PipeChat Digest #4750 - Wednesday, September 8, 2004 Re: What might be happening to today's church TubaMagna's Comments by "Mattcinnj" <email@example.com> [Fwd: Used hymnals available] by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Problems by "Glenda" <email@example.com> The Bourne Estate Aeolian by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: swell motors by "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> RE: where does the money come from by "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: swell motors by "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Re: swell motors & linkages by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: MORE ORCHESTRAS, LESS ORGAN!?!?!?!?!? by "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: MORE ORCHESTRAS, LESS ORGAN!?!?!?!?!? by "Glenda" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: What might be happening to today's church TubaMagna's Comments From: "Mattcinnj" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Hi Everyone, By using terms such as average, I was hoping to indicate that I realized = that what I was about to say did not include every congregation's feelings = in this matter. If this were the case, the pipe organ industry would be = in considerably worse shape than it is now. Many people do indeed like pre 1800's organ music .... but I feel that = many MORE like organ transcriptions of a wide range of "Romantic" music = from classical and "pop" composers. .... Just like they did in the 1800's. = If I recall correctly Bach's manuscripts were being used to wrap fish = .... before Felix Mendelssohn (and a few others) took actions to correct = this. I believe attendance statistics for organ concerts being performed today = with this type of "popular" literature is indicative when compared to the = numbers that attend the "typical" organ recital. This point has been made = numerous times in this list and other places. Very significant sums have = recently been raised, rather easily for organs such as Wanamaker's and = Irvine Auditorium's ............ due to their ability to inspire a wide = range of folks playing this type of music. These organs have an abundance = of the kind of sounds MOST people find enjoyable. As to organ tuning, we are all aware that a sudden change in temperature = can "undo" in several hours, the most competent and inclusive tuning = efforts. Efforts that were concluded several hours before. I believe the = term"authentic French Tuning" was used to describe one such occurrence of = this for a concert on one of TubaMagna's rebuilds in NYC .... by TubaMagna = himself. I would be greatly surprised if the reeds at ST. Bart's or = Temple Emmanuel did not receive weekly tuning "touch ups". I don't = believe either of them restrict heating and cooling as does my church = year round. What would it cost to keep in tune even a very modest pipe = organ, (one with a single mixture and a single reed ) when the norm in = the summer and winter months is a weekly 20 degree change ? I'm out here in the mountains of North Carolina where the travel expenses = alone for bringing in a tuner ( never mind what it costs for the actual = tuning / maintenance work ) is large enough to cause budget headaches. My = church just suspended it's weekly broadcasts that cost $60.00 yes that's = Sixty dollars ......... each week due to not not having the $$$$$. Yes, = the same church that raised the $17,000 in a few months for the truck. = Folks here have no problem donating when they are told of the need to = minister to the sick and dying in our African Companion Parish = ............ but the same folks don't support the radio ministry, nor fund = raising for a new organ. It's the "cost benefit" analysis we all do consciously and unconsciously. = This is not going to change. Pipe organs are an almost non-existent priority for MOST people in this = country ..... and my original point was that this is due to what organists = have played, and what kind of pipe organs they demanded be built ..... = since the mid 1950's. If there were absolutely no alternatives to the = pipe organ, pipe organs could have "survived" this situation .... but that = wasn't / isn't the case. In an age when folks are used to having a 100 = different models to choose from, for cars, phones, TVs, shoes ... you name = it ... it is hard for them to believe that ONLY a real pipe organ is the = ONLY proper means of providing music in their churches. This is my "take" on what is happening in many churches in this country. The other side of the coin, and this is what I am sure TubaMagna is = alluding to ................... is that a fine pipe organ, in "good" = tune, played sensitively with an ear toward's what most folks in a = congregation find "inspiring" ......... is an experience that many folks = find WORTH the expense and effort. Thank God that they do !!! This requires that pipe organ builders, organist's and organ curators all = do "their part" .... and I believe that TubaMagna has alluded to this also = over the years. Matt TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: It might be unproductive to generalize about musical tastes or desires, especially when blanket statements really do not apply. I refuse to = believe that people dislike pre-1800 music; I venture to think that more people = relate to Bach, Handel, and Mozart than to Stravinsky, Brahms, Franck, and Ligeti. Likewise, are pipe organs really always out of tune? If so, fire your "tech" and hire a professional organ tuner more than once a year. Congregants don't dislike mixtures, or any other stops in particular. They REALLY dislike organists who play on full organ all the time, without = subtlety or nuance, and they are quite vocal about it. We cannot complain = that they don't understand the beauty and range of the organ if we do not = demonstrate it. How do we explain rural congregations and parishes, supposedly out of touch with the main stream, who educate themselves, go through the = selection process, and raise the money for fine pipe organs? While almost all = organesque instruments in the world are pipeless, we must find out why truly fine = all-pipe organs ARE showing up in what many consider to be "unlikely" = congregations. That might be more interesting, especially in light of the fact that good = pipe organs ARE being built without the single-donor factor, but rather with = the smaller contributions of many. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/ .. ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:email@example.com Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
(back) Subject: [Fwd: Used hymnals available] From: "Liquescent" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:17:26 -0700 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Used hymnals available Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:04:46 EDT From: OrganStopSales@aol.com To: undisclosed-recipients:; Friends, Attached is a list of used hymnals which have come to us recently. Some are from an earlier collection while most are from the James Staatz estate donated via St.Marks' United Methodist Church in San Diego where Jim served as organist for thirty years. As usual, proceeds from these sales benefit the San Diego Chapter, American Guild of Organists. Generally the books are in good, usable condition. A few could be considered "like new." The rough ones have been discarded. They are grouped by church denomination. There are two prices. $5 for books with 500 or more pages, $3 for smaller ones. Shipping will be by Media Mail due to heavy weights. To order, please list the one(s) you want in a return email and I will reply with availability (sold first come, first served) and total price. We can send an invoice or bill your credit card. Your choice. Hopefully one or more of these fine old books will be a useful addition to your library. George L. Butterfield, Manager Organ Stop, Inc. 6545 El Cajon Blvd. San Diego, CA 92115 619-286-4633 www.organstop.com Used Hymnals, various HYMN BOOK TITLE Denomination Publ, copyright No.Pages copies avail. Or Hymns Chinese Evangelical Hymnody Chinese Evangelcl Hong Kong , 1972 591 1 Hymns for God's People Chinese Evangelcl Hymns for Gods People = 1984 527 1 Christian Science Hymnal Christian Science CS Publ. 1937 629 2 Christian Science Hymnal (small) Christian Science CS Publ. 1937 629 1 Pilgrim Hymnal Congregational Pilgrim Press 1935 551 1 Hymnal of Protestant Episopal Ch Episcopal Seabury, 1943 820 1 Hymnal 1940, spiral bound ed. Episcopal Church Pension Fund 1943 828 1 Hymnal 1982 Episcopal Church Pension Fund 1985 1070 1 Hymns III, spiral bound Episcopal Church Pension Fund 1981 250 1 Hymns LDS LDS Publ 1948 387 1 Deseret Sunday School Songs LDS LDS Publ 1909 296 1 Lutheran Hymnal Lutheran ELCA CPH 858 1 Evangelical Lutheran Hymnal Lutheran ELCA Augustana 946 1 Service Book and Hymnal Lutheran LCA 1012 3 Lutheran Worship Lutheran LCMS CPH 1005 1 Methodist Hymnal, The Meth-Episcopal MethodistConcern, 1931 748 1 Methodist Hymnal, The Meth-Episcopal Meth.Epis.1878 492 1 Methodist Hymnal, The Methodist Meth.Pub 847 2 Our Hymnody (Concordance) Methodist Abingdon 619 1 Methodist Hymnal, The Methodist Methodist Pub 695 1 United Methodist Hymnal Methodist United UMeth.PublHouse 962 1 Trinity Hymnal Orthodox Presb Orthodox Presb 746 1 Hymnal, The Presbyterian PresbBoard 608 1 Hymn Book, The Presbyterian Presb.Ch.US 576 1 Cantate Domino Hymnal Supplement RC GIA, 1979 962 1 Glory & Praise Vol. III RC NALR, 1982 199 1 St.Gregory Hymnal&Cath.Choir Bk RC St.Gregory Guild 1947 337 3 Worship II RC GIA, 1975 1116 1 Praise God In Song RC GIA, 1979 328 1 Westminster Hymnal, The RC in Britain Burns&Oates LTD, London = 1962 452 1 Church Hymnal, The Seventh Day Adv Review&Herald 640 1 Childrens Hymnal x CPH 102 12 Hymns for the Living Age x Century Co.,1923 459 1 New Hymnal for American Youth x Revell, 1930 368 1 Student Hymnary x AS Barnes, 1937 482 1 Worship & Praise x Hope Publ 1931 333 1
(back) Subject: RE: Problems From: "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:15:08 -0500 Bob, I had to let Piporg-L go because I kept getting bumped off it, even after I went to considerable expense to get satellite internet and boost my signal and strength. It had nothing to do with personalities or ill feelings. Ben and I have talked about it several times, but their settings are somehow stricter I guess. Glenda Sutton email@example.com
(back) Subject: The Bourne Estate Aeolian From: "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:53:26 -0700 That classified ad in the Diapason solved a great mystery (chuckle). The other half of the Bourne Estate Aeolian is sitting in Lemon Grove Congregational Church (UCC), Lemon Grove, CA (outside San Diego), minus the console that Toledo Pipe Orgay Co. supplied when the organ was divided up. Its original San Diego home was 1st Unitarian-Universalist Church, now converted to condos; I THINK it was moved to the new church; at some point it was replaced by an Abbott and Sieker, which was recently rebuilt by an organ-builder from the Great Northwet who had worked on the original A & S installation as an apprentice. I'm not quite sure how it got to Lemon Grove; but it's there, or was a few months ago when a friend of mine substituted there. There have been various schemes over the years to unite it with a used Moller and/or hook it up to the church's Rodgers, but nothing ever seems to come of it. I don't think it ever played in the Lemon Grove location, but I'm not sure. The Toledo Pipe Organ Co. console WAS there at one point, but has been removed. So if anyone wants to reunite the two halves, one is in San Diego (grin). Cheers, Bud Clark San Diego CA
(back) Subject: RE: swell motors From: "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:09:11 -0500 Excellent point! I suspect it would also end up being the most expensive arrangement, but likely the most reliable and long-lasting. I have also seen some really long mechanical swell linkages, even on electric action = or especially TP organs. I'm all for it. I guess the question is could you build all that linkage for less than the $1500 or so that buys an electric = actuator (I think I could in certain cases). But when you consider that = the the mechanical linkage is, in many ways, better, you could argue it worth doing even if is does cost more. Andy On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:20:18 -0400, Andrew Mead wrote > You've left out the best possible arrangement. Add a trace rod and > have a direct mechanical link to the expression pedal. It's not > always possible to do this but if the console is close to the organ > it should be at least considered. > > Remember, the "swell motor" was developed in reaction to expression chambers > being placed too far from the console. I've seen mechanical links > running up to a hundred feet in total length. If it's done properly > it's far better than any electric or electro pneumatic system. > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: RE: where does the money come from From: "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 18:09:08 -0500 It has been my experience in the deep South that generally a pipe organ is the result of one donor. In fact, I am aware of several churches where the donor actually specified the maker/model. It is so hard in these days of instant gratification to get a church, already straining with stewardship concerns and politics, to agree on the investment of a pipe organ and to work diligently toward raising the funding for it. I am so thankful that St. A had a priest who had a dream, the temerity to doggedly pursue it, the builder in tow, and the persuasive charm to talk donors into giving him what he needed. I am also sad that they don't have an organist now to play it, and no money to hire a qualified musician. Glenda Sutton email@example.com
(back) Subject: Re: swell motors From: "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:21:48 -0500 Good point, but converting to more contacts at the pedal isn't that difficult. Done that. Took me more time to build the shade dogs, trace, set up the swell motor, etc. If I was going to do the conversion = (unlikely) the number of contacts at the pedal would be a consideration but not a showstopper by any means. Andy > > If you have 10 contacts available, then you might want to consider > replacing the pneumatic swell motor, tying the shades together with > a trace and intalling a Peterson swell shade operator (set up for 8 > stages of expression.) the reason you need ten is that one supplies > the current to the other contacts and you should have a spare. > > Rick in VA A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: Re: swell motors & linkages From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:34:24 EDT The Swell division in our little organ at The Church of Our Lady of Loretto in Cold Spring, New York, has a mechanical linkage to the = expression shutters, which are oriented vertically, which certainly helps when = balancing the action. The pedal is in standard AGO position, and can be seen by = double-clicking on the photograph of the keydesk that is on our website (go to = "Instruments," then to "Our Lady of Loretto" in the pulldown menu). The linkage is direct and simple, using standard metal parts and = seasoned hardwood. This type of expression mechanism permits "stepless" movement, = good control, and develops the muscles of at least one calf... Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/ ..
(back) Subject: Re: MORE ORCHESTRAS, LESS ORGAN!?!?!?!?!? From: "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:50:33 -0500 The whole of point of the organ has always been that it allows one person = to accompany many. An orchestra is great, but that's a lot of musicians to pay! But if they want to spend their money that way, why not? A choir accompanied by an orchestra is amazing! I guess they probably already = have a paid orchestra in the pit anyway? If so, heck, yeah, use 'em! If not, they may be shocked at what an orchestra costs and rethink. Andy A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: RE: MORE ORCHESTRAS, LESS ORGAN!?!?!?!?!? From: "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:08:28 -0500 Hope they have a big choir. Glenda Sutton email@example.com