PipeChat Digest #4745 - Tuesday, September 7, 2004
 
RE: Organ Mishaps
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
Re: Louis Vierne Recordings
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Punctuation
  by "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk>
An apology
  by "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: the death of grammar
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
RE: Electronic Instrument Question
  by "Mr. R.E. Malone" <remalone@btinternet.com>
singing
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
singing and food
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Concert Announcement
  by "Benjamin A Kolodziej" <bkolodzi@smu.edu>
Re: the death of grammar
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
to mark the passing of Donald James Leslie
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
Organs and Organists Online Update
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
RE: Room dimensions
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: singing and food
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Pet Peeves--now really off topic!
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
[Fwd: Printed Music from Italy]
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Deth of gramer & fonicks
  by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Organ Mishaps From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:46:34 -0400   I know the purpose of your post was not a cry for help but... could you describe the manufacturer of the organ and the type of action it has? For instance is it EP with ventil stop action or EP with pitman stop action etc,. Maybe we can help. I service organs and if I have a problematic = organ with troubles I cannot resolve I get opinions from my peers in the same field. Sounds like you're having pneumatic trouble involving contracting wood and perhaps failed gaskets if the trouble is predictable according to seasonal changes. But I (we) need more details.   Maybe we could make a game of it. Get as many opinions as possible and see which one solves the trouble.   What d'ya say?   AjMead -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Joshwwhite@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 4:20 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Organ Mishaps     About a year ago a similar occurrence happened to me. I was just about to start playing for communion, when I turned a page in the hymnal = and the entire hymnal fell off the music rack. It proceeded to smash down the entire row of great stop tabs and bounce off the great keyboard, and land = on the pedalboard. I had already selected great to pedal, so it caused two loud outbursts from the organ. I think people were more appreciative that it woke them up, than mad that it disturbed them during communion-as one person said I should do that more often! Also, about once a year about this time, the organ starts = developing cyphers. These cyphers effect all the ranks on the great chest. It is funny because it seems these cyphers will hold over for exactly the amount of time you hold the note. One particularly bad year, there were 5-6 cyphers (all fall into the key of F major of course) and every hymn was affected by several notes holding over for several seconds at the end of = the hymn. Every time it would happen people would look up at me as if I were forgetting to let some notes off. Finally one sunday, before the choral call to prayer, the pastor told the congregation that the organist, in = fact, knew exactly when to let off of the notes, but that the organ, unfortunately, did not. I was appreciative of him doing that! The only note cyphering so far this year E17, so it hasnt caused many problems. We will have to wait for the fall tuning to get it fixed. Josh White               In a message dated 9/6/2004 10:02:47 AM Central Standard Time, ymcmlx@gmail.com writes: One thing that I've found is that dropping a hymnal on the pedalboard of a pipe organ or a digital instrument with the 16' pedal reed drawn creates the same stunned silence from the preacher and the Congregation. (Not that I'll admit to ever having done that myself. No, not me. [Yeah, right.])   James    
(back) Subject: Re: Louis Vierne Recordings From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:54:07 -0400   David Scribner mentioned that the EMI 5 CD boxed set of French Organs and Organists of the 20th Century (1900 - 1950) are available in Canada.   I bought my set from L'Atelier Grigorian, 70 Yorkville Avenue, Toronto, Ontario. 'phone 416 922 6477.   I have no connection with this store other than being a satisfied = customer.   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Punctuation From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 15:51:33 +0200   A funny exercise recently posted on a pipe organ list ;-) Can you do it?   Jarle   Andy Lawrence wrote: > Punctuate this: > > Alice while Matthew had had had had had had had had had had had a better =   > impression on the teacher. > > Andy (saw this in a a grammar book in grade school once) > > > > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service > PO Box 111 > Burlington, VT 05402 > (802)578-3936 > Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >  
(back) Subject: An apology From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 15:55:30 +0200   List,   My apologies for sending out a message not meant for PipeChat.   - Jarle  
(back) Subject: Re: the death of grammar From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 11:12:28 -0500   My grandmother was a Sacred Harp singer - and she used to say they would "peel the bark off the trees".   Yes - absolutely everyone sings absolute every note full volume chest voice. It is an incredible sound. And they can do it ALL day (with a break for lunch) without tiring. They still sing that way, but it is a generational thing. They grow up singing with their families, and I guess if you sing that way all your life, your cords are used to it. We took a church group to a singing a couple of years ago, and even with trying not to sing that way, you find yourself gradually drawn into that full voice, chesty singing, and by lunch, we were all hoarse.   Margo   Liquescent wrote:   > To keep it on the topic of music, at least, if not organs, the style of > singing one still hears at Sacred Harp "All-Day Singings With Dinner On > The Grounds" is probably very close to 16th century performance practice =   > ... no vibrato, and VERY nasal (grin). Some of those back-country altos, =   > in particular, could etch glass at fifty paces (chuckle). > > Cheers, > > Bud >     -- Dr. Margo Dillard Organist, FUMC, Lewisville, TX Musical Feast Choral Society Dillard Piano & Organ Studio    
(back) Subject: RE: Electronic Instrument Question From: "Mr. R.E. Malone" <remalone@btinternet.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:43:43 +0100       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of F. Richard Burt Sent: 07 September 2004 03:28 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Electronic Instrument Question   Hello all, Further to the points being raised about how sounds of pipes are = reproduced, How do we reproduce sounds from large open pipes? The sounds from these pipes are a combination of mouth and top with a nominal separation up to = 32 feet.   Regards to all.   Richard UK.    
(back) Subject: singing From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:50:13 -0700       Margo Dillard wrote:   > My grandmother was a Sacred Harp singer - and she used to say they would =   > "peel the bark off the trees". > > Yes - absolutely everyone sings absolute every note full volume chest > voice. It is an incredible sound. And they can do it ALL day (with a > break for lunch) without tiring. They still sing that way, but it is a > generational thing. They grow up singing with their families, and I > guess if you sing that way all your life, your cords are used to it. We =   > took a church group to a singing a couple of years ago, and even with > trying not to sing that way, you find yourself gradually drawn into that =   > full voice, chesty singing, and by lunch, we were all hoarse. > > Margo >   Rather like the choir at the Russian cathedral on Geary Blvd. in San Francisco ... I was there for Great Vespers of the Dormition a number of years ago, and they sang (mostly forte and above) for the better part of three hours without stopping.   When the mosaics at the Serbian church here in San Diego were completed (after 18 years), we went to the dedication. The bishop was about five feet tall and at least 80 years old ... he chanted in a HUGE, window-rattling basso profundo from 10 a.m. till 1 p.m. ... at that point, they started the Divine Liturgy ... my legs were giving out from standing, so we decided to go to brunch ... he was showing NO signs of faltering (chuckle).   When we dedicated St. Matthew's, it took four hours (two on Saturday and two on Sunday ... no WAY were we doing it in one day) ... my poor choir was COMATOSE after THAT (chuckle) ... they were so excited, they nearly wore themselves out on the opening "Ecce sacerdos magnus" for the bishop (grin).   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: singing and food From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:55:45 -0700       Margo Dillard wrote:   > My grandmother was a Sacred Harp singer - and she used to say they would =   > "peel the bark off the trees". > > Yes - absolutely everyone sings absolute every note full volume chest > voice. It is an incredible sound. And they can do it ALL day (with a > break for lunch) without tiring.   YUMMMMMMMMMMM! Beaten biscuits and skillet corn-bread and southern fried chicken and guava preserves and peach cobbler and home-made pickles and = ...   I remember the FOOD as much as the SINGING (chuckle).   I still have my mother's Women's Society of Christian Service cook-book from Mulberry Methodist Church ... but nobody but a Southerner could cook from it ... "a pinch of this, a dab of that, a handful of this, cook until it smells done" (grin).   Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Concert Announcement From: "Benjamin A Kolodziej" <bkolodzi@smu.edu> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:13:56 -0500   For those in the Dallas area, I would like to invite you to an organ = concert I am performing this coming Sunday, 12 September at 3pm at First Presbyterian Church, 1500 Jupiter Rd in Plano, TX as part of their concert series.   An all-French program of Dubois, Boellmann, Franck, Marchand and Durufle will feature the beautiful 1985 Casavant of II/30 (with a = partially-enclosed GO.)   Sincerely, Benjamin Kolodziej    
(back) Subject: Re: the death of grammar From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:31:36 -0500   Actually still more idiom than not. If we wish to be proper, we should say we go to pipe organ concerts often, or to many pipe organ concerts.   I never really noticed how many idioms are in normal speech until I had piano students who were not U.S. English speakers. When I use idiomatic expressions, they get a totally confused expression. Then I realize that I have just said something that, by actual definition, makes no sense at all.   I just don't understand why people can't understand us in Texas when we are just telling them "how the cow ate the cabbage." ;-)   Margo   Mickey Sadler wrote: > The one that bothers me the most is "alot" and sometimes "allot" for "a =   > lot". It's seen in a lot (allot, alot) of e-mail messages. > > "I go to pipe organ concerts alot."????? "I go to pipe organ concerts a > lot." > > Mickey > ---- > Mickey E. Sadler > Dublin, Ohio >    
(back) Subject: to mark the passing of Donald James Leslie From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:26:50 -0500   Dear Pipechatters,   As electric/electronic organs and theatre organs are both well within the topical guidelines of this List, I'm sure that others here will also be interested in the following sad news of the passing of Donald Leslie, a true pioneer of the electronic organ industry. Below is a link to his obituary. (ignore the popups, scroll down the list in the box at the top = of the page to get to his name, and click on it)   Also below, a posting written by former Pipechat member Bob Scarborough, which appeared originally on Eorg-L. Bob adds much topical insight beyond =   what appears in the public obituary. Thank you Bob, not only for your essay, but also for allowing me to publish it again here.   It has been suggested that owners of Leslie Organ Speakers might wish to "spin 'em up" for a period of silence (or ??) in honor of the life of = their inventor, this coming Saturday during the time of Mr. Leslie's memorial service. Seems (to me) like that would be kind of a nice tribute.   Tim   http://www.legacy.com/PasadenaStarNews/LegacyHome.asp?CalendarDate=3D9/5/20= 04     -------------copied message text follows-----------------   Subject: Don Leslie passes From: "Bob Scarborough" Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:37:05 -0700   Word has come down the line that the inventor of the Doppler Effect organ speaker, Don Leslie, died quitely in his sleep Thursday night [Sept. 2nd], =   about 9:00 PM at his home in Altadena, CA with his wife, sons and daughter by his side. Leslie was 93, and had been experiencing heart problems for a = number of years, but was alert and active right up to the very end. He requested a direct cremation, so there is no wake, but there is a private memorial service for personal friends at the family home.   Leslie's tinkering with rotating speaker baffles and horns in the 1930s = led to the introduction of the first Leslie Vibratone speaker, the Model 30, = in December, 1940. After an unsuccessful bid to try to promote the Vibratone to the tone deaf and iconoclastic Laurens Hammond and his lackey engineer, John Hanert, Leslie set out on his own to create probably the most successful company in e-org history. It was in no small part due to Leslie's various models that the home e-org market blossomed into what it became, despite Hammond and Hanert's efforts to deride them. Indeed, many Hammond buyers would have to go to the retailer of other organ makes in order to obtain "Hammond Leslies," the 21- and 22-types, for their home Hammonds, as Leslie sales by franchised Hammond dealers were strictly forbidden, a policy the Hammond Company didn't officially rescind until they had started to precipitously lose market share to competitors in the 1960s. Almost all other organ manufacturers entered into joint sales and marketing deals with Leslie, and their success was obvious. The notable exception to this was Jerry Markowitz' Allen, which had devised its own rotating Gyrophonic Projectors, which Markowitz felt were more suitable = for classical and liturgical use.   Don Leslie will most probably be remembered as a so-so engineer, but an adventurous inventor and truly a shrewd businessman. The invention of the Vibratone wasn't done strictly for the garnering of huge profit, as was = the Hammond Organ, but rather, was due to Leslie's love of the theater organ. He knew that the Hammond was a tonal failure from its earliest days, and, knowing enough about Dr. Doppler's theories on frequency shift and knowing how a pipe organ's tremulant worked, devised the Vibratone on his own, markedly improving the sterile, steely Hammond tone into = something that more resembled the prototype. He continued development in the '40s, adding the horn baffles to provide a better frequency modulated tremolo, with the 31-A. Electric improvements were simple, yet effective, and his amplifiers were hardly elegant, but were durable and well designed for = what they did. Leslie sold his Electro-Music Corporation to the ever-growing CBS music conglomerate being formed by William Paley in the 1960s, which also bought Rodgers from its founders around the same time, as well as Fender and other musical instrument and high fidelity concerns.   Despite common thought to the contrary, Don Leslie never thought too much of his original Vibratone and its successors. He felt his crowning organ speaker achievement was the "Isomonic System" engineered with Dick Peterson, designer of the fabled Gulbransen Rialto K, that partially = solved the problem of single channel intermodulation distortion in electronic organs of the era. This was a "C-C#" setup, somewhat mimicking the diachromatic positioning of organ pipes on a chest, done for somewhat the same reason...to prevent adjacent notes from influencing each other. In the pipe example, sequentially placed pipes will tend to "draw" each other off tune, while in the e-org, closely spaced frequencies would cause irritating IM distortion. Leslie and Peterson's system neatly fixed the latter. Later Gulbransen/Leslie innovations included the "space generator", an early electromechanical phase shifting device.   Leslie's personal friendship with Dick Peterson also resulted in Leslie's own home organ, hardly a Hammond at all, but rather a Rodgers Trio which was gutted for the console shell and a completely custom analog organ designed and built by Peterson himself. This organ also contains three ranks of pipes, and is quite something to hear from all accounts. The = only "rotating speaker" in the whole installation is a Rotosonic derivation, used in the string channel. Leslie himself knew that the state of the art had moved far beyond twirling horns and "suger scoops", and this organ was verification of that.   Leslie will also be remembered for his support of George Wright after Wright's deal with Richard Vaughn and his HIFIRecord label expired and the Vaughn organ sold to Bill Brown of later pizza restaurant fame. Leslie bankrolled the studio organ in South Pasadena in Leslie's own building which was, at the time, the dream of any professional theater organist and contained a good many rare and excellent ranks of Wurlitzer pipework. = This organ is what is heard on Wright's Dot releases, and provided him with a "comback" vehicle which was quite successful into the late 1960s, = whereupon Wright's Dot contract expired without renewal. The organ was mostly destroyed in a notorious arson fire for which Wright has long been blamed, but never conclusively. What was odd was that the whole rank of brass saxes and other pipework simply "evaporated" in the fire, not leaving a trace of molten pipe metal anywhere to be seen. Odd, too, that ranks of VERY similar brass saxes and posthorns should appear in Wright's later "Hollywood Philharmonic" organ, on which he recorded, through use of an edit-capable multiplex system, many Banda LPs and CDs up until his own demise in the '90s. Up until the end, Leslie would never speak ill of George, although George's behavior, arguably, certainly deserved more than just some nasty talk.   Although one would of course expect that someone at 93 years of age would soon leave us, it's still sad to see that pioneer of an entire era pass away. However, he left us with his incredible legacy of the = transformation of the organ from being a piped instrument in a large building to one that could be plugged into a living room wall socket giving reasonably decent sound quality. Without Leslie's inventiveness and drive to make his Vibratone a success, it is doubtful that the Hammond would have continued its sales superiority as long as it did, and electronic competitors probably would not have been as appealing to potential buyers. All of us involved with any pipeless organs owe him much, and those who make their living at them owe him even more.   dB   ------------------end of copied message text---------------------    
(back) Subject: Organs and Organists Online Update From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:35:03 -0500   Greetings,   Performances by 19 year old Norwegian Organist and Composer Jon Kristian Fjellestad at the III/P/35 organ of Hamar Cathedral, Norway, of his "Fanfare" and "Toccata" have been added to the Organs and Organists Online "Downloads" page. Enjoy.   Tim Grenz Webmaster, Organs and Organists Online http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com      
(back) Subject: RE: Room dimensions From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:50:50 -0500   We were to the west of the storm, and got perhaps 2 inches and some wind. We had beautiful weather until Monday morning.     Glenda Sutton   gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Swedish5702@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:10 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Room dimensions     Glenda:   Did your area receive much rain from Frances? Here in North Central PA., we are to have the remains late Wednesday or Thursday morning.   I was the person who asked you about the theatre pipe organ in a local Pensacola theatre. It is a Robert Morton instrument.   When I was a Navy Journalist I was assigned to Corry Field for a summer back in 1963 and enjoyed your city very much.   Best, Craig Johnson Lock Haven, Pa.    
(back) Subject: Re: singing and food From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:38:28 -0600   Hello, PipeChatters: Margo continued the "layin' on the cravin' " long enough that I remembered a song from the 1970s: "It's the twenty-fifth annual Holly Grove all day picnic, All day singin' and dinner on the grounds * * * Dogs and kids are hootin' and a hollerin' Preacher's taken his coat off, and widder Brown, she's swattin' flies." Can't bring all the words back and it would be a major event to locate the original recording and score right now, but it was a real hoot, cause, you can bet the Lord is there. That song ranked way up high with the Salvation Army songs about sin and salvation. Gotta run, F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Re: Pet Peeves--now really off topic! From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:43:54 EDT   I've been out of town for a few days, so now I've come home to a flood of =   emails, as well as the remnant of Hurricane Frances (now called Tropical = Storm Frances) and I have to laugh at the wide range of grammatical pet peeves = that I started--ranging from umlauts in Moller to the use of adverbs and even = the differences between British and American English. It's all very = interesting reading, although there are quite a few to wade through! Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: [Fwd: Printed Music from Italy] From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:48:12 -0700   This might be of interest to some ...   Cheers,   Bud   -----------------------------------------------------------------------   Dear Sir or Madam:   Musicastampata.com is a newly established on-line printed music store, located in Rome, Italy. We would like to extend an invitation to visit us at www.musicastampata.com.   We carry one of the world=92s largest selections of sheet music, books on music, and music notation software.   We have everyday LOW PRICES and we offer WORLDWIDE FREE SHIPPING. We provide our institutional clients with generous discounts and personalized services.   Music dealers customarily charge a premium on printed music. We are proud to offer our customers lowest prices, avoiding mark-ups and passing on valuable savings. Why continue to pay 20 to 50% more for printed music? Test our service and be pleasantly surprised!   Our Customer Service Department is composed of multi-lingual music professionals. Its main objective is that of providing exceptional service while furnishing goal-oriented help. Our staff is friendly and prepared to assist clients in all aspects of the order, from editorial questions to programming suggestions.   Our Shipping Department is well equipped to handle deadlines. We offer a wide range of shipping options tailored to our customer=92s needs. We use reputable carriers who offer shipping services that are traceable and insured. We make certain that after the music leaves our warehouse it arrives safely and within the time specified.   Our IT Department developed our site to the highest standard of security by the deployment of Criptographic Certificate at 128 bit with protocol SSL (Secure Socket Layer), the same one used by the most trusted internet stores. Our confidence is further enhanced by our partnership with Banca Sella=AE, one of Italian oldest and most established banking company with a long standing tradition in the internet secure transaction market.   Our clients can browse one of the finest catalogs of printed music and place orders with us online, safely and efficiently. We are currently adding titles to our searchable database to make shopping with us comprehensive, simple and effective. To place an order with us directly or to request a price quote on any piece of music available, please contact us by phone, fax or email. We will give a guaranteed quote within 24 hours of your request.   Our phone hours are Monday through Friday, 10:00am to 1:00pm and 3:00pm to 6:00pm, local time. Our customer service representatives have extended hours to respond to all faxes and emails at the following:   Institutional Clients Hot-Line: 39.06.24416395 General Sales Dept.: 39.06.24411963 Customer Service: 39.06.24411964 Fax: 39.06.24411962 Email: custserv@musicastampata.com   We hope to hear from you soon! Best Regards,   Francesco Accolla President ----------------- Francesco Accolla President www.musicastampata.com A Division of ACCOLLA EDITORE, Sas Via del Trifoglio, 43 00172, Roma, Italy Tel: +39 06.244.11964 Fax: +39 06.244.11962 Email: faccolla@musicastampata.com Additional Email: accollaf@umich.edu Serving the Music Community Worldwide ------------------------------------- Questo documento e gli eventuali allegati sono indirizzati unicamente al destinatario, a cui la lettura e l'utilizzo delle informazioni contenute sono esclusivamente riservati. Nel caso di utilizzo non autorizzato, Accolla Editore, S.a.s., proprietaria del dominio www.musicastampata.com, potra' dar corso alle azioni piu' opportune per il risarcimento dei danni subiti anche da terzi. Nell'ipotesi che la e-mail non fosse indirizzata a Voi o il contenuto lasci intendere che possano esservi stati errori o manipolazioni nella trasmissione, vogliate cortesemente contattare il seguenti indirizzi di posta elettronica: info@musicastampata.com   This e-mail is directed uniquely to the interested party, which is the exclusive addressee of any information contained herein. For any abuse about the content of this message, Accolla Editore, S.a.s., proprietary of the domain www.musicastampata.com, will claim compensation for damages occurred to third parties as well. In case the e-mail should be addressed to other than you, or the content should reveal any transmission errors or manipulations, please contact us at the following address: info@musicastampata.com          
(back) Subject: Deth of gramer & fonicks From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:14:54 -0700   Hay gang, how's bout movin that thred too an off-topik lizt...xo