PipeChat Digest #5287 - Saturday, April 23, 2005
 
Console Identity Crisis
  by "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net>
PipeChat IRC Tonight
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
RE: Woodstock Pipe Organ Co.
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: Case of the "Discovered" Organ!!
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
Re: Woodstock Pipe Organ Co.
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Messiaen's L'Ascension
  by "Stan Yoder" <vze2myh5@verizon.net>
Re:Case of the "Discovered" Organ!!
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
RE: Console Identity Crisis
  by "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net>
Quantum (was: Carlo Curley)
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Big ChicAGO party tonight at 4th Pres
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Richard Haffer, R.I.P. [x-posted]
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Saint-Saens Oratorio de Noel (cross-pollinated)
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Most Progressive Denomination
  by <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: Most Progressive Denomination
  by <rredman@imagin.net>
Any known Cole's?!? (x-posted)
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
Re: Woodstock Pipe Organ Co.
  by "nelson denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
Re: Messiaen's L'Ascension
  by "John Seboldt" <rohrwerk@seboldt.net>
 

(back) Subject: Console Identity Crisis From: "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:09:23 -0400   > Ah, but don't you see, it also works in reverse. I had the new > pipework for > St. Peter's built by Tommy Anderson, and I had everything else redone > in > something closer to what I've seen John Hendriksen done to > "Skinnerize," to > quote him, a non-Skinner organ. Thus, adding a real Aeolian-Skinner > console to our instrument, although the   > insides are all new, added a whole different dimension to playing the > organ.   > Playing from a Skinner console, regardless the make of organ, is much > more   > satisfying than a plasticized Klann consolette!   I agree that playing a Skinner console is more enjoyable than a supply house one. However, the inner workings of a nuked console don't do anything for me though... There's nothing like peeling off the side panel of a Skinner console and seeing a nice jamb unit, made of maple, with cherry traces. Even the smell is nice! (C:   - Nate      
(back) Subject: PipeChat IRC Tonight From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:40:14 -0500   Since Bob Conway is off in England I thought I should post a note to remind everyone about PipeChat's "live" Chat on IRC which happens every Monday and Friday night beginning at 9:00 PM EASTERN time. Since the server has been on the new network for all of this week there shouldn't be any problems connecting with it.   For information about how to join please go to: http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html   We are always glad to see new folks join us. And if you do join for the first time please don't be shy - introduce yourself and join in the discussions.   See you there!   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: RE: Woodstock Pipe Organ Co. From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:19:27 -0400   At 05:17 PM 2005-04-21, you wrote:   > >The Woodstock Crgan Companies of Woodstock Ontario built hundreds of = organs > >in the 1920'-1940's. The majority of them had horse shoe consoles with = roll >tops. I've got 3 shells in storage!. > >Ah yes. My small upright piano was made in the early 1930s by Karn of >Woodstock, Ontario. A superb touch: very positive and direct but also = light. >I've had not a single fault in the action since buying the piano in 1975. >The treble is very warm and crisp, the mid-range lovely for Haydn, Mozart >etc., but below 10 2/3 GGG the bass is not especially good at all. > >Is Karn the same company as you referred to? > >Ross   Ross,   Woodstock, Ont. seems to at one time have been a centre for piano and organbuilding. In the late 1800s there was Samuel Warren building pipe organs, as well as Karn, building reed organs and pianos. At some point Warren and Karn got together and built pipe organs under the name = Karn-Warren.   Woodstock Pipe Organ Co. may very well have been a successor company of the old Karn-Warren firm. As Nelson D. said, they built quite a number of =   organs with a horseshoe console, and the voicing was orchestral. I = studied organ on their 4-manual showpiece at Chalmers United Church in Woodstock, and it was pretty good for playing Willan, Elgar, and stuff like that. Obviously it was less suitable for German baroque.   About 20 years ago, an outfit called Principal Pipe Organ Co. redid the organ, and added a residence organ. They mixed and matched the 2 organs together, and the result is a mongrel organ. A disappointment for me when =   I played it. From a historical point of view they ruined it, as in my = view it was very much a quality period instrument (1930s).   Arie V.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263      
(back) Subject: Re: Case of the "Discovered" Organ!! From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:31:44 -0500   Unfourtuanately, it seems that the organ is unplayable. The Facade, along with what I take to be the Vox Humana, is still there, but no other ranks are evident in the church. Too bad, but thats the way it must be.     NFR     On 4/22/05, Randy Terry <randy@peacham.homeip.net> wrote: > Please let us know anything you find out. Do I sense a detective novel in > the works??! >=20 > =20 >=20 > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >=20 > Randy Terry >=20 > Music Minister >=20 > The Episcopal Church of St. Peter >=20 > Redwood City, California >=20 > _____ =20 >=20 > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of N= .. > Russotto > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 7:32 AM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Case of the "Discovered" Organ!! >=20 > =20 >=20 > I thought I noticed something funny about this church when I saw it. The > outside looks much bigger than the inside, due to the boarded-up orgn lof= t > in the back. I had always assumed that whatever organ was dead or removed= , > but this isn't the case! I found what looks to be an old Skinner, about a > III/30, I would imaginen that it isnt wired up. . . gonna go check the > blowers and see how bad it is...=20 >=20 > --=20 > Nicholas F. Russotto > Somers, Connecticut > Organist, Holy Cross PNCC > Enfield, Connecticut > Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 > http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/ > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20   --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: Re: Woodstock Pipe Organ Co. From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:59:53 -0500   The principals in the Woodstock Pipe Organ Company were, according to = David Fox's book, William Potter and J. Alfred Webb. Both of these were Englishmen who worked at Wurlitzer. Potter moved from Wurlitzer to Karn-Warren in Woodstock before setting up his own business in the city, bringing in his old friend Webb from Wurlitzer as partner. Thus the Woodstock connection is that one of the partners was a former Karn-Warren employee.   When you get one important company operating in a city it tends to result = in numerous other firms in the same locality, as employees leave and set up their own businesses. Consider, for example, all the firms that have = sprung up in St. Hyacinthe, the home of Casavant.   John Speller   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 9:19 AM Subject: RE: Woodstock Pipe Organ Co.     > At 05:17 PM 2005-04-21, you wrote: > Woodstock, Ont. seems to at one time have been a centre for piano and > organbuilding. In the late 1800s there was Samuel Warren building pipe > organs, as well as Karn, building reed organs and pianos. At some point > Warren and Karn got together and built pipe organs under the name Karn-Warren. > > Woodstock Pipe Organ Co. may very well have been a successor company of > the old Karn-Warren firm. As Nelson D. said, they built quite a number = of > organs with a horseshoe console, and the voicing was orchestral. I studied > organ on their 4-manual showpiece at Chalmers United Church in = Woodstock, > and it was pretty good for playing Willan, Elgar, and stuff like > that. Obviously it was less suitable for German baroque. > > About 20 years ago, an outfit called Principal Pipe Organ Co. redid the > organ, and added a residence organ. They mixed and matched the 2 organs > together, and the result is a mongrel organ. A disappointment for me = when > I played it. From a historical point of view they ruined it, as in my view > it was very much a quality period instrument (1930s).      
(back) Subject: Messiaen's L'Ascension From: "Stan Yoder" <vze2myh5@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:12:18 -0400   Regarding part IV, the title, translated, is "Prayer from Christ ascending = towards His Father," with a quote from St. John's gospel. That quote is from chapter 17, the = so-called 'high-priestly prayer,' which occurs before the Passion (let alone the Resurrection and = Ascension.) The title, therefore, requires a chronological stretch. Or should it be put down to 'composer's = license?'   Anyone else ever noticed this?   Stan Yoder Pittsburgh  
(back) Subject: Re:Case of the "Discovered" Organ!! From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:48:07 -0400   Ooh! Tell the minister in charge that I will gladly remove all that old junk for a most reasonable fee. How big a truck should I bring?   -WG   >I thought I noticed something funny about this church when I saw it. The >outside looks much bigger than the inside, due to the boarded-up orgn = loft >in the back. I had always assumed that whatever organ was dead or = removed, >but this isn't the case! I found what looks to be an old Skinner, about a >III/30, I would imaginen that it isnt wired up. . . gonna go check the >blowers and see how bad it is... >      
(back) Subject: RE: Console Identity Crisis From: "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:21:35 -0700   I agree! Everybody has heard me say that my personal opinion was that the console (in mint working condition) should have been retained with the original organ and NOT replaced by an Allen console with many digital = stops.   The console was extremely heavy. All of the combination machine was self-contained, and it was definitely a masterful piece of work.   I felt almost sinful as I began to remove the pneumatics and original switches, and it took me a while to get over it, but, it had to be done in this case. We were very lucky. The new control system mated with the traditional console, especially the manuals, makes playing accuracy much better than before.   I guess that there are E.M. or Aeolian-Skinner organs who have misguidedly had their original consoles replaced, and could benefit from having the = real thing reinstated, but I long ago quit worrying about the "what ifs," and just enjoy the instrument I play.   Randy Terry   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] Nathan Smith Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 5:09 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Console Identity Crisis   I agree that playing a Skinner console is more enjoyable than a supply house one. However, the inner workings of a nuked console don't do anything for me though... There's nothing like peeling off the side panel of a Skinner console and seeing a nice jamb unit, made of maple, with cherry traces. Even the smell is nice! (C:   - Nate          
(back) Subject: Quantum (was: Carlo Curley) From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 04:35:26 +0800   .... or do we go with   Quantum: 1. A quantity or amount. ("Thousands of models in hundreds of showrooms = across the country ready for delivery to your church or residence!") 2. A specified portion. ("A heaping spoonful of Fl=FBte =E0 Chemin=E9e a= nd 5 1/3 cups of Gross Nazard blended into a Mixture, sip through a reed.") 4. Something that can be counted or measured. ("Four manuals times 61 ke= ys plus a pedal board of 32 keys and just look at all those drawknobs!")=20       ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> <snip>   > And anyway; doesn't the word 'Quantum' mean > ................... "The smallest amount of a physical quantity=20 > that can exist independently or that can be counted or measured ?" >=20 > Hardly the most generous of descriptions to give a product that is=20 > supposed to demonstrate four essential and distinct differences=20 > .... I would have thought, .............. in my humble opinion. -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: Big ChicAGO party tonight at 4th Pres From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:37:29 -0700 (PDT)   I'll be there, probably talking to my teacher, Thomas Gouwens, and trying = to see if Beau or Greg are there. Bob Lind, you comin?   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Richard Haffer, R.I.P. [x-posted] From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:29:04 -0700   I just got the very sad news that my dear old friend Richard Haffer of Severna Park, Maryland died today. He had been very ill for quite some time and went into the hospital; then they brought him home last week where he died this morning.   Richard was an organ enthusiast, mainly theatre organ but he did also like church organs and music. He worked for many years "on the side" as an organ tuner and mechanic in the Baltimore area, along with his full-time work with the Chessie System railroad.   Richard was in many ways a mentor to me when I was first becoming interested in the organ at 15 years of age, back in the early 1970s. He took me under his wing and was always very kind to me --- and his home was a safe and calm haven during a time in my life when things were otherwise usually very troubled and tumultuous.   I have many, many happy memories of my younger years spent at "Camp Ruckamuck" with Richard and Dick Smith, his housemate at the time, and the various and assorted cast of characters who were constantly in and out of the place.   Richard's door was ALWAYS open to friends --- and many people did stop in at all times of the day or night. If he was asleep, he'd either get up to join the party or just bellow a cranky but good-natured "@#$% all of ya!" from his bedroom and the party would go on without him.   When I moved to California in 1980 we did stay in touch but not frequently enough, of course. The last time I talked to him was around my birthday this past March 27. He gave no indication that he was in such bad shape but I have a feeling he must have known.   Oh dear. I could just go on and on and on with the recollections about King Richard, but that will only make me grow sadder. But I did want to let people know, because I know there are folks here on these lists who also knew him.   Would someone who is on the Theatre Organ lists please forward this. Thanks.   Charlie Lester      
(back) Subject: Saint-Saens Oratorio de Noel (cross-pollinated) From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:35:23 EDT   Can any members of either of these lists recommend a fine recording = (if one exists) of the Camille Saint-Saens Oratorio de Noel, opus 12? I've heard snippets, and found them enjoyably listenable, if not heavyweight, and would actually like to hear the work in its entirety via = a good recording. (No, I'm not going to listen to it while setting the Seder = table, so it's not an immediate thing, but any recommendations would be = appreciated).   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Most Progressive Denomination From: <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:59:17 -0500 (CDT)   >I do not understand what this discussion has to do with pipe organs, but may I suggest that if anyone is interested, they might ask one of us, rather than letting these rather dogmatic pronouncements stand as fact. Roy Redman   I originally wrote: "Other than the Unitarian-Universalists, every > denomination has > its faction of conservatives and liberals." > > Emily replied: A small point. I can't speak about every denomination, = but > UUs > are one of > the ones I'm familiar with and they certainly shouldn't be named as an > exception. There is wide variation among their churches in terms of = their > relative alignment--or lack thereof--with traditional Christian roots. > > > I didn't really express myself clearly. Even the most traditional UU's = are > not "conservative" in terms of mainline Protestant denominations. They > would > still fall as being pretty liberal in their thinking, even the UU's who > hold to > the Christian side of their doctrines. > > > Monty Bennett > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Most Progressive Denomination From: <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:59:17 -0500 (CDT)   >I do not understand what this discussion has to do with pipe organs, but may I suggest that if anyone is interested, they might ask one of us, rather than letting these rather dogmatic pronouncements stand as fact. Roy Redman   I originally wrote: "Other than the Unitarian-Universalists, every > denomination has > its faction of conservatives and liberals." > > Emily replied: A small point. I can't speak about every denomination, = but > UUs > are one of > the ones I'm familiar with and they certainly shouldn't be named as an > exception. There is wide variation among their churches in terms of = their > relative alignment--or lack thereof--with traditional Christian roots. > > > I didn't really express myself clearly. Even the most traditional UU's = are > not "conservative" in terms of mainline Protestant denominations. They > would > still fall as being pretty liberal in their thinking, even the UU's who > hold to > the Christian side of their doctrines. > > > Monty Bennett > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >    
(back) Subject: Any known Cole's?!? (x-posted) From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:34:21 -0400   Hello all, I'm trying to gauge the rarity of this organ, so it is imperative that I=20 reach the largest audience possible. Does anyone know roughly how many Cole= =20 organs there are in existence? Just Cole, not C&W, which I postulate to be = a=20 bit more common. I can find no mention of any Cole organs on the web, so I= =20 turn to my best information sources to go where I cannot. Perhaps those of= =20 you who hold rank in the OHS can help out here? Thanks, as always NFR --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: Re: Woodstock Pipe Organ Co. From: "nelson denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:58:51 -0400   A quickie history. Sorry it's full of mistakes but I'm sleepy tonight. = :-))   The Karn family were Loyalists who came to Canada after the Revolution. Dennis Webber Karn 1843-1916 3x mayor of Woodstock started building reed organs in the late 1860's. After a few years he branched out into the = piano business. About 1897 he bought out the S. R. Warren Organ Company in = Toronto and had Warren's sons come and work for him. The D. W. Karn Organ Company =   then built hundreds of pipe organs, tens of thousands of pianos and reed organs under the Karn, Karn-Warren and Warren names with 160 employees. By =   1900 Karn was building a better instrument by far than Casavant - superbe =   workmanship and action. But by 1914 things were beginning to slide. After Dennis's retirement and the outbreak of WW1. and with almost all of the = male workers off to war the "Unions" tried to take over and the whole company fell apart. The Morris Piano Company bought up the piano rights and continued to make Karn Pianos. The reed organ section slowly died out as pianos became more popular and both took a nosedive when radio hit.   About 1919 firm then split into three sections, The Warren Organ Company =   ( building mostly theatre organs) The Woodstock Pipe Organ Builders ( = mostly church organs) and J.A. Webb (organ pipework) All three companiues used = the same men and worked out of the same buildings.   Bill Potter and J Webb, Warren's sons Stanley Bennetto,? Kitt, and several =   others were the big men in the companies. Warren's boys organs were not = as well made as Woodstocks and both companies merged back into one in the = late 1920's. as the Woodstock Pipe Organ Company. The company changed owners = and titles somewhat over the years ( Lots of union problems) and by 1949 the writitng was on the wall. or more acttually oin the pipes themselves.One = of Bill Potter's very last organs was installed in First Presbyterian Port Colburne Ontario. He inscribed his name and age "80" years on the pipes. =   Sadly the organ was built from left over scraps and brick- a -brac. The same great quality of workmanship but full of old notty wood and battered = up old pipework. A sad end to a very fine company Union squabbles , 2 World Wars, The Great Depression, Talkies, Radio and = a lack of young men, good materials and money did them all in, as well as = all the other 200+ organ and piano companies of Canada .   The company folded up about 1949 and soon after and the employees set out = on thier own. The main off shoots were   Keates Organ Company Malton and Webb Pat? Holmes Mel Willits and several other small firms.   Keates became the largest of the off shoot firms and Mel Willits still putters about organs I'm told. My grandfather and father were the local (Niagara) representatives for Karn/Warren/Woodstock for many years. We still service many of the old Karns, Warrens and Woodstocks .in the area.   Karn's pianos and organs were extemely well made in the early years. The only fault with the pipe organs were the tubular pneumatic actions which require a very constant level of humidity. Karn's massive use of solid = wood 2" plus thick makes the organs rather cranky in dryweather. J.T. Austin = is credited with designing the "Communal Windchest" which were the heart of Karn's organs. a simple and robust action that uses Roosevelt style wedge =   valves and either a pitman action or a "pneumtic swinging arm" action = which looks like a giant Roosevelt wedge valve 12' long! that swung back and forth to wedge the pipe valves in the off position.   Warren's later chestwork used a "clip in" wooden valve action that looks = and works just like the cast metal Reisner DVA valves. It came in a pitman version as well as a electro-pneumatic unit valve. Woodstock used a simple ventil and/or pitman action with pouchboards or = a magnet/pouchboard system for their unit ranks.   Of the Karn / Warren organs that survive most are still working on their original leathers!!   Nelson Denton R. A. Denton & Son   My pedigree (sort of) Richard Denton - Cabinetmaker (Mirfield England) 1820's-? Armitage Denton - Musician/Cabinetmaker/Boatbuilder/Aircraft maker ( Mirfield Eng>Muskoka Ont>Hamilton Ont) 1850's-1920. George Spencer - Lumber and shipbuilding (Portsea Eng) 1820's> Spencer Bros - Lumber, Furniture and Reed Organs (Owen Sound = Ont.)~1863-1870 Walter Spencer Organbuilder( Hamilton Ontario)1871-1910 Hamilton Church Organ Works(Hamilton Ont)1910-1920's R. A. Denton - Organ Builder(Hamilton Ont)1920's- ~1936 R. A. Denton & Son (Hamilton Ont)~1936-present   The Dentons worked closely with Walter Spencer from about 1890 onwards taking over the company in 1910.              
(back) Subject: Re: Messiaen's L'Ascension From: "John Seboldt" <rohrwerk@seboldt.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:24:54 -0500   Stan Yoder wrote: > Regarding part IV, the title, translated, is "Prayer from Christ > ascending towards His Father," with a quote from St. John's gospel. That =   > quote is from chapter 17, the so-called 'high-priestly prayer,' which > occurs before the Passion (let alone the Resurrection and Ascension.) > The title, therefore, requires a chronological stretch. Or should it be > put down to 'composer's license?' > > Anyone else ever noticed this?   Well, there are always lots of "chronological stretches" in the use of Scripture in church. Notice how, in the three-year lectionary, in the Easter season, we contrast readings from the Book of Acts (the church in action) with various post-Resurrection narratives? Plenty of chronological stretches even in our calendar (ever notice that the Feast of the Annunciation coincided with Good Friday this year?). Selections from this Johannine "high priestly prayer" are used in the Sundays of Easter as well in the Roman lectionary, around the time of the Ascension feast.   Then we add Messiaen's religious perspective, which is often more personal piety and mysticism than true theological reflection, and yes, composer's license probably comes into play as well. But in this case, he's not as far off as you think.   John Seboldt Milwaukee, WI http://www.seboldt.net/annunciation http://65.31.162.44/choralevensong/