. You are a talented and versatile musician of many years experience. Who is more superior? Such comparison makes as much sense as comparing any pipe organ to any electronic."   Mike      
(back) Subject: Re: USAF Mollers From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:32:17 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 11:08 AM Subject: USAF Mollers     > All of the Armed Forces Academy chapels (West Point, Annapolis, Colorado > Springs) granted contracts to Moller. > One of Moller's final instruments was a very small organ, of about twelve > ranks, for the chapel at Camp David. > The Moller organ in the Chapel of the Skies was, in fact, of Holtkamp's > design. > > Sebastian M. Gluck > New York City > http://www.glucknewyork.com/   While it may be true that many Mollers are not particularly inspiring, the instrument in the Chapel of the Skies is a particularly fine one. When a firm built 13,000 organs (or however many it was that Moller built) a few = of them at least had to turn out all right, simply by the laws of chance. = This one also had the advantage of being designed (including the scaling) by Holtkamp. The architectural design of the chapel and organ is = breathtaking. There are a few photographs on the internet, see for example, http://www.adventurist.net/trips/colorado_09-2001/afa_otc/photos/pipe-organ= .jpg There are not many pipe organs are advertised as tourist attractions like this one, so we should make the most of it!   John Speller