PipeChat Digest #5293 - Wednesday, April 27, 2005
 
Re: How much would it cost?
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
Re: SRO Dallas
  by <texstan@earthlink.net>
Re: How much would it cost?
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Re: How much would it cost?
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
Re:How much would it cost
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: How much would it cost?
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
RE: How much would it cost?
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@comcast.net>
Re: How much would it cost?
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
Re: Virgil Fox
  by <AGODRDANB@aol.com>
Re: Virgil Fox
  by "GB" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Pipedreams Live
  by <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: How much would it cost?
  by "Brad Richards" <richards_brad@hotmail.com>
Re: Virgil Fox & friends
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: How much would it cost? From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:26:41 -0400   Hi Shirley,=20 I'll step in before someone who knows what they're talking about does. A 14r 3m organ? Thats some heavy unification going on here. . . Using the [standard] figure of 15,000/rank plus10,000 for the console, we find the price to be: $220,000, not including labour, etc. Builders: Seb Gluck, who is a member here, does some phenomenal work. So does Fratelli Ruffati of Italy, as well as Schantz. Wicks does good consoles, but I wouldnt entrust the organ building to them. If you want digital, Walker Ind. and a Wicks console is a phenomenal mix, IMHO. Austin did great work too, but they are questionable as to their status of the moment. I hope you make a good choice! And when you do that, get Ken Cowan, Tom Murray, John Weaver, Frederick Hohman to come play your dedicatory recital!   Nick Russotto   On 4/26/05, Shirley <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> wrote: > Hi, folks - >=20 > How much would a *new* pipe organ, 14 ranks, 3-manual console w/ combinat= ion > action, and AGO pedalboard cost? (The chambers already exist, so no new > construction.) Who are some of your favorite organ builders today? >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > --Shirley >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20 >=20     --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: Re: SRO Dallas From: <texstan@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:34:59 -0700 (PDT)   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: How much would it cost? From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:37:33 -0400       Listers:   My 2 cents worth:   Let's not go down this road again.   The last time, it turned into a flame* war. It was not comfortable.     Jim     * Flamers insisted that they were not flaming. Nonetheless it was very easy to infer it as such.  
(back) Subject: Re: How much would it cost? From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:43:15 -0400   Sorry, I must have a short memory.   My apologies if my innocent, specific question inflamed anyone.   --Shirley   On 26 Apr 2005 at 15:37, Jim McFarland expounded:   > > > Listers: > > My 2 cents worth: > > Let's not go down this road again. > > The last time, it turned into a flame* war. It was not comfortable. > > > Jim > > > * Flamers insisted that they were not flaming. Nonetheless it was very > easy to infer it as such.      
(back) Subject: Re:How much would it cost From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:09:54 EDT   That is such a hard question to answer...there are many variables to consider. My first question would be for 14 ranks would you really want = to stretch it over 3 manuals rather than 2, or will the third manual just be a = preparation for more stops to be added later?   Depending on the type of chests used there can be some cost difference, depending on the quality of builder the costs can range drastically, BUT = the quality of instrument you get will vary.   I recently played a relatively new organ by a major builder and it was a = move in the right direction, but they still have a way to go in the quality of construction, voicing, to compete with some of the other builders out = there. It was average at best. On the console, you can see glue at the wood joints, = the stain isn't the same color on the pedal board frame as it is on the rest = of the organ and it's still different on the bench. The PVC windlines = snaking their way through the chamber add a Home Depot touch to the = organ--ordinarily that wouldn't bother me, but since this company is really trying to = upgrade it's image, at least encasing the PVC in a wooden frame to hide it would have = made it just look a little better. Voicing was very uneven--most ranks were prevoiced and the company only spent a day and a half voicing the organ in = the church. This company has been on the lower end of average for prices.   On the other end of the spectrum, companies that charge higher prices give =   you a lot more for your money...you get all sorts of details in the = console like inlaid wood music desks and porcelain draw knobs. In the chamber you'll = see details such as furniture grade cabinetry on the windchests, swell shades = that are felted between each shade and on the top and bottom so no sound = escapes when they are closed, windtrunks that may be made out of wood and are = varnished on the inside, pipes that are voiced on site for weeks not just a day or = two, etc.   The difference is like buying a Chevy or buying a Rolls Royce or something = in between. You get what you pay for. Sometimes there are builders who can give you better quality at a good price, sometimes you find a builder who charges = you exorbitent prices and gives you junk, but I think those are the exceptions = to the rule. Having just gone through the process, and now waiting for the new instrument to be delivered, we talked to many builders and were amazed at = the difference in quality and the attitude that builders took, from listening = to our needs and wanting to work with us to telling us what they would build us irregardless of what we wanted or needed, only basing it on the budget.   I say hire a consultant who understands what your church's musical and worship needs/goals are and start getting information from builders. It = doesn't hurt to talk to some builders or go out and play some representative = instruments. It may give you an idea of who you would like to have on your short list = of builders to talk to.   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: How much would it cost? From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:12:03 -0500   The price would depend on the quality of the builder who did the work, and = a high-end builder might well charge 100 percent or more above what a cheap one would charge. So far as which would be best, cheap is usually bad, = and expensive is not always good. The best way to proceed would be to check = out some instruments by a number of builders, decide which builder you think does the best job, and ask them what they could build within the budget available. That might be ten ranks or it might be twenty.   Furthermore, it would be extremely unusual to have a three manual console with an instrument as small as this. Normally one would not go to three manuals until the organ was at least 30 ranks, and possibly not even then. Adding another manual adds quite a bit to the cost and with only fourteen ranks you ought to be spending your money on more pipes, rather than more manuals.   John Speller   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> To: "pipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:04 PM Subject: How much would it cost?     > Hi, folks - > > How much would a *new* pipe organ, 14 ranks, 3-manual console w/ combination > action, and AGO pedalboard cost? (The chambers already exist, so no new > construction.) Who are some of your favorite organ builders today?      
(back) Subject: RE: How much would it cost? From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:34:02 -0500   That really wasn't a specific question. You didn't indicate what sorts of stops, action, tonal style, how much on-site voicing, the instrument's intended use, etc. etc. etc.   I'm not a builder nor do I play one on TV but 14 ranks with minimal duplication is a very modest 2 manual organ - or is this to be a theater organ? All we really know is that no case is required. Are you thinking Fisk, Reuter, or Hammond?   Michael     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Shirley Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:43 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: How much would it cost?   Sorry, I must have a short memory.   My apologies if my innocent, specific question inflamed anyone.   --Shirley   On 26 Apr 2005 at 15:37, Jim McFarland expounded:   > > > Listers: > > My 2 cents worth: > > Let's not go down this road again. > > The last time, it turned into a flame* war. It was not comfortable. > >    
(back) Subject: Re: How much would it cost? From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:35:12 -0500   OH! Of course, Michael, thanks for reminding me. C.B. Fisk is another builder high on my list, if a bit outlandish in some of their designs: They built a blue organ. Didn't I hear Margo Dillard use that line? Even so, nicely done :)   NFR     On 4/26/05, Michael David <michaelandmaggy@comcast.net> wrote: > That really wasn't a specific question. You didn't indicate what sorts o= f > stops, action, tonal style, how much on-site voicing, the instrument's > intended use, etc. etc. etc. >=20 > I'm not a builder nor do I play one on TV but 14 ranks with minimal > duplication is a very modest 2 manual organ - or is this to be a theater > organ? All we really know is that no case is required. Are you thinking > Fisk, Reuter, or Hammond? >=20 > Michael >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of > Shirley > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:43 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: How much would it cost? >=20 > Sorry, I must have a short memory. >=20 > My apologies if my innocent, specific question inflamed anyone. >=20 > --Shirley >=20 > On 26 Apr 2005 at 15:37, Jim McFarland expounded: >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Listers: > >=20 > > My 2 cents worth: > >=20 > > Let's not go down this road again. > >=20 > > The last time, it turned into a flame* war. It was not comfortable. > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20 >=20   --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil Fox From: <AGODRDANB@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:52:35 EDT   I must agree, and say that I too love both EPB and Virgil Fox, = both were GENIUS! One of the greatest moments of my life occurred many many years = ago, when I was a student at Illinois State University, Virgil = Fox Presented a wonderful concert, I was at the time the Dean Of the ISU chapter of the AGO, we had = a reception at my home for Mr. Fox, we didn't really think he'd attend, as his publicist sent a note of regret, but college = days, any excuse for a party, Much to our delight at about 11:00 Mr = Fox arrived cape and all! In the course of the evening someone asked Mr. fox about his style of playing Bach, I still remember his reply. He sid it = didn't bother him in the least that some quarters of the Organ community accused hime of taking "Romantic Liberties" with the = classics, however, It is well know that Bach himself took advantage of = every feature of the organs of his day, and that like Bach he, (Fox) =   took advantage of every element at his disposal on the organs = of today, including the dynamics and voicing of instruments of a size = and power unknown in Bach's day. Dr. Dan  
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil Fox From: "GB" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:36:05 -0500   Hi Dan, I was at that concert too but wasn't invited to the party. lol = I would appreciate it if you would e-mail me back privately. Thanks, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: AGODRDANB@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Virgil Fox     I must agree, and say that I too love both EPB and Virgil Fox, both were GENIUS!   One of the greatest moments of my life occurred many many years ago, when I was a student at Illinois State University, Virgil Fox Presented a wonderful concert, I was at the time the Dean Of the ISU chapter of the AGO, we had a reception at my home for Mr. Fox, we didn't really think he'd attend, as his publicist sent a note of regret, but college = days, any excuse for a party, Much to our delight at about 11:00 Mr Fox arrived cape and all! In the course of the evening someone asked Mr. fox about his style of playing Bach, I still remember his reply. He sid it didn't bother him in the least that some quarters of the Organ community accused hime of taking "Romantic Liberties" with the classics, however, It is well know that Bach himself took = advantage of every feature of the organs of his day, and that like Bach = he, (Fox) took advantage of every element at his disposal on the organs of today, including the dynamics and voicing of instruments = of a size and power unknown in Bach's day. Dr. Dan    
(back) Subject: Pipedreams Live From: <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:14:29 -0500 (CDT)   The event was an organ concert with a different format called Pipedreams Live. It featured Michael Barone, and six local organists, and was hosted by the Dallas and Fort Worth chapters of the AGO, the Dallas Symphony, and WRR 101.1 FM. The concert began with Bradley Hunter Welch playing the Wagner, Grand March from Tannhauser, and the Bach Toccata in = F. Then it moved to George Baker playing improvisations on Texas Tunes, showing the various stops of the organ and narrated by Barone; and Baker's own Wild West Toccata. Mary Preston closed the first half of the concert with the Reger Chorale-Fantasy, "Hallelujah, Gott zu Loben" Opus 52 no. 3.   After the intermission Damin Spritzer treated us to music of other Dallas composers;The Last Trumpet, from Tuba Suite, by Joel Martinson, and Passacaglia, by Gerald Near. James Diaz then presented the Prelude from Organ Symphony No. 2 Opus 26, by Dupre. His wife, Hyeon Jeong, played the Fuga sopra un soggetto (Pink Panther) by Guy Bovet; Shimmy, by William Albright; and Electa ut sol, by Henri Dallier 1849-1934. The latter piece was apparently promoted by Barone, according to his remarks, and was certainly a stunner! The final was the Stars and Stripes Forever, played by James Diaz and Hyeon Jeong.   Michael Barone provided an engaging dialogue about the music and interviewed each performer after they played. It was a wonderful program overall! We are very fortunate to have a number of outstanding organists in our area. The amazing thing was the attendance!! It think it was very clever to involve these popular organists from some of our more prominent churches. They each came with their own contingent of supporters and fans to hear their favorites play on an outstanding organ. There was a full house, and we were told that about 500 were actually turned away.   We were all invited to bring photographs of our organs, and local organ builders provided displays of their work. All in all, an extremely succesfull evening for the pipe organ and its music! Roy Redman  
(back) Subject: Re: How much would it cost? From: "Brad Richards" <richards_brad@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 03:13:51 +0000   This question cannot be answered by anyone on the list, unless they know a lot more information than what you have given.   Size of building? Type of services and/or use of organ? Size of organ chambers? Tracker organ or electric action? New or used pipes? New or used console? Is a decorative facade required, or is the organ invisible to the eye? Are the organ chambers at ground level or on a third floor level? A lot = more work is involved installing an organ not on ground level. Are the chambers adequately reinforced for sound? Is the building itself reverberant or dead? how will this mesh with the = type of program material required? There is not a one size fits all price for an organ of a given size. = Unlike the electronic organ business, real pipe organs are all unique. You would =   not even be able to go to the list of APOBA members and get them to agree = on a price for the amount of information you have provided. Although my firm =   is not a member of APOBA, I would say that is a good place to start = looking for pricing. I will not recommend any ONE builder... they are all unique, =   just as their organs are. Depending on where you are geographically, you may have the luxury of having other reputable builders near you. Ask = others who have pipe organs which you consider to be of good quality.... Who = built your pipe organ? How long ago? Are you happy with it? etc.   Above all, I know there is this myth of 10,000 per rank... sometimes = higher. If you go with used pipework, I can tell you the cost will be much lower, and you might not be compromising in sound quality depending on all =   the other factors.   Good Luck,   Brad R. Richards Frels Pipe Organs      
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil Fox & friends From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:56:11 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   I hate celebrity TV, I hate celebrity status and I think I hate celebrities!   If I go to hear Carlo Curley, it isn't because he's amusing (which he is) or because he is larger than life (which he also is), it is because he can play wickedly difficult pieces rather well, where others cannot.   I still marvel at the dexterity of Virgil Fox in such performances as the Perpetuem Mobile by Middelshulte, or the the Bossi "Giga."   E.Power Briggs was a very fine, scholarly performer, who stands the test of time. I still listen to some vinyl LP's from the 60's of his, and thoroughly enjoy them.   Generally speaking, I do not wish to watch a celebrity especially, or even wish to be entertained. If I AM, then that is a bonus, but I would always judge a recital on musical intergity first.   The simple fact is, most performers (even pianists and violinists) are highly specialised. Thus, I can be drawn to a David Briggs concert solely for the pleasure of hearing one of his outstanding improvisations. I would often travel distance to hear Jane Parker-Smith perform almost anything from the French Romantic repertoire. Some of the better Dutch organists enthrall me with their superlative Bach playing. Then there was Germani's dreadfully mechanical Bach......and his white-hot brilliance with Reger...an extraordinary contrast if ever there was one.   I have travelled a long way to hear Michel Chapuis and Jiri Ropek, and will always remember Flor Peeters playing his own music in the flesh.   Hear Ton Koopman on a good day, and you leave walking on a cloud. Catch him on a bad or wild day, and you walk away surrounded by one.   In my experience, very, very few "eclectic" performers deliver the total musical experience; though Dr. Francis Jackson (York Minster) and Dr Roy Massey (Hereford Cathedral) usually did in their heydays, and David Briggs is in the same mould.   By all means go to be entertained or thrilled, but that is a specilisation in its own rights, and not one which is not necessarily associated with absolute musicianship or state-of-the-art interpretation.   Please don't think that I am knocking Virgil Fox or even Carlo Curley....I am not. I am simply stating that they were/are great "entertainers"...great "showmen," great virtuosi and powerful "communicators."   That is a very worthy niche to inhabit, but we should always leave space for outright musicianship and interpretation, such as can be heard on "Organs & Organists on-line" from 14 year old (now 15) Jared Grenz playing a slow Bach Chorale Prelude absolutely perfectly.   I suppose it's the difference between Atheltics and Circus.....which is the more worthy?   The pure artistic spectacle of Cirque de Soliel or the pure science of Olympic competition?   Both surely have a unique place in our affections, but let's not get them mixed up.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK             __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com