PipeChat Digest #5261 - Wednesday, April 6, 2005
 
RE: The Pope and Sacred Music
  by "Dominic Scullion" <dominicscullion@email.com>
Re: The Pope and Sacred Music
  by "jonkroepel" <jonkroepel@insightbb.com>
Re: Catholic Hymns
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
Re: The Pope and Sacred Music
  by "jonkroepel" <jonkroepel@insightbb.com>
Re: The Pope and Sacred Music
  by "Scott A Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: The Church and Sacred Music
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Wedding fees and accompanists
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
 

(back) Subject: RE: The Pope and Sacred Music From: "Dominic Scullion" <dominicscullion@email.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:05:47 +0100   Hi Monty.   I agree with you that at first glance this appears to be stupid, but the point is that in a lot of churches people don't want to sing anymore. If there is someone belting a tune if their ears, I think people feel less self-conscious about singing themselves. The focus is not on them if you = see where I am coming from.   Best wishes,   Dominic Scullion     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of RMB10@aol.com Sent: 06 April 2005 16:00 To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: The Pope and Sacred Music     Some good points have been made here about the state of RC music, but I = have     a question.   Having many members of my extended family who are Catholic, and having played   for a RC church in my younger days, as well as being asked to fill in when = I     go to visit my relatives, I don't understand the whole cantor/song leader   crooning into the microphone thing. Can someone please explain the necessity of a   warbly soloist belting out a hymn like "Holy God We Praise Thy Name" or = some     other hymn that people know? I understand a songleader needing to do it = on   some of the unsingable tunes that populate the missalettes, that are = unknown     outside the RC realm.     Many large evangelical churches (mine included) use a songleader as a   conductor of the congregation on the singing of hymns, but no microphone = is involved   and I think it is a tradition that stems from the old revival/campmeeting   days. The songleader is more of a cheerleader getting people involved, = but   truthfully, most people don't watch as they are following the words and music in the   hymnal (as at my church) or on a screen.     I understand the need of a cantor to sing the Psalm verses and Alleluia   verses when no choir is present, but will someone please explain to me the NEED of   a songleader warbling away into a mic on the hymns? To me it seems pointless   and makes the congregation want to NOT sing. At my grandparent's church = in   Ft. Lauderdale, the "Music Director" (that's her title--I don't know why, since   there is NO music program, no choir, no youth/children's choir, no handbells,   no instrumentalists, etc.--just her and the "organist", who is a bad = lounge   piano player) play and sing everything as if it's a cheesy Las Vegas = lounge act.   She milks the phrases of every hymn to the point that they're unsingable and   she literally eats the microphone. The congregation just sits there and   listens, even on hymns/songs that are Catholic favorites. Don't get me started on   the organist's playing, because if one could actually sing with his   accompaniments it would be a miracle--the pumping of the Rodgers' swell pedals and the   jacked up trems would give any theatre organ a run for it's money! I have =     already announced that when either of my grandparents die, I will handle = all the   music, those two will NOT have any part because the music is going to be good   and the congregation is going to sing.     A couple of years ago my mother and I both flew to visit my grandparents = to   celebrate my Grandfather's birthday, which just happened to fall on = Mother's     Day weekend. I sucked it up and went to church with them all, being the dutiful   and doting grandson that I am LOL, and was horrified at the music. During =     communion, the musical dog and pony show proceeded to launch into a   soul-stirring rendition of "MOTHER". "M is for the many things...etc." I looked over at   my mother who was about ready to fall over laughing, she then punched me = in   the leg and said in that under the breath tone that only a mother can do   "do...not....say...a...word...." Of course, with my big mouth, I just blurted it out   anyway...I said, "This is completely inappropriate for a church service, = let     alone for the communion service." Well, at that point she just burst out   laughing. Not only was it just a tacky song, it was poorly done.     I've seen some really tacky things in Protestant churches, so it's not a bash   against Catholics, but the Catholics seem to take the cake with the = crooning     songleaders and microphones. Praise and Worship music uses microphones = but   the worship leader is usually feeding the words to the = congregation--lining out   the song, if you will. So the concept is a totally different take on the   theme, WHEN it's done right.     Please explain because I can't figure it out.     Monty Bennett     ******************************************************************   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!"   PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics   HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org   List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org   Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org   List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org>   List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org>   List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Re: The Pope and Sacred Music From: "jonkroepel" <jonkroepel@insightbb.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:19:36 -0500   While many Catholic churches have cantors who don't sing all that well, I = am happy that those individuals are willing to take part in the music = ministry. We as musicians can help them the best we can, after all not all of us = have a budget that will allow for a classically trained singer. I am fortunate =   to have several well trained voices in my choir.   As for the cantor singing into the microphone and performing for the congregation, this act doesn't do anything but discourage good congregational singing. Those of us in litugical churches can use these cantors for responsorial psalms, but probably should not use them for = hymns. The organist can lead a congreation better(HOPEFULLY!). Over the last 40 years the Roman Catholic church has tried to encourage congregational singing. I have witnessed at fellow list member, Scott Montgomery's = church a complete turn around in the music program within the past 5 years. At Scott's church, they used to have a huge diet of Gather music, but fortunately there is more of a balance.   There is still hope for church music!   Jon Kroepel     ----- Original Message ----- From: <RMB10@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:59 AM Subject: Re: The Pope and Sacred Music     > Some good points have been made here about the state of RC music, but I > have > a question. > Having many members of my extended family who are Catholic, and having > played > for a RC church in my younger days, as well as being asked to fill in = when > I > go to visit my relatives, I don't understand the whole cantor/song = leader > crooning into the microphone thing. Can someone please explain the > necessity of a > warbly soloist belting out a hymn like "Holy God We Praise Thy Name" or > some > other hymn that people know? I understand a songleader needing to do it =   > on > some of the unsingable tunes that populate the missalettes, that are > unknown > outside the RC realm. > > Many large evangelical churches (mine included) use a songleader as a > conductor of the congregation on the singing of hymns, but no microphone =   > is involved > and I think it is a tradition that stems from the old = revival/campmeeting > days. The songleader is more of a cheerleader getting people involved, > but > truthfully, most people don't watch as they are following the words and > music in the > hymnal (as at my church) or on a screen. > > I understand the need of a cantor to sing the Psalm verses and Alleluia > verses when no choir is present, but will someone please explain to me = the > NEED of > a songleader warbling away into a mic on the hymns? To me it seems > pointless > and makes the congregation want to NOT sing. At my grandparent's church =   > in > Ft. Lauderdale, the "Music Director" (that's her title--I don't know = why, > since > there is NO music program, no choir, no youth/children's choir, no > handbells, > no instrumentalists, etc.--just her and the "organist", who is a bad > lounge > piano player) play and sing everything as if it's a cheesy Las Vegas > lounge act. > She milks the phrases of every hymn to the point that they're unsingable =   > and > she literally eats the microphone. The congregation just sits there and > listens, even on hymns/songs that are Catholic favorites. Don't get me > started on > the organist's playing, because if one could actually sing with his > accompaniments it would be a miracle--the pumping of the Rodgers' swell > pedals and the > jacked up trems would give any theatre organ a run for it's money! I = have > already announced that when either of my grandparents die, I will handle =   > all the > music, those two will NOT have any part because the music is going to be =   > good > and the congregation is going to sing. > > A couple of years ago my mother and I both flew to visit my grandparents =   > to > celebrate my Grandfather's birthday, which just happened to fall on > Mother's > Day weekend. I sucked it up and went to church with them all, being the =   > dutiful > and doting grandson that I am LOL, and was horrified at the music. = During > communion, the musical dog and pony show proceeded to launch into a > soul-stirring rendition of "MOTHER". "M is for the many things...etc." = I > looked over at > my mother who was about ready to fall over laughing, she then punched me =   > in > the leg and said in that under the breath tone that only a mother can do > "do...not....say...a...word...." Of course, with my big mouth, I just > blurted it out > anyway...I said, "This is completely inappropriate for a church service, =   > let > alone for the communion service." Well, at that point she just burst = out > laughing. Not only was it just a tacky song, it was poorly done. > > I've seen some really tacky things in Protestant churches, so it's not a =   > bash > against Catholics, but the Catholics seem to take the cake with the > crooning > songleaders and microphones. Praise and Worship music uses microphones > but > the worship leader is usually feeding the words to the > congregation--lining out > the song, if you will. So the concept is a totally different take on = the > theme, WHEN it's done right. > > Please explain because I can't figure it out. > > Monty Bennett > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Catholic Hymns From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:20:44 -0400   Monty asked: "I don't understand the whole cantor/song leader crooning into the microphone thing. Can someone please explain the necessity of a warbly soloist belting out a hymn like "Holy God We Praise Thy Name" or = some other hymn that people know? I understand a songleader needing to do it = on some of the unsingable tunes that populate the missalettes, that are = unknown outside the RC realm. Many large evangelical churches (mine included) use = a songleader as a conductor of the congregation on the singing of hymns, but no microphone = is involved ..."   If you think that's bad, picture this scene from a church where I substituted: a dwindling, dying Methodist congregation of about 40 souls sparsely sprinkled throughout a sanctuary that would easily accommodate 350-400. A 50-year-old, ill-maintained, wheezing Wicks that wouldn't have been adequate for the space even in its prime. And a pastor with a REEALLY =   BAD singing voice croaking loudly off-key right into her mike through = every hymn.   I'm getting queasy all over again just thinking about it.    
(back) Subject: Re: The Pope and Sacred Music From: "jonkroepel" <jonkroepel@insightbb.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:23:39 -0500   I think people need to be taught once again that the organ is the best = organ for leading a congreation. In my new position, I have started playing Saturday services on the organ where before they were played on the piano. =   The clergy were reluctant to allow this change, but I informed them that = the organ provided more support for singing and a person feels more = comfortable.   Jon Kroepel    
(back) Subject: Re: The Pope and Sacred Music From: "Scott A Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:41:10 -0700 (PDT)   Thank you Jon, for your nice post on my church music program. We have = changed a lot of things in the church as far as music, and the = congregation sings better than ever. Cantors sing for responses, but the announce the hymns and back away from = the microphone. They can still be heard, but that are not playing the = role of soloist. The organ has a more important role, and its nice to use = the organ to it's full potential, whereas before I mainly just used 8 and = 4's. Scott Montgomery www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net     jonkroepel <jonkroepel@insightbb.com> wrote: While many Catholic churches have cantors who don't sing all that well, I = am happy that those individuals are willing to take part in the music = ministry. We as musicians can help them the best we can, after all not all of us = have a budget that will allow for a classically trained singer. I am fortunate to have several well trained voices in my choir.   As for the cantor singing into the microphone and performing for the congregation, this act doesn't do anything but discourage good congregational singing. Those of us in litugical churches can use these cantors for responsorial psalms, but probably should not use them for = hymns. The organist can lead a congreation better(HOPEFULLY!). Over the last 40 years the Roman Catholic church has tried to encourage congregational singing. I have witnessed at fellow list member, Scott Montgomery's church =   a complete turn around in the music program within the past 5 years. At Scott's church, they used to have a huge diet of Gather music, but fortunately there is more of a balance.   There is still hope for church music!   Jon Kroepel     ----- Original Message ----- From: To:   Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:59 AM Subject: Re: The Pope and Sacred Music     > Some good points have been made here about the state of RC music, but I > have > a question. > Having many members of my extended family who are Catholic, and having > played > for a RC church in my younger days, as well as being asked to fill in = when > I > go to visit my relatives, I don't understand the whole cantor/song = leader > crooning into the microphone thing. Can someone please explain the > necessity of a > warbly soloist belting out a hymn like "Holy God We Praise Thy Name" or > some > other hymn that people know? I understand a songleader needing to do it > on > some of the unsingable tunes that populate the missalettes, that are > unknown > outside the RC realm. > > Many large evangelical churches (mine included) use a songleader as a > conductor of the congregation on the singing of hymns, but no microphone =   > is involved > and I think it is a tradition that stems from the old = revival/campmeeting > days. The songleader is more of a cheerleader getting people involved, > but > truthfully, most people don't watch as they are following the words and > music in the > hymnal (as at my church) or on a screen. > > I understand the need of a cantor to sing the Psalm verses and Alleluia > verses when no choir is present, but will someone please explain to me = the > NEED of > a songleader warbling away into a mic on the hymns? To me it seems > pointless > and makes the congregation want to NOT sing. At my grandparent's church > in > Ft. Lauderdale, the "Music Director" (that's her title--I don't know = why, > since > there is NO music program, no choir, no youth/children's choir, no > handbells, > no instrumentalists, etc.--just her and the "organist", who is a bad > lounge > piano player) play and sing everything as if it's a cheesy Las Vegas > lounge act. > She milks the phrases of every hymn to the point that they're unsingable =   > and > she literally eats the microphone. The congregation just sits there and > listens, even on hymns/songs that are Catholic favorites. Don't get me > started on > the organist's playing, because if one could actually sing with his > accompaniments it would be a miracle--the pumping of the Rodgers' swell > pedals and the > jacked up trems would give any theatre organ a run for it's money! I = have > already announced that when either of my grandparents die, I will handle =   > all the > music, those two will NOT have any part because the music is going to be =   > good > and the congregation is going to sing. > > A couple of years ago my mother and I both flew to visit my grandparents =   > to > celebrate my Grandfather's birthday, which just happened to fall on > Mother's > Day weekend. I sucked it up and went to church with them all, being the > dutiful > and doting grandson that I am LOL, and was horrified at the music. = During > communion, the musical dog and pony show proceeded to launch into a > soul-stirring rendition of "MOTHER". "M is for the many things...etc." I =   > looked over at > my mother who was about ready to fall over laughing, she then punched me =   > in > the leg and said in that under the breath tone that only a mother can do > "do...not....say...a...word...." Of course, with my big mouth, I just > blurted it out > anyway...I said, "This is completely inappropriate for a church service, =   > let > alone for the communion service." Well, at that point she just burst out > laughing. Not only was it just a tacky song, it was poorly done. > > I've seen some really tacky things in Protestant churches, so it's not a =   > bash > against Catholics, but the Catholics seem to take the cake with the > crooning > songleaders and microphones. Praise and Worship music uses microphones > but > the worship leader is usually feeding the words to the > congregation--lining out > the song, if you will. So the concept is a totally different take on the > theme, WHEN it's done right. > > Please explain because I can't figure it out. > > Monty Bennett > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: > List-Digest: > List-Unsubscribe: > >     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:         Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St Champaign, IL 61820 217-390-0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net  
(back) Subject: Re: The Church and Sacred Music From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:46:57 EDT   Dear Monty:   I can see your point about soloists. When Catholic Bishops feel the need to intervene and rewite musical norms and history of church music this is what you get. Half cocked lounge acts being pressed into service to assuage their boredom. It doesn't have to be good, it just needs to be loud, irritating and obnoxious. IMHO most of these guys have poor taste, and as we've always known tin ears. It doesn't bother them at all. We're branching out and being Evangelical doncha know. What it is, is trying to be what you are not. That's the state of Catholic music world wide these days. These are administrators, and politicians not necessarily Holy men. They live in their own little isolated world far from the criticism they = desperately need to hear. Now, none of this is expressed in the vatican II documents, it's totally out of control, especially in the US, except for a few exceptions. What I don't like is that they have seen fit to JAM IT DOWN OUR THROATS! The attitude is You will do it, and eventually like it. SORRY, NO TAKERS, but they keep doing it anyway. CHURCHES are CLOSING right and left. Do We Have to ASK WHY?   We Need another Pope Like PIUS X. Here's an interesting sidelight on him. He was not Italian, He was born in Poland. His last name was Krawitz and when the family moved from Poland to Italy they changed their name to Sardo. Krawitz and Sardo tranlate to English( Taylor ) He was born Josep Melchior Krawitz. So, John Paul II was the second Polish Pope of the 20th Century 75 years apart. Franz Joseph The Hungarian Emperor tried to hide his Polishness by have records destroyed, but he indeed missed one. There's a whole story behind this, I will go into if anybody is = interested. It would make fascinating reading. PIUS X was Polish.   He championed good Catholic Music, as there were excesses then as there are now. We need another one to straighten it out again.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Wedding fees and accompanists From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:05:29 -0500   Whatever the relative difficulties of transposing written music for the=20=   accompaniment or the melody line, surely it is vastly more important=20 that the soloist have the music in his/her key, since the voice is much=20=   more limited in range than the keyboard. You can't ask a bass to sing a=20=   tenor arrangement just because that's what you have on hand.   Russ Greene         On Apr 4, 2005, at 9:51 PM, Justinhartz@aol.com wrote:   > =A0=A0=A0 Transposing a full accompaniment written on two or three = staves=20 > and in two clefs is much more demanding than transposing one line of=20=   > melody notes which are sung or played one at a time. (As a former=20 > brass player, I can attest to this).=