PipeChat Digest #4746 - Wednesday, September 8, 2004 Pet Peaves O'mine, pronunciations etc by "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> My trip to Trinity Church, Wall Street--x-post by <RMB10@aol.com> The Courts of Jamshyd by Stoughton by "Dave Clark" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Pet Peaves O'mine, pronunciations etc by "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Re: where does the money come from by "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Problems by "bobelms" <email@example.com> Don Leslie - personal rememberances by "Charlie Lester" <firstname.lastname@example.org> swell motors by "Gary Black" <email@example.com> pipe organ prices by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Pet Peaves O'mine, pronunciations etc From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:34:51 -0700 (PDT) First...I remember when I started my interest in organ music and building = and incorrectly pronounced Mathias Peter's last name as "Mahler" (Desiree' = laughs at self nowadays) I was 15 and did not know. A German professor at = one of my colleges said it should be pronounded "Muhller". I think I'll = just stick to good ole "molar "as we call it. NOW...a pet peave of mine among organing. Trackers are mechanical action and mechanical actions are trackers, right? = So one or the other would do, right? If im wrong, tell me. And trackers = have keydesks...unless there is a remote playing device, as in Disney = Hall, which would be a console. One thing thats often helpful for me is to know how to pronounce someones = last name correctly. There are some in our field who have tricky names, = that are visible and known, but not verbalized that much around me. Two = that come to mind quickly are Ochse and Mardirosian. From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
(back) Subject: My trip to Trinity Church, Wall Street--x-post From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:36:20 EDT This past Sunday night, I had the extreme pleasure of having several hours = so myself at the stunning new chancel console of the Marshall-Ogeltree "Epiphany" organ at Trinity, Wall Street. I had heard the CD that Doug = Marshall produced and was amazed, but to hear the organ in person simply blew my = mind! The organ has some amazing samples in it. I asked Doug Marshall how he managed to get such a wide variety of samples to work together so well = without tweaking them. As I understand it, the samples that they use are only = adjusted for balance and are not put through filters to change voicing parameters, = so the sounds are basically authentic. Any chiff is left in, any speech imperfections are left in, slight voicing differences between notes are = left "as is", because that is how the original rank is. The attack and release on = the each pipe is how the individual pipe spoke when it was sampled, so my understanding is that there has been no alteration of those = characteristics on the Trinity organ. The organ is really two complete instruments with two consoles (one in = front and one in back) each with it's own set of samples, but with the identical = specification. Either organ can be played together or separately from = either console. The ensemble is a grand sound--full and rich--the type of sound = that engulfs the listener as a pipe organ does. I played a piece and = recorded it into the sequencer so I could hear it from the nave and walk around to = listen. I was stunned at the realism. I was very impressed with the = chorus that the organ has, that there is "motion" in the sound, not the sterility = that is found in many digital organs. The most fun I had was experimenting with the "chamber sounds," the added = features that Marshall-Ogeltree Associates have included in their = technology. These features add another dimension of realism to digital organs. While = some may criticize these as "superfluous," I found them to make the organ = sound more realistic. When the organ is turned on, the sound of reservoirs = filling with air is heard. If keys are pressed without any stops being pulled, = you can hear the sound of simulated pitman action. The swell shoes actuate simulated shade noises. Even pressing the Tutti piston makes a stop = action noise. When a tremulant knob is pulled, you can hear the trem motor. All these = little nuances add a depth of realism that is lacking in "stock model" = digital organs. I have always wondered why these sounds were never included in electronic organs, since they are part of a pipe organ. Johannus has = tracker noises as part of their sound module. They are the only "stock model" = company I know who has attempted to add any pipe organ "noises" to the digital = organ. I will tell you all that these "chamber sounds," as Marshall-Ogeltree = calls them, create a sense of realism. Why take all the "living" noises out of something and make it so sterile? = I think that is part of why many electronic organs sound so fake. They are = tuned perfectly in tune and there are no extraneous noises. What pipe = organ is ever perfectly tuned and has no noises emanating from it? In short, the Epiphany organ at Trinity is a marvel of digital organ technology. Doug Marshall and David Ogeltree have created a stunning = instrument, and, as I told Doug, I think the reason that it is so sucessful and = sounds like it does is that it was designed by two organists, not engineers. Anyone = who has a chance to go hear this organ in person should do it...it's worth a trip to New York. My other stop on this trip was to go see the = installation and voicing of the new Ruffatti at Phillips Exeter Academy in New Hamshire, which promises to be a gem of an organ. The voicing is not yet finished = and I can't wait to hear the finished product! Monty Bennett Friendship Baptist Church Charlotte, NC
(back) Subject: The Courts of Jamshyd by Stoughton From: "Dave Clark" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:54:33 -0400 Does anyone know where I can buy a copy of The Courts of Jamshyd by Stoughton?
(back) Subject: Re: Pet Peaves O'mine, pronunciations etc From: "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:10:44 -0500 Yeah, those terms are generally used interchangealby. Technically, a tracker is just a piece of the mechanism that is usually employed in a mechanical action organ. So to be really proper, one would say = "mechanical action organ", or almost as proper, a "tracker action organ" (but why = don't we say a "square action organ" or a "rollerboard action organ" or a "backfall action organ"?. I suppose its true that some mechanical = action organs do not have these parts, but then there do exist organs with mechanical action that do not have trackers, either). Calling a mechanical-action organ a "tracker" is analogous to calling an automobile with a manually-shifted transmission a "stick". Perfectly acceptable; it has become the industry-accepted slang, essentially, and takes a heck of a lot less effort to say. Has someone been badgering you about calling an organ a tracker? Show = them this email. You are correct in using the term. I've heard the snootiest organ snobs use the term this way. You wouldn't use the term in a = technical report, though, and probably not in a recital program. Andy > > Trackers are mechanical action and mechanical actions are trackers, > right? So one or the other would do, right? If im wrong, tell me. > And trackers have keydesks...unless there is a remote playing device, > as in Disney Hall, which would be a console. > > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: Re: where does the money come from From: "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:30:12 -0500 Point taken, but I don't think we're talking about $50,000 versus a million. Perhaps 25,000 versus 150,000, maybe. I know a church that recently bought a $25,000 Allen. Remember... no casework, fake wood in = the console, including fake veneer, the cheapest of plastic keys (including = part of the keystick being plastic), and non-moving stop tabs. If one built a pipe organ as cheaply, one with similar capabilities could probably be = done for $150,000. Still a big difference but not quite the ratio you mention. = To immitate a million-dollar pipe organ with an electronic is probably = going to run well over $200,000, assuming you don't buy casework, bone, moving drawknobs, real wood, etc. Couple that with the fact that the pipe organ = is somewhat likely to last 100 years while the electronic more like twenty, = and then you have to stop and think. If that is true (and I realize it may = not be quite), the two instruments have the same cost over 100 years, assuming = no inflation. Figure in inflation, and the pipe organ wins. I do realize = that there have been pipe organs that needed major repair in 20 years, but = usually these were poorly built or ruined by bad technicians. Admittedly, the electronic has the advantage of taking up less space, of costing less initially, probably taking less time for delivery (by the way = I think this is another major reason people go with electronics), and the = fact that its hard to predict if you'll even be in the same sanctuary in 20 years. So its certainly not cut and dry. I'm just not sure the price advantage of electronics is quite as huge as some think, in the long run. Andy On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:48:16 -0500, First Christian Church of Casey, IL = wrote > I don't know if anyone has ever made a study, but a major organ > purchase for a church is often due to a major gift from one or a > handful of people. So a church proudly claiming to have raised > funds for a million dollar instrument may, in fact, have raised only > a fraction of that, which was added to the major gift. > > I suspect many churches, at least those who don't have strong pipe organ > traditions in worship, go with electronics when they purchase > because it is easier to raise, say $50,000 than it is a million, not > solely because of the amount of money involved, but precisely > because of the stewardship issue. Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, > Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: Problems From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:30:15 +0800 Sorry to introduce this subject here but I see no other way of getting the = message through. I keep getting booted off PIPORG-L on the grounds that my mailbox is sending back the postings from PIPORG-L as "not known". This cannot be, since, before I get booted again with another message on the same lines = (it has happened four or five times in the past two weeks) I see my postings from PIPORG-L on the list so I must be receiving them OK and can't be returning them . My mailbox therefore cannot be refusing delivery or I would not be receiving them. The notification also tells me that I would = be losing private mail too through this problem. I am not aware that I have lost any private mail at all and Pipechat and EORG-L are not affected..I have contacted the administrators who put me back on the list but the rejection of my subscrption is still occurring on the grounds that = PIPORG-L postings are being rejected by my mail box.. My ISP assures me that there = is no problem at his end and that is borne out by the fact that pipechat and EORG-L are not affected and that I DO receive PIPORG postings, nor is my private email affected Has anyone any solution to this problem?. At present I can only forget PIPORG-L - let it go. If anyone has posted = mail to me and it has been returned will you please email me privately? Sorry for the off topic post. Thank you, Bob Elms.
(back) Subject: Don Leslie - personal rememberances From: "Charlie Lester" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:30:47 -0700 Very sorry to hear the news about Don Leslie. I am one of the privileged many who got to know Don during the course of his life. One of the most memorable afternoons in my life was spent in Don's home, entertaining Don, his dear wife Carolyn, and their sons in a "command performance" on the theremin with none other than the illustrious Bob Mitchell accompanying me -- both on Leslie's grand piano and on the superb theatre organ in his home (which contained many custom Leslie "exclusives" including an incredible audio system). It truly was an afternoon to savor, especially when I just sat back and listened to Don and Bob talk about "the good old days" -- they have been friends for many, many years. He'll truly be missed. Following is a writeup I did a couple of years ago for the Hammond List of which I was a member for a while. This article is based on conversations with both Bob Mitchell and Don Leslie, whom, as I said, I met through Bob Mitchell. If anyone cares to post this to the Electronic Organ List, that would be fine - I'm not a subscriber any longer to any lists but PIPORG-L and this one -- two discussion groups are about all I can handle. Oh, well, three groups if you include Levnet, the group devoted to the Theremin! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D One of my good friends is organist Bob Mitchell. Once upon a time he was a very noted, if in some quarters controversial, figger in the Los Angeles choral and organ music scene, and also played at several Los Angeles radio stations in the 1930s and '40s. He had a very well-known choir, the Mitchell Singing Boys, who went on several European tours and also appeared in a number of films in the 1930s incl "The Bells of St. Marys." One of the stories Bob has told me several times over the years involves a good friend of his named Don Leslie, who was a radio repairman employed by the Barker Brothers Department Store in Los Angeles. Don was also an amateur musician, playing, as Bob put it, "for his own amazement." In his home he had a Hammond Organ. (It must have been one of the first, as we are talking the mid 1930s here). Mr. Leslie liked his Hammond but did not like the "sterile, dry" tone quality of it. There was no life, or "movement" -- no sense of chorus or ensemble, as there was with the sound of even the smallest pipe organ. He wished there was some way to overcome the lifeless sound. One fine day in 1937 or '38, somewhere thereabouts, Mr. Leslie was standing in his front yard when a pickup truck drove by with a large radio speaker mounted on the flatbed, you know, one of those big horn-type speakers, which was broadcasting musical advertising announcements for a political candidate. He noticed as the truck drove by and down the road that the sound trailed off in pitch, his first observation of the well-known "doppler effect." And that got him to thinking. He had always thought the sound of the Hammond Organ was so dry, one of its greatest detriments and making it sound the most unlike a pipe organ. Hearing this dramatic demonstration of the Doppler Effect gave him the idea to experiment with a doppler type of effect for the Hammond tone cabinet, in order to smooth out the flat, dry sound. So he went out to a radio store and bought a "one-dollar" speaker to begin experimenting with. He originally was just thinking about using a slow-turning baffle to produce a "chorus" or "celeste" effect, but then he found that a faster speed also produced a very warm tremulant -- which sounded far richer than the electronic Tremulant (this was pre-vibrato days) on the Hammond. At the same time, Bob Mitchell was the studio organist for radio station KHJ, following Gaylord Carter. He then went to KFI Radio in 1939. While he was working at KFI, playing on the Hammond Organ in the studio, Mr. Leslie's wife Carolyn also worked at the station. Mr. Mitchell happened to mention something to her one day about not liking the dry sound of the Hammond and that he would like to buy some other type of organ, really wishing there was room for a Wurlitzer pipe organ. Mrs. Leslie told him, "Well, don't buy ANY organ until you hear what my husband has done!" So one Sunday morning, Mr. Mitchell went over to the Leslies' home in Altadena, California (where Mr. Leslie and his wife still live). Mr. Leslie took Mr. Mitchell into his living room where he saw a Hammond organ sitting there, and he noticed that there was a small hole cut in one of the doors in the living room that was covered with a "screen-type of curtain." [grille-cloth] Mr. Mitchell wondered, "What in the world..." Then Mr. Leslie invited him to sit at the console and play. As he did, he noticed that the sound was coming from the grille-covered hole in the wall -- the tone cabinet was in a large closet off the living room. Then Mr. Leslie flipped a switch on the console and, as Mr. Mitchell puts it, the sound of the Hammond just "spun into life!" He said it had the most glorious full and rich tremolo he had ever heard on an electronic organ! He asked Mr. Leslie how he did that. Mr. Leslie went over to the closet door, opened it, and showed Mr. Mitchell the rotating apparatus inside. This first Leslie consisted of an 18"-in-diameter metal horn (like the kind used on gramophones) mounted onto a revolving turntable. Attached inside the wide, belled end of horn was a speaker. As the turntable spun, the speaker spun around creating the doppler effect. And that was the humble beginning of the Leslie Speaker. Meanwhile, Mr. Mitchell went to Willard Brown, the Program Director for KFI, and told him about Don Leslie's new speaker. According to Mr. Mitchell, he convinced KFI to commission one of the special cabinets which could be selected by a switch on the console, and only Mr. Mitchell was ever to use the new speaker -- the other organists who played at the station were to use the standard Hammond Tone Cabinet. Mr. Brown wanted to know why Mr. Mitchell did not want other organists to use the special speaker, and he was adamant about it! He said, "That is MY sound and I don't want anyone else copying it!" (n.b. Mr. Leslie was surprised to hear that Bob Mitchell claimed to have a "Leslie" on the Hammond at KFI. He said it must have been one of their prototypes as it was not one of his speakers.) Mr. Mitchell also introduced Don Leslie to Willard Brown, who assigned some engineers -- from Cal Tech, Mr. Leslie recalled -- to work on the idea. They did, but in his words, "screwed up" the idea and their version did not work very well. They didn't really understand the concept, he said. Furthermore, Mr. Brown got scared away from the project when he tried to file a patent on it and discovered he could not. Seems that someone back in the 1920s had filed a patent for a record-player with three horns that rotated slowly on a turntable to enable everyone in a large room to hear the sounds from the phonograph! So, Mr. Brown "threw the ball" back to Mr. Leslie, who went back to work on the design. In 1940, after months of development, he made the first cabinet-style Leslie, in substantially the form of the model 30A he said, with a rotary horn and a bass reflector. Mr. Mitchell used the new Leslie Speaker on the Mutual Radio network which was heard all over the U.S. Mr. Leslie made some early records of Mr. Mitchell playing the first Hammond + Leslie combination. Mr. Mitchell said that the very first song that they recorded was "Tea for Two," and he still has the record "around here someplace." (By the way, Mr. Mitchell mentioned that the early Leslie cabinets were "gargantuan" -- the size of a refrigerator! But when people started wanting them for their homes, he came up with more compact and streamlined cabinetry.) Mr. Leslie told me a funny story about demonstrating the speaker for "the Hammond people." He got a prototype finished and installed it in the "Mona Lisa" bar, where Bob Mitchell was the house organist. The Mona Lisa was across from the Penny-Owsley Music Store in Los Angeles, at that time the area Hammond representatives. (Those who know their Hammond history will recall the noted theatre organist Jesse Crawford's affiliation with Penny-Owsley.) Men from the music store would come over to the bar, and when they got an earful of the sound from the Hammond they of course wanted to know how Mr. Mitchell got "that sound." But Don Leslie had secured the cabinet in such a way that they couldn't see what was inside it!! Mr. Leslie let the Hammond people "sweat for a couple of days" about the speaker, then called the store and offered to bring a model to the music store to demonstrate it. Penny-Owsley arranged for a group of about 50 organists to come in and here the demonstration. In Mr. Leslie's words, they "just fell apart" at the sound -- everyone just went ga-ga over it!" Mr. Leslie said that Paul Owsley was going around the room whispering to people, "Don't let him know it's any good!" Of course, some of those in the room were friends of his so this got back to him. After the demonstration, he wheeled the speaker out and loaded it on his "Model A pickup truck, " and said to Mr. Owsley, "Paul, people think is speaker is wonderful -- they have heard it on network radio, and many people want it. I need to hear from Hammond within 30 days about licensing my Leslie Speaker, or I am going to market it on my own." "Well," Mr. Leslie said to me on the phone, wrapping up the story, "The Hammond people did me a HUGE favor -- they did NOT call me within 30 days so I DID begin marketing them myself -- However, SEVENTEEN YEARS LATER, Hammond contacted me and wanted to buy my speaker! Too late!" And, as they say, "the rest ... is history." He found out later that Laurens Hammond did NOT like the idea of the Leslie speaker at all (perhaps professional jealousy -- who knows??), and he most definitely did not want anything to do with it. Well, Hammond's loss was Leslie's gain! Hammond tried several ways of producing the same chorus and tremolo effects, first introducing the double-generator chorus effect and then the new-style, and much-improved, Vibrato and, eventually, even coming up with their own type of rotary-baffle speaker. But none of these were as good as the sound of the Leslie Speaker. It's funny, somehow I had always figured the Leslie speaker had come along much later in the life of the Hammond. Maybe because so many of the Hammonds I recall seeing when I was a child still had straight tone cabinets. However, I have now learned that the Leslie came along when the Hammond was no more than, what, 3-4 years old! That's really amazing. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
(back) Subject: swell motors From: "Gary Black" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:00:34 -0500 List, I have a question. Our 1946 unit Wicks is having swell pouch motor problems. Two of them have blown out and the rest are still working. = Would it be better to put a trace on the shades ( the motors now only open two shades apiece) and install an electric swell motor or have the pneumatic ones rebuilt? Curious minds like mine want to know. lol Thanks for your help. Gary
(back) Subject: pipe organ prices From: "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:11:24 -0700 Something that has been overlooked is that the profit margin for pipe organs hasn't changed all that much, adjusted for inflation. If anything, it's gone DOWN. I don't recall offhand where I read it, but in the 1950s a typical rank of Aeolian-Skinner pipes cost as much as a mid-range automobile; the typical modest three-manual Anglican organ cost as much as a three-bedroom house. In 1955 our 3br house in Bartow Fla cost $29K; around 1960 the three-manual Aeolian-Skinner at St. Paul's in Winter Haven cost $49K, and the Positive was prepared for; my 1963 Buick Special cost $3K with trade-in. Today, new work costs anywhere from $10K-$30K per stop (and yes, there are builders out there who charge $30K per stop, and not just for party horns); cars -- our second-hand '91 Mitsubishi truck cost $5K + another $5K to rebuild it; houses -- I'm in a high-priced area of the country (SoCal), but it's no higher than the Eastern Corridor. A 3br house runs $300K-$500K; $500K will get you 25-35 stops (not ranks), depending on the number of 16's, reeds, etc. Priorities ... people who don't blanch at $500K houses have a yippin' FIT over $100K organs, even electronic substitutes. But prices REALLY haven't gone up that much, adjusted for inflation. I've also watched electronic prices creep up from less than $800 per stop to more than $3K per stop for custom work. Cheers, Bud