PipeChat Digest #4865 - Sunday, October 31, 2004 Re: it finally happened... by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Music today by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Re: Music today by "Scott Montgomery" <email@example.com> Re: horses and buggies by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> What I Played Today by <SWF12262@aol.com> Confused by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re: Second to none? by <Joshwwhite@aol.com> a serious discussion by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: horses and buggies by "bobelms" <email@example.com> Re: Confused by "Robert Lind" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Second to none? by "Cole" <email@example.com> Re: a serious discussion by <Joshwwhite@aol.com> Re: Terror Targets Organ by <Voicer40@aol.com> Re: Terror Targets Organ by <Voicer40@aol.com> "Buddites" by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: horses and buggies by "Robert Lind" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: it finally happened... From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:51:25 -0500 On 10/31/04 8:16 PM, "Robert Lind" <email@example.com> wrote: > I don't know what you're driving at, Alan. A fact of life in many churche= s > today is that people will applaud anthems and postludes. A few months ago= a > Pastor in my church began the welcome with "I wanted to applaud at the en= d of > the prelude, and I think we all did. Let's do it now." >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 Good for him (though I MIGHT have saved it until later)! (We don=B9t = have > =B3the welcome.=B2 It says that on the sign out front.) >=20 > Oh, I don=B9t think I was driving at anything in particular, Robert. It wa= s > just a pleasant josh. Nothing serious. Though our congregation is quite > multi-ethnic-everything, our Old German =B3reserve=B2 is still fairly much in > place. But (though we wouldn=B9t THINK of applauding an anthem) we DO appl= aud a > postlude fairly often (twice a month?=8Bthough it=B9s only a dozen or so > =B3groupies=B2 that hang in for it). And our pastor OFTEN invites us to expr= ess > our appreciation to our music folks, and we DO, with gusto. >=20 > I=B9d say I=B9m =B3cool=B2 on applause. But when it happens, I join in, big time= , and > gladly. I think it would lose something, though, if it became =B3routine=B2 = or > =B3expected.=B2 Much more fun when it=B9s utterly UNexpected and spontaneous. > (Which, here, happens quite a lot!) >=20 > I don=B9t think our organist EVER has to even SUSPECT that he=B9s =B3bored ever= yone > silly and had better shelve that one.=B2 Hey, some Postludes are just > postludes. No? =20 >=20 > OK? >=20 > Alan > =20 >=20
(back) Subject: Re: Music today From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:57:11 EST United Methodist Church of Red Bank, NJ II/40+ Hradetsky Tracker October 31, 2004 10:30 service: Prelude: Toccata and Fugue in D-minor, J. S. Bach. Introit: "Open Our Eyes", B. Cull. Hymns: "A Mighty Fortress". "Be Thou My Vision" (Slane). "Be Still My Soul" (Finlandia). Choral Worship: "Cantique de Jean Racine", Faure. Piano Offertory: "Hyfrydol", arr. N. Brown. Postlude: Improvisation (when it started I didnt' know where I was headed, = but it ended up being built on the final phrase of Ein Feste Burg). I DID want to suggest Halloween, so that is why I played the Bach. Not to = mention that our organ renders Bach so successfully. Neil Brown
(back) Subject: Re: Music today From: "Scott Montgomery" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:05:39 -0600 Prelude and Fugue in e minor (Cathedral as it's called)- JS Bach Opening- Sing Praise to God Who Reigns Above Offertory- Lord of all Nations, Grant me Grace Communion- Second Movement from a minor concerto- Vavaldi/Bach, and = choir sang Salva Regina (Mary Month) Closing- The Church's One Foundation Postlude- Toccata- Boellmann And they sang there heart out at every mass, and I believe we are in the = 21st century! Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net
(back) Subject: Re: horses and buggies From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:06:55 -0500 On 10/31/04 8:52 PM, "Robert Lind" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > I wish all you Buddites continued happiness with your constricted instrum= ents > and repertoire. I want to gag every time we have these overlong rehashes = of > this stuff more often than PBS has fund drives. Go off to the little bro= wn > church in the wildwood and/or vale and bore everyone silly who may be wit= hin > earshot. Some of us live in the 21st century and are aware of what our > parishioners hear on the radio, TV, CDs, you name it. They won't sit stil= l for > what they consider to be boring music and a limited tonal palette. Yearn = all > you want for a kinder, gentler, simpler life and monochromaticism and > one-dimensionality. Most American churchgoers don't want it and neither d= o I. Aha! I think I figured it out. There are TWO "Robert Lind"s. Both in Illinois? One Lutheran, one ??Episcopal? Oy. Let's start this conversation all over again. First: My best to EACH of you. You sure don't SOUND like the same person (nor should you; you're NOT=8Bif my theory is correct). (But let me clear my head a bit before I proceed. Ma=F1ana?) Hasta luego. Alan
(back) Subject: What I Played Today From: <SWF12262@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:18:42 EST St. Lambert RC, Skokie, IL Prelude: Vater unser in Himmelreich (JS Bach) Processional: Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (Grosser Gott) Offertory: Bless the Lord, O My Soul (Mikhail Ippolitoff-Ivanoff) [Choir Mass] Bunessan ("After the Last Verse," by Malcolm Archer, plus some improvisation) [the other 3 Masses] Communion: Christ Be Beside Me (Bunessan) Communion Anthem: Seek Ye the Lord (JV Roberts -- Children's Choir on = solo) Recessional: Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones (Lasst uns Erfreuen) Postlude: Toccata in D Minor (JS Bach) On another subject, isn't it a part of our calling to make the best of = any instrument we have the opportunity to play? Having all the latest registrational luxuries can make life a bit easier, but we should always = keep our hand registration abilities sharply honed. I play a 17 rank instrument, = which, until a few months ago, was controlled by an aging 2 manual console with = six increasingly unreliable general pistons. Ready ability with hand = registration was a must! That console has been replaced by a 3 manual with 10 pistons = in each division, 10 generals, and 99 levels of memory. It also has draw = knobs instead of tilting tablets. I still register many things by hand, but it = sure is nice to have all the bells and whistles! Such registrational aids = make imaginative registration easier to accomplish, but it can be done by hand = given a thorough knowledge of the instrument and adequate planning and = practice. I believe it is a good and healthy thing that the organ world in 2004 can = boast of a wide range of instruments, from true antiques to new = instruments built on historic models to EP behemoths! I would suggest that we enjoy = the diversity! Steve Folkers
(back) Subject: Confused From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:32:24 -0500 I'm VERY confused. Are cch.com and core.com the same Robert Lind? They don't SOUND the same! Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Second to none? From: <Joshwwhite@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:19:56 EST 2nd Baptist in Houston, is far bigger than 1st Baptist Houston. And has = a bigger organ also! Josh In a message dated 10/31/2004 4:24:34 PM Central Standard Time, Wuxuzusu@aol.com writes: In a message dated 10/31/2004 4:42:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter Rodwell writes: Why are there so many churches in the US called the "First <something>"? First Baptist, First Methodist, etc. Does "first" mean the first to be built in that location? Or first in some sort of ranking that somehow implies "better"? And why are there apparently no "Second <whatever>" churches? At least I can't remember ever receiving details of an organ in a chuch so named. Does this mean that, once there is a First Church in a place, the next one to be built has to be called something else so that its parishioners don't feel inferior, as they presumably would were it called "Second..."? (Now I know this is just asking for dozens of replies saying, "But I'm the organist at the Second Church of the Wrath of the Lord in Graveyard, Arizona..." to which my reply is, "Good - now send me the specs of the organ".) Just wondering... Peter.
(back) Subject: a serious discussion From: "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:36:01 -0800 Putting aside Mr. Lind's usual scintillating and illuminating comments, what we're overlooking here is that we're discussing several discrete instruments: 1. The tracker-mechanical action pipe organ as built in various countries from approximately 1600-1900, and again from approximately 1950 to the present 1a. Barker lever (patented 1839) and tubular pneumatic action pipe organs (from the 1860s), most with slider chests 2. The electro-pneumatic / electro-mechanical action pipe organ as built from the late 19th century to the present 3. Various analog and digital electronic substitutes 4. Combinations of (2) and (3) Until Guilmant's Maitres d'Orgue series and Mendelssohn's re-discovery of Bach, there wasn't a great deal of concern about the organs being able to play music of other eras and other countries; and even Guilmant was quite happy to register Titelouze for the "modern" French organ. Bach assumed his rightful place following the publication of the Gesellschaft; beyond that, for the most part, French organists played contemporary French music; German organists played contemporary German music; English organists played contemporary English music. Only the Americans, who variously travelled to France, Germany, and Italy to study, brought home the music of their teachers and included it in their recital programs. Did this give birth to the notion of the "all-purpose" American Classic organ? Perhaps. The FACT of the matter is that NO organ can play EVERYTHING *equally* = well. The amount of LITERATURE composed SPECIFICALLY for the electro-pneumatic or electro-mechanical action pipe organ is negligible, if weighed against everything that preceded it ( from Attaignant up to Vierne, and even early Messiaen). Aside from a few commissioned works, I can't think of ANYTHING that has been composed SPECIFICALLY for electronic substitutes. I hasten to add that I do not include Hammonds in that ... they are ... what? ... electro-mechanical synthesizers? ... and DO have a LARGE body of literature which can ONLY be played on a Hammond, specifically a B-3 with a Leslie speaker. And Hammond PURISTS ... gospel, jazz, rock artists ... are having NONE of digital knock-offs (chuckle). It was amusing at the trade shows to listen to the Hammond people demonstrate how they'd digitally reproduced the characteristic "key-pop" of a B-3 .... shades of early electronic attempts to reproduce "chiff" (grin). So ... unless one is associated with an academic situation like Oberlin or Michigan or Duke, where it's possible to have organs from different periods, what does one do? My particular subjective preference is for a French organ with an English accent (or vice versa, depending on the mixture composition and reed voicing called for by the particular building), and, yes, I would have the kind of Swell described by Schweitzer. I haven't played one of the new Fisks with optional pneumatic assists for the couplers, or the Mander rebuild of the massive 4m tubular pneumatic instrument in Eton College; I imagine that some kind of assistance for the couplers WOULD be desirable in a 3m romantic church organ, providing it didn't interfere with the touch sensitivity of the tracker action to the manuals. It's too bad that American builders didn't pursue tubular pneumatic action to the high degree of perfection to which it was brought in England. As built in the UK, it's fast, quiet, and durable. That might be a good compromise for larger instruments. Certainly there's no reason to build small to medium-sized 2m organs as anything but straight trackers, IF the builder knows how to build a light, responsive action. Again, THAT'S not rocket science ... K & Gs and Brombaughs (and many others) have the touch of a good harpsichord; K & Gs have the characteristic "pluck" as well. MANY of the judgments I read on these lists are made after playing 19th century organs that have been abandoned, abused, or neglected for most of their existence. Organs DO have to be tuned OCCASIONALLY; actions DO have to be regulated ONCE in awhile; trackers and nuts DO break/decay after a hundred years or so. But there aren't MANY electro-action pipe organs that could be left sitting in an abandoned, unheated church for ten years or more and still be operable to the point of being able to play a final farewell recital, as we did before we moved the K & G in Cincinnati. Concerning multiple organists and multiple memories: as I recall, there were six other organists on staff at St. Mary's, Lorain, OH ... I had the Sunday High Mass, and the noon Organ Mass; the six had the rest, and the daily Masses. The '20s Wicks had MAYBE 3 pistons for each division, and 3 "collective masters" (NOT generals) that fired Sw 1, Gt 1, and Ped 1 simultaneously. The Lutheran liturgy of Bach's day, the RC liturgy of Mozart's day, and the Anglican liturgy of Oldroyd's day (to take absolutely THE most complex of anglo-catholic liturgies) were ALL *much* more complex and contained MUCH more music than their contemporary counterparts ... Oldroyd MIGHT have had a few pneumatic divisional pistons; the rest had NOTHING. They managed. They were musicians. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: horses and buggies From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:36:14 +0800 Yes Robert Lind we are quite aware of what our Parishioners hear on the radio and we are equally aware that they don't want most of that junk in church. Our commercial stations are dishing out continuous ear-thumping rubbish mostly written by the performers themselves, some words so foul = that we hope our kids are not listening. One point in favour is that the worst = of the performers have such bad diction you have no idea what they are = singing anyway. You want that in church? I don't. BTW I play in five different churches in my city from time to time, in two = regularly. They get real organ music and tell me afterwards how much they enjoy it.I don't think it would be much different in your country. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Lind" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: horses and buggies >I wish all you Buddites continued happiness with your constricted > instruments and repertoire. I want to gag every time we have these > overlong > rehashes of this stuff more often than PBS has fund drives. Go off to = the > little brown church in the wildwood and/or vale and bore everyone silly > who > may be within earshot. Some of us live in the 21st century and are aware = > of > what our parishioners hear on the radio, TV, CDs, you name it. They = won't > sit still for what they consider to be boring music and a limited tonal > palette. Yearn all you want for a kinder, gentler, simpler life and > monochromaticism and one-dimensionality. Most American churchgoers don't > want it and neither do I. > > Robert Lind >
(back) Subject: Re: Confused From: "Robert Lind" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:36:22 -0600 Dear Alan, I've been at the core.com address since late July 2003. The two main denominations in which I've served have been Episcopal and Lutheran = (ELCA). Be thou not confused. People change jobs and e-mail addresses quite frequently these days, though I've been at my church for almost 17 years now. Occasionally I get so tired of the usual suspects reiterating and regurgitating and commenting on every possible subject that comes down the pike (you'd hope there'd be SOMETHING that they're not self-appointed authorities on and might not have to comment on, but NO) that I let off a little steam. All in good fun, don't you know. We don't all think the same way, and that's for sure. I have wanted color, pistons, swell shades, and other goodies since I began organ study at the age of 14. Sure, we've all marveled at and drooled over a wonderfully voiced rank of pipes and = thought out loud that we could play on such a rank and nothing else for the rest = of our lives. Then the next day dawns, and for many of us a sense of balance and reality returns to our musical lives. Anyway, sorry for the confusion. You are free to wander about the list without further concern. Bob Lind ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Freed <email@example.com> To: PipeChat <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:32 PM Subject: Confused > I'm VERY confused. > > Are cch.com and core.com the same Robert Lind? > > They don't SOUND the same! > > Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Second to none? From: "Cole" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:46:49 -0500 Peter et al., In the case of the Lutheran parishes in Springfield, Ohio the list goes = on. First in the city in 1841 came The First English Lutheran Church. The pastor, Ezra Keller, in 1845 established Wittenberg College (now University) in the basement of First Lutheran. The parish grew and grew = and had need for more room for Sunday Schools. Thus, Second Lutheran was born. = More growth and Third Lutheran and Fourth Lutheran and finally Fifth Lutheran came into being. Not until the 1960s did anyone care to do anything about the banal names. At that time, Second decided to rename their parish after one of their stained glass windows and from that time onward it was Good Shepherd Lutheran. Soon after Third Lutheran and my = home parish, Auburn Lutheran (named after the avenue of the same name), decided = that they could make a better go of it by merging. That parish is affectionately named No Hope Low Lutheran Church (actually, just Hope Lutheran--they may not have style, but they DO have a pipe organ!). Two down and three to go. In the last ten years, the renamed Second (Good Shepherd) and Fourth decided to combine. Everyone went to Fourth and renamed the combined Second and Fourth to the newer Second Lutheran name--Good Shepherd. Just to let everyone know, Fourth, now the new Good Shepherd, also has a Good Shepherd stained glass window. We are down to First and Fifth and they both look like they are in for the = long haul. As for organs, First has a first-rate Holtkamp. The former Fourth has a Schantz in the ceiling. The former Third (Hope) has a = salvaged instrument from parts by Bunn=3DMinnick. And Fifth has a Lima Bean (no, = I'm joking again--it's Lima Organ Co.) with aluminum chests, no less! The only = instrument I've not played is the one at Fifth. Interestingly, First Lutheran was NOT the first Lutheran parish in Clark County (in which Springfield is the county seat). The first Lutheran = church in the county was First Lutheran Church in Donnelsville, a speed trap on what is called "The National Road", US Route 40, upon which Ezra Keller traveled from Hagerstown, MD to Springfield, Ohio to be the pastor of the second Lutheran church in Clark County, First Lutheran Church, where he founded Wittenberg, appropriately named after the university town in which = Martin Luther posted this day (October 31--Eve of All Saints' Day) in 1517 = his famous ninety-five theses. If anyone finds an error here, please excuse me or, at least, grant me an indulgence. I'm now one of the foggy Episcopalians. Ross Coulson "Cole" Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio, USA Peter wrote: >Why are there so many churches in the US called the >"First <something>"? First Baptist, First Methodist, >etc. Does "first" mean the first to be built in that >location? Or first in some sort of ranking that somehow >implies "better"? > >And why are there apparently no "Second <whatever>" >churches?
(back) Subject: Re: a serious discussion From: <Joshwwhite@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:47:16 EST This is a strange question, but is a B-3 tonally different from a B-2, = C-3 or an Rt-3, or any other tonewheel Hammonds of that period? Excluding of = course, the addition of percussions, key clicks, vibrato and the other variables.... Josh In a message dated 10/31/2004 10:32:03 PM Central Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: I hasten to add that I do not include Hammonds in that ... they are ... what? ... electro-mechanical synthesizers? ... and DO have a LARGE body of literature which can ONLY be played on a Hammond, specifically a B-3 with a Leslie speaker. And Hammond PURISTS ... gospel, jazz, rock artists ... are having NONE of digital knock-offs (chuckle). It was amusing at the trade shows to listen to the Hammond people demonstrate how they'd digitally reproduced the characteristic "key-pop" of a B-3 .... shades of early electronic attempts to reproduce "chiff" (grin).
(back) Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: <Voicer40@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:48:09 EST When I played the Protstant Chapel organ about twenty years ago, it had = three manuals. Did they get a new console? The console looked like a Holtkamp console except for the toe pistons and swell pedals. Those were = definitely Moller. It sure didn't sound like a Moller. Moller didn't build inferior organs. Their chests and consoles were very substantially built. Many non-Moller organs have Moller consoles and = chests. Tonally, they were very cautious to do anything drastic. They only did = new things when they absoluteluy had to. I have re-voiced and tonally = finished some and they have turned out extremely well with a distinct Boston accent. Moller had a reed voicer named Adolph Zadjic (sp?) who voiced some of the most beautiful reeds I have ever heard. The talent was there - but = musical knowledge and taste was not. Another name not to be forgotten was Richard = Whitehead in the 1940s. If he had lived longer, he probably would have = acieved enough of a reputation to get out from under the management's thumb, and Moller would have really produced some fine musical instruments. D. Keith Morgan
(back) Subject: Re: Terror Targets Organ From: <Voicer40@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 00:01:08 EST Sorry - I just made a mistake. The man I mentioned was Richard Whitelegg = - not Richard Whitehead. D. Keith Morgan
(back) Subject: "Buddites" From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:05:02 -0600 I don't know, Robert. I think most American church goers would be = thrilled with a small, but excellent, pipe organ well played by a musician. I've been a pastor for over 25 years, and while people think things like the Yamaha Clavinova are cute gadgets, they really don't have the capabilities for accompanying music like a good organ! Yes, we'll never solve the argument, but, like Bud, I can't see throwing = out an instrument that has served well for 50, 75, or more years without a = VERY compelling reason. At worst, one could "mothball" the instrument and = stick the Clavinova and drums and guitars out there for the fad of the day. And I'm all for using culturally relevant music in worship--but this "toss it out" mentality seems to apply only to organs. Any other musical instrument that is intrinsically valued is kept--or a home found where it will be cherished and used. Just my two cents. Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines
(back) Subject: Re: horses and buggies From: "Robert Lind" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:06:03 -0600 No, of course I don't play or want junk in my church. It's remarkable how = we can twist things that people write. I play very good literature all the = time and learn and play more literature than perhaps anyone I know. I'm just tired of people who play boring, uninteresting organ music, recycle the = same 50 or so pieces they ever learned, and play this stuff on instruments with limited resources as if this were the cat's meow. I wish that they might really find what's out there, expand their horizons, and realize how best = to make this music come alive on the King of Instruments instead of on a tinker toy. I played a tinker toy (put together by Holtkamp) for close to = 5 years at one point and, sure, I can marvel at what one can do under the circumstances, but I thanked God for opportunities to practice and recitalize elsewhere. I did my time and know full well that I want variety to bring a full perspective of fine music to the church and recital hall = and thereby to keep people interested in the organ and to make new converts. Robert Lind ----- Original Message ----- From: bobelms <email@example.com> To: PipeChat <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 10:36 PM Subject: Re: horses and buggies > Yes Robert Lind we are quite aware of what our Parishioners hear on the > radio and we are equally aware that they don't want most of that junk in > church. Our commercial stations are dishing out continuous ear-thumping > rubbish mostly written by the performers themselves, some words so foul that > we hope our kids are not listening. One point in favour is that the = worst of > the performers have such bad diction you have no idea what they are singing > anyway. You want that in church? I don't. > BTW I play in five different churches in my city from time to time, in = two > regularly. They get real organ music and tell me afterwards how much = they > enjoy it.I don't think it would be much different in your country. > Bob Elms.