PipeChat Digest #5297 - Wednesday, April 27, 2005
 
Re: Company Bashing-thoughts on WIcks
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
Wicks (non-admin, all read, please)
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
RE: Wicks (non-admin, all read, please)
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Company Bashing-thoughts on WIcks
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Personal taste, indeed (was How much would it cost?)
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
kleuker orgelbau?
  by <Seedlac@aol.com>
The NEW Wicks
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: The NEW Wicks
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
NEW Wicks
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: NEW Wicks
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
Re:Nicks case against Wicks
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Nicks case against Wicks
  by <AGODRDANB@aol.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #5296 - 04/27/05
  by <Adampkoch@aol.com>
Re: Wicks (non-admin, all read, please)
  by <AGODRDANB@aol.com>
Tremulants, yet another can of worms :)
  by "HammondH100" <h100series@pacbell.net>
WICKS ORGANS
  by <Voicer40@aol.com>
What makes a pipe organ "bad"
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: kleuker orgelbau?
  by "Mark Nelson" <mark.edward.nelson@gmail.com>
RE: What makes a pipe organ "bad"
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Company Bashing-thoughts on WIcks From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:23:08 -0400   Thats a neat-sounding stop. Wish I had one of those! NFR   On 4/27/05, Gfc234@aol.com <Gfc234@aol.com> wrote:=20 >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 4/27/05 5:06:19 PM, TheShieling@xtra.co.nz writes: >=20 >=20 > >kalamzoo wicks >=20 > I looked this up and am most impressed with the new stopname "Subterranea= n > Tuba"!!! Is it stuffed into the crypt, something like the orchestra at > Bayreuth? Laughing myself silly at the idea, I will make no comment=20 > though, > as I haven't heard it. >=20 > Ross >=20 >=20 >=20 > The subterranean tuba is on 20 inches (i think) and is in an echo=20 > division-UNDER the floor-a the back of the church-a good 300 feet away fr= om=20 > the chancel. It is powerful-but not overpowering-it serves as a solo or= =20 > chorus reed-and makes a wonderful dialogue stop with the tuba that is in = the=20 > chancel organ. > gfc >=20 >=20 > *Gregory F. Ceurvorst* > 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS > Evanston, IL 60201 > 847.332.2788 home/fax > 708.243.2549 mobile > gfc234@aol.com > gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net <http://gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net/> >=20 >=20     --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: Wicks (non-admin, all read, please) From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:35:16 -0400   Hello, All Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my judgement of Wicks. I'm sure even such=20 prestigious builders as Skinner and Austin have horror stories that may be= =20 shared about them, too. I actually just remembered that they made those nea= t=20 little unit organs back in the '30's (The Fuga?) and those were quite an=20 interesting venture, although I would prefer a Roller Moller. You may be=20 right about blanket statements, and after listening to an mp3 of a new Wick= s=20 sent to me off list by a member, I can say that they've improved sice the= =20 last recording I've listened to. I also have the funniest feeling that the= =20 recording that is out on the web was recorded on a hot day, making the=20 instrument a bit out'o'tune. Soooo, I do apologise if I've come across a bi= t=20 harshly in my judgement of Wicks, although I can't say that many of the=20 comments I got were very nice, perhaps I deserved a few of them. "The world= =20 is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion" So, why dont we= =20 get out of this rut and continue in a more Positiv light? This is a Swell= =20 Liszt, and I'm quite happy to be on it. If you found that last sentence odd= ,=20 you aren't a member of the Allen Organ Owners list. It's another Great one!= =20 But we get Bombarded by these weird puns all the time. . . In conclusion. .= =20 .. well, you know. and Malcom, I may take you up on that offer sooner or=20 later. NFR --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: RE: Wicks (non-admin, all read, please) From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:55:45 +1200   >more Positiv light? This is a Swell Liszt, and I'm quite happy to be on = it. If you found that last sentence odd, you aren't a member of the Allen = Organ Owners list. It's another Great one! But we get Bombarded by these weird puns all the time. . .   If it's puns you want: we can dream up our own, without the need for you = to Pedal yours to us. It'd take a Choir of paper to list all the dozy puns around. Not wanting to a Blower of my own Trumpet, being merely a Hoboe, I've thought of a few myself but usually don't broadcast them. Some people think Puns are Mutations, some think them, others think of them as a Mutation. Yet others think they are merely part of the Mixture. Some of us get a Direct Electric charge from the, others think they are merely Pneumatic, i.e. hot air.   Yours Mechanically but little Organised, Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Company Bashing-thoughts on WIcks From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:04:41 -0700 (PDT)   Considering the Greg has given such a rave review of this organ, Im pretty = certain that Wicks is doing very well.   Bill Hamer has only been with Wicks a little over 2 years, or no? Give = things time to marinate, people. It seems like Wicks may is taking pride = is yesteryear and redeeming its name. As a matter of fact, I think I = recall seeing an ad of Wicks talking about how some wicks have noisy = action and they are well aware of its nerve-racking abilities.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Personal taste, indeed (was How much would it cost?) From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:16:46 -0500   Very interesting. I played a bad 1920 Austin for many years (St. James = Cathedral, Chicago, where I studied with and succeeded Leo Sowerby) and = played a rather good 1980s Austin several times at St. Simon's, = Arlington Heights, IL.   Robert Lind ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Scott A Montgomery=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 7:40 AM Subject: Re: How much would it cost?     <snip> I have heard fantastic Austins from the 20s and horrible one from the = 80s <snip> It's all a matter of personal taste  
(back) Subject: kleuker orgelbau? From: <Seedlac@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:26:17 EDT   Does anyone know if Kleuker is still in business? I did a google search = and found many references, but no web site.   I am in the midst of a schwimmer rebuild on a Kleuker and thought I would =   pose a few questions to them if they were still going.   Steve Baltimore  
(back) Subject: The NEW Wicks From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:32:54 -0700 (PDT)   Greg just sent me an Mp3 of the New Wicks. It took 5 seconds to see that they are in some FINE hands with Bill Hamer   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: The NEW Wicks From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:37:51 -0400   Greg, make a believer out of me. Hit me with that mp3 nfr   On 4/27/05, Desiree' <nicemusica@yahoo.com> wrote:=20 >=20 > Greg just sent me an Mp3 of the New Wicks.=20 > It took 5 seconds to see that they are in some FINE hands with Bill Hamer >=20 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 > http://mail.yahoo.com=20 >=20       --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: NEW Wicks From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:44:07 -0700 (PDT)   A colleague from the list looked at Wicks for his organ project, and they = could only present a particular installation from the South off as their = magnum opus. NOW that the Kalamazoo organ is up and playing, THIS is what = will get people saying "WOW...just like back then!" and use this as their = magnum opus. (Magnum not for size, but for quality) Im wondering how the Waxahatchie organ is doin?   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: NEW Wicks From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:48:49 -0400   >=20 > Im wondering how the Waxahatchie organ is doin? >=20 God bless you         --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: Re:Nicks case against Wicks From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:59:04 EDT   Nick, where was this disaster you heard? Even my cruddy Austin does not make me =   dislike em all............:-) anyway, would love to hear--off list?---where and when. have not seen = anyone this unhappy about non-digital organ for a LONG time. dale in Florida  
(back) Subject: Re: Nicks case against Wicks From: <AGODRDANB@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:17:28 EDT   It seems that I tend to agree with most, in that, every = builder may have a less than perfect install out there. I have been a = liturgical organist for over forty years, and have found that = often a "bad Instrument" is the result of local service techs who = are inept, or have tonal ideas which may vary greatly from the builders intent. I live in Sedalia, Mo. and we are very fortunate to have a = dozen or so churches that have installed pipe organs. I know of three suberb Wicks instruments in town, I have played them all and think they = are fine. Every one of course has their favorites, and it is often a = matter of taste. We are not that far from the Wicks factory in Highland, so the =   instuments in town can get service direct from Wicks, we are = also close to Rueter, and the best kept secret in the Pipe organ world, my all time favorite builder,. =   which is Quimby over in Warrensburg! I am also of the old school, and perhaps outdated attitude, = that I would prefer a crummy Pipe organ over a great electronic any day. (I know the new Allen and Rodgers and Saville conversions are pretty good, but they aren't Pipe Organs.) Best regards to all! Dr. Dan  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5296 - 04/27/05 From: <Adampkoch@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:18:15 EDT   Hello All, I joined this group to be able to learn from other organists. I think varied opinions are wonderful. Hearing each others likes, dislikes (which = can be backed) up are wonderful tools to all of us. Hearing organists = continually bash one another is mere childs play. I'm almost sad to be a part of = such a group. We all know the 'state' the organ is in these days... Shouldn't = we join together to promote our instrument, learn from one another, and be a = family rather than subject one another to continued negativity? Just my humble thoughts.... Have a nice day! Adam K.  
(back) Subject: Re: Wicks (non-admin, all read, please) From: <AGODRDANB@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:24:10 EDT   Thank you Ross!! I needed that! Dr.Dan  
(back) Subject: Tremulants, yet another can of worms :) From: "HammondH100" <h100series@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:30:43 -0700   How do you like your tremulants to sound:   That which represents (as coined by my associate) a "blue haired methodist =   choir"   or   Tremulant settings which are modeled after a young female singer?   Have at!   Donald R. Resor Jr. T. W. & T. C. Svc. Co. http://go.to/tonewheels Carillon Web Ring http://g.webring.com/hub?ring=3Dthecarillonwebri Organ Builders and Dealers Web Ring http://u.webring.com/hub?ring=3Dorganbuildersand "That was so terrible, I think you gave me cancer!" LOL      
(back) Subject: WICKS ORGANS From: <Voicer40@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:47:32 EDT   We have all read quite a few opinions, a few of which were written by = people who actually knew what they were actually saying.   Now, I would like to give you some FACTS.   In the 1970s, the Wicks Organ Company commissioned me to install about a dozen organs for them. During the installation, I often stood back and = admired the flawless materials used by Wicks in the construction. The lumber they = used, and supplied me with which to make braces, was the finest lumber I have = ever seen in any organ. Their casework was absolutely stunning, both in construction and in final appearance. There was not a hint of a knot = anywhere.   One organ which was dedicated in 1974 has never had a bottomboard removed. = The pastor, who was at the church at the time of the installation (and = still is) told me that no other technician has ever touched the organ. This = organ has given practically no trouble at all, and even though it is installed on = two levels, stays incredibly in tune.   The direct electric action has been said to have bouncing magnets. There = was a time that this was true. The organists complained about this, and the Wicks company knew that they had a problem. They had their engineering = department get on this matter and solved the problem by installing a diode on each magnet which allowed the large electrical buildup in the magnet coil to go = smoothly back into the positive rather than shock the magnet by having no place to = go. At the same time, the burned contacts caused by the note being played = were solved by the diode eliminating the arcing at the contact. Thus, Wicks = killed two birds with one stone. From a voicer's point of view, I find nothing objectionable about the Direct Electric action. It has a good attack, and = a soft, bounceless release.   Tonally, I decline to comment. If I were to issue an opinion, a number of =   fine organists would agree, and a number of fine organists would disagree, = and we would have a raging contraversy (or thread) which would, as Shakespeare =   wrote, "be full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." I will say = simply, that neither the Wicks Organ Company, nor any other organ builder will ever = build an organ that pleases everyone. No matter what they do, someone is going to find something wrong with it. In fact, I know a few organists who could = find something wrong with the way God handled the creation.   Today we have a problem. The vast majority of churches have = guitar-twanging hootnannies in lieu of fine music programs, and have no use for organs. = Many churches which have organs are selling them. There are fewer organ majors = in colleges, and retiring organ teachers are not being replaced, My own alma =   mater has completely eliminated the organ department and has sold the = practice instruments. The organ program I knew is now only a memory. Furthermore, = the prices of organs has gone through the ceiling. When I was an organ = student in the early 1960s, $100,000 would buy a huge 4-manual organ, Now you = couldn't replace the console on one of those organs for $100,000.   We need to get behind our organ builders and support them and stop this rumor-spreading nonsense. The laity in the churches sometimes listen to = these "experts" and think they actually know what they are talking about. = Baseless rumors can hurt the builders. Let's be careful!!!   D. Keith Morgan    
(back) Subject: What makes a pipe organ "bad" From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:54:14 EDT   Everybody to their corners... There are two problems with this discussion. First of all, there is = the lack of specifics. Secondly, there may be a lack of experiece. Let me see = if I can adequately explain what I mean, so that the issues are not further confused, and another War of the Rohrgedeckts is not fought. Let us start with specifics. "I hate all organs by Spleen and Company. =   I've heard three that I hate, and would not recommend than anybody have a Spleen." This is what, in university, we used to call a GSG, a gross = sweeping generalization. What about the instruments was so bad, and were these bad characteristics common to them all? Here are some hypothetical examples of = what I mean by specifics; the comments could apply to any builder, and I had none in = mind when I conjured these: "The principal choruses just do not weld together in their instruments =   (in the ones that actually have such choruses). Anything above 4' pitch is =   scaled very narrowly and the components of the chorus split apart into = shrieking parallel bands of harsh, gritty tone, rather than the blended yet bright = warmth I have admired in many other organs." "Without fail, they place the only mutations on the same manual as the =   Krummhorn or Clarinet, which means I cannot play some of my favorite = music. On the one instrument of their's that did have the stops in the proper arrangement, the mutations weren't full compass, and the 2' component was = a principal, not a flute, so no cornet was possible." "The reed tone consists mostly of mechanical noise. The reed stops are =   vulgar, brash, and uneven note-to-note, and our curator cannot keep them = in tune under the best of circumstances. He tells me that the resonators were cut = too short, a characteristic of the imported reeds common during the period the =   organ was built." THOSE are specifics. Those are valid observations to which others can relate. Lack of experience is more difficult to discuss and understand. = Chocolate layer cake at the town diner tastes great compared Ring-Dings bought at a = p etrol station convenience store. Having that cake every weekend after = church or synagogue is a treat, and has elevated your standards and expectations regarding chocolate cake -- until you've had the house torte at the Hotel = Sacher in Vienna. Suddenly, a new world of chocolate exquisiteness has opened up to = you. It is possible to hear quite a range of instruments and be able to discern qualitative differences and judge accordingly. But take into = account the "universe" of those organs, where they fall within the grand Venn diagram = of all organs. The best organ in Wazassasoussa County is no doubt the best organ = in the county, but one may find one's breath taken away by an instrument in = the adjacent county, or the adjacent country. As our horizons expand, so do = our judgements. That having been said, we might also return to something we thought we =   "hated" (a strong word), and find some appropriateness, validity, or = beauty in it that we did not see before. Unfortunately, I can safely say that in my experience, I can think of = two companies that have not come up with an organ that I have liked. I have played one acceptable, passable organ by one of them, but I did not LIKE = it, and it was not a GOOD organ, it was just the only one of about eight I had heard = and inspected that I could bear. Both firms have an unshakable core of sycophants; one builds mechanical action organs, the other assisted = actions. The fact that both are doing well in the business means that enough people DO like = these instruments that my opinion doesn't really matter -- at least to them and their satisfied clients. It might be a safe bet that neither of these = firms would care for my style of tonal structure, scaling, voicing, and tonal = finishing. They might hate what I do, they might find it enlightening. I would hope = for the latter, but I'm not going to count on it. In the end, the only way to learn is to make criticism constructive, = if we are going to level criticism at all. Of course, the company that got = bashed the most in this exchange has benefited from a great many people coming to =   their defense and pointing the nay-sayers toward what they feel are fine instruments.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/    
(back) Subject: Re: kleuker orgelbau? From: "Mark Nelson" <mark.edward.nelson@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:17:44 -0400   They are not listed in the ISO members pages: http://www.internationalorganbuilders.com/nav/index.html Mark Nelson   On 4/27/05, Seedlac@aol.com <Seedlac@aol.com> wrote:=20 >=20 > Does anyone know if Kleuker is still in business? I did a google search= =20 > and > found many references, but no web site. >=20 > I am in the midst of a schwimmer rebuild on a Kleuker and thought I would > pose a few questions to them if they were still going. >=20 > Steve > Baltimore >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20 >  
(back) Subject: RE: What makes a pipe organ "bad" From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:28:06 +1200   We ourselves change over time as well, in our appreciation and = understanding of things. This seems obvious, but nevertheless makes us surprised when we see it happening in ourselves.   Let me illustrate with a true story In the 1950s St John's Anglican in Dannevirke NZ had installed a 2m Hill tracker from the 1870s. It had about (I don't need to check exactly for this account) 9 stops on the Great, 4 = on the TenC Swell and 1 on the Pedal. In the 1960s it was electrified and greatly enlarged, including extending the Swell to CC, adding several more stops to Great and Pedal, and adding an unenclosed Positive of some 8 = stops. Now, for years I and others regarded that Positive as too loud and = assertive with plain bad voicing, especially the Krummhorn. Why, the Positive = (inside the case, so not visible and not in a Ruck position) was actually louder than the Swell.   Well, I recently played that organ again, the first time in 25 years. I found it quite wonderful with crisp clear stuff on the Positive, including the Krummhorn which I found pretty good when used as a French Cromorne. = The Positive is about 95% the volume of the Great, and Trios between Great and Positive are a treat now, both divisions of course being unenclosed. The Swell flues (up to Mixture) are about 75% of the Great in volume, but the Trumpet unit is good and powerful. So, the Swell is really good for = Romantic music, and yet is a bright cheerful division that, being enclosed, is = great to accompany the Choir in the adjacent chancel stalls and altogether is = less assertive, and thus more useful, on a great many occasions, than either Great or Positive.   You see I had to say to myself: Ross, you were too one-eyed before and = could not hear the musical possibilities.   Thus endeth a 100% true story against myself.   The corollary is also true: as the years pass, we come to see some instruments which we once loved are now not seen as much good at all. The former Hataitai Methodist church in Wellington here used to have a Hele 2m electric-on-slider chests from the 1950s. It had: GREAT 8 OpDiap, 8 Claribel, 8 Dulc, 4 Princ. SWELL 8 Lieb.Ged, 8 Salicional, 8 Celeste, 4 Gems, 8 Oboe. PEDAL 16 Bdn and 8 Bass Fl.(extn). At one time, I thought = this organ was of terrific design as it (so I thought) had good representative stops of all families on both manuals. Why, it even had an 8ft on the = Pedal, better than so many bigger organs that had only a 16ft. The Great was especially good as it had a 4ft Principal instead of a 4ft Flute, and the Swell4 coupler, working through the Sw-to-Gt coupler, brought in the Gemshorn at 2ft, so there was, so I thought, plenty of "top" for "Full Organ". The Swell Oboe went to CC, so was better than many stops, and the flutes were good and varied, one being biggish scale open wood and the = other stopt metal of much narrower scale. Too, with lots and lots of couplers = and electric action, the organ was most versatile.   It wasn't, of course. I now loathe the Heles from the 1950s and 1960s that I've heard. Too, I find the design and voicing appalling for any practical use at all except bludgeoning congregational singing. And all through = this, and into its present location at an Anglican Church down the road, the = organ has remained unchanged. It's me that has changed.   We would do well to be humble enough to admit we can never achieve perfection, in the doings of our hands or our minds and that even we ourselves are not static in undeastanding, outlook or perceptions.   Here endeth a lengthy sermon.   Ross