PipeChat Digest #5304 - Friday, April 29, 2005 Re: new topic by "N. Russotto" <email@example.com> Re: Blue organs by "N. Russotto" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Tough material by "Jim McFarland" <email@example.com> Re: One of Wicks 'wilder' ideas... ;) by <Steskinner@aol.com> Re: tongues of flame(liturgical dancers) by <Steskinner@aol.com> Re: Organs and denominations by <AEolianSkinner@aol.com> Re: When is a pipe organnot a pipe organ-Wurlitzer by "Daniel Hopkins" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ? by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Re: new topic by "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: tongues of flame(liturgical dancers) by "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: tongues of flame(liturgical dancers) by "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <email@example.com> Re: When is a pipe organnot a pipe organ-Pan Flute? by "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <firstname.lastname@example.org> The Pan Flute is not an Organ by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Organs and denominations by "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: Demessieux by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Denominational Organs by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: When is a pipe organnot a pipe organ-Pan Flute? by "robertelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Blue organs by "Mark Nelson" <email@example.com> Re: Denominational Organs by "Desiree'" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: new topic From: "N. Russotto" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 06:58:05 -0400 Hmmm. It seems that their are Hammonds in all the Southern Baptist churches= =20 either on the news or written in books. Is that Baptist taste (or lack=20 thereof) or just a typical stereotype?=20 Nick On 4/29/05, Joshwwhite@aol.com <Joshwwhite@aol.com> wrote:=20 >=20 > In a message dated 4/29/2005 12:03:16 AM Central Standard Time,=20 > firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > This really is an interesting thread, but I honestly cannot see how one= =20 > could "stereotype" certain denominations to lean towards certain builders= ..=20 > Surely this is purely a regional issue. You have left out Moller, Reuter = and=20 > others. Maybe I do not understand the point of this thread, however, if a= ny=20 > solid figures on this issue are available, I would certainly like to see= =20 > them! > =20 > Austin-Pr > EMS/AS-EC/Pr > Cassavant-Catholic/EC/Meth > Wicks-Bap/Meth > Ruffatti--RC/ /Pres > Kilgen-RC > Schantz-Meth >=20 > *GB <email@example.com>* wrote: >=20 > HI list, Does it appear that different denominations go with a particular > builder? For example: Hinners built a lot of organs, it seems, for > Catholic churches etc. See what happens with this thread. Gary >=20 >=20 > =20 --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/
(back) Subject: Re: Blue organs From: "N. Russotto" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:53 -0400 The Organ, a Fisk, can be found at http://www.cbfisk.com Click Instruments,= =20 and then scroll down to Opus 84, which is located at Mt. Holyoke College,= =20 Abbey Chapel. I am told that it is supposed to be Italian, but the Mixtures= =20 break backwards.=20 NFR On 4/28/05, ProOrgo53@aol.com <ProOrgo53@aol.com> wrote:=20 >=20 > In a message dated 4/28/2005 2:40:57 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 > email@example.com writes: >=20 > There was a British organ on ebay a while back that had been painted > (casework) a bright turquoise color; it had highly decorated fa=E7ade > pipes, as well, in complementary colors. But I can't imagine why the > church ever painted it that color! >=20 > They chose a blue that matched a blue in their stained glass. That's why= .. >=20 --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/
(back) Subject: Re: Tough material From: "Jim McFarland" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:06:03 -0400 On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:31:54 -0400 Nathan Smith <email@example.com> writes: > Well, as far as materials go, Polylon, and some modern > variations > on it, are pretty darn near perfect. It does not have the porosity > of > chrome-tanned leather, it has the potential to last 100 years, Nathan and Listers: We have made a good deal of money in recent years replacing torn polylon in Moller Organs. Toward the end they were using quite a bit of it in rebuild work. We have encountered it in swell shade motors and primaries, switches, and power pneumatics or various sizes. Polylon work-hardens much like metal does. Eventually it just plain rips at the point where the majority of the flexing occurs. What you are left with is a polylon covered gluing surface which is not pleasant to clean up. We have also encountered the use of heavy latex in swell motors. (This may just be a heavier version of perflex.) This material just plain disintegrates. Take note that the boxes of "safes", "johnson covers",(call them what you will), at the drug stores are date encoded. Same material, different use. Jim
(back) Subject: Re: One of Wicks 'wilder' ideas... ;) From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:49:55 EDT In a message dated 4/28/2005 6:16:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: There was one person on the Rodgers list which was familiar with this installation and the Antiphonal Harmonics. This is an original installation. I've heard the organ and the box but it seemed like quite a = large financial outlay for something which was based on 'book theory' and odd harmonics which are already produced naturally in pipes. The installation is Holy Cross in California. This organ is at St.Cross in Hermosa Beach. The whole instrument is = somewhat bizarre, especially the antiphonal. I installed the harmonics in a box perhaps a decade after the organ was installed. It was a Wicks factory = addition, per the intructions of the designer. The several ranks are 12 note ranks. = Tuning instructions were very interesting--"turn the venier sharp 3 cents = for this one, 14 cents flat for that one, etc." Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA
(back) Subject: Re: tongues of flame(liturgical dancers) From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:56:12 EDT In a message dated 4/28/2005 11:03:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: Thanks for the enlightenment. Where did the idea come from about David dancing naked before the LORD? Well, one clue is the scripture reference which states "David danced naked = before the LORD." This was when the Ark was returned to Jerusalem. Book = of Kings? Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA
(back) Subject: Re: Organs and denominations From: <AEolianSkinner@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:03:07 EDT I've got a good story for yal. I went to go play at Houston Second = Baptiat Church here in Houston. It has a large five manual pipe organ built by Rodgers. So, while I was playing I was also looking at the rostrum area = and to my surprise, I saw a Hammond B3 sitting on the other side from the massive = 747 like console I was sitting at. When I was done, I asked the organists, = Whats the story with that Hammond and he told me that they only use the five manual once or maybe twice during the day. The rest of the time they use = the Hammond. That really shocked me. I couldn't believe that. Just thought = I would put my two cents in. Best Regards, Gregory Hinson
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organnot a pipe organ-Wurlitzer From: "Daniel Hopkins" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:27:27 -0300 I would think=20 Which came first The Chicken or the egg ( The electronic or the Authentic Pipe Organ) If the ranks of pipes outnumber the digtal ranks of pipes(=3D pipe = Organ) which did the organ start out as, Electronic or pipe. but an instrument that started off as electronic with a couple ranks of = real pipes, I wouldnt consider a pipe Organ, but a Digital Pipe Combo But a pipe organ is still a pipe organ if it has traps like in a = wurlitzer. the determining factor is the initial intention of the instrument = itself. =20 My 1 1/2 cents worth Danielwh
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ? From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:30:00 -0400 At 07:41 PM 2005-04-28, you wrote: >In a message dated 4/28/05 1:54:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com writes: >I may not be of much help here, but APOBA (American Pipe Organ Builders >Association), has a definition of a pipe organ that states that all stops >should be pipe, with the only allowances being 32' stops and Chimes. > >May I be so bold as to ask for a bit more clarification? I had = understood >that the APOBA specifies that digital 32 pedal stops, percussions and >"extensions" are allowed. AM I correct here or did I misunderstand >something somewhere? I know that entire divisions or a division with one = >or two pipe ranks and the rest being digital are no no's. Scott, What do you mean by "extensions" - bottom octave of an 8' rank?, bottom = of 16' stops, some of the 32' stops? Arie V. >
(back) Subject: Re: new topic From: "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:30:38 -0600 Hello, Nate, et al: =20 Let me assure you that Souther Baptists=20 in the 1950s thought that a Hammond=20 organ was "right" for most of the thousands=20 of small churches. It required little or=20 no maintenance, never needed tuning, and=20 was plug-and-play. At that time, we were=20 predominantly still a rural denomination. About 80% of our people lived in small=20 communities. =20 This was endorsed by the Baptist Sunday=20 School Board, Church Music Division, in=20 Nashville, TN. =20 With that kind of endorsement, and the=20 recommendations coming "from Nashville,"=20 our operational headquarters, thousands=20 of Baptist churches bought Hammonds. =20 More on that as you need to know about it,=20 but I'm going to breakfast first. <grins> =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: Re: tongues of flame(liturgical dancers) From: "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:22:18 -0400 On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 11:03:40PM -0400, Cole wrote: > C or M wrote: > > >He wore an ephod, which was a Priestly garment. > > Thanks for the enlightenment. Where did the idea come from about David > dancing naked before the LORD? > 'cuz "Naked Richard Gere" puts more (mostly female, a few male) fannies in the seats than "Richard Gere in an Ephod" does? Using the same reasoning, we should commission concerts of French Romantic organ pieces by comely French actresses . . . I bet there's at least one who could play well enough . . . well, Heck, if they're (un)dressed suitably, who CARES how well they play? Do wonders for our instrument's popularity, I'd wager.
(back) Subject: Re: tongues of flame(liturgical dancers) From: "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:25:46 -0400 On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 07:56:12AM -0400, Steskinner@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/28/2005 11:03:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Well, one clue is the scripture reference which states "David danced = naked > before the LORD." This was when the Ark was returned to Jerusalem. Book = of > Kings? > Google is your friend. I remembered it as Kings too: II Samuel 6:14-16, 20-23  And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.  So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.  And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.  Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!  And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.  And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.  Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organnot a pipe organ-Pan Flute? From: "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:28:20 -0400 On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 10:27:27AM -0300, Daniel Hopkins wrote: > I would think > Which came first > The Chicken or the egg > ( The electronic or the Authentic Pipe Organ) > If the ranks of pipes outnumber the digtal ranks of pipes(=3D pipe = Organ) > which did the organ start out as, Electronic or pipe. > but an instrument that started off as electronic with a couple ranks > of real pipes, I wouldnt consider a pipe Organ, but a Digital Pipe > Combo > > But a pipe organ is still a pipe organ if it has traps like in a = wurlitzer. > the determining factor is the initial intention of the instrument = itself. > > My 1 1/2 cents worth > Danielwh Seems to me that the Pan Flute qualifies . . . all pipes. *grins and ducks behind the keydesk*
(back) Subject: The Pan Flute is not an Organ From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:23:55 EDT AND WHERE IS THIS DISCUSSION GOING?
(back) Subject: Re: Organs and denominations From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:24:46 -0600 Good Morning, Gregory, et al: =20 When Second Baptist Church meets to worship,=20 they have some music in traditional style,=20 but the majority of their worship is seated=20 in the Contemporary Christian Music styles. =20 As one fellow said, "The classical stuff=20 works on the pipe organ, but when we want=20 to be moved by the Spirit, we use the B3." =20 Now you know he rest of the story. Many=20 Southern Baptist Churches are into "pray=20 and sway" styles, using 7-11 texts (seven=20 words sung eleven times through). We have=20 a very large church in the middle of the=20 Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex that deliberately=20 refused to provide any space for an organ,=20 for they would be using only CCM, whatever=20 it costs. =20 If you, like I, grew up in an environment=20 where music styles were for a dignified=20 expression, as defined by classical styles=20 and methods of tone production out of=20 northern Europe and taught in most of our=20 institutions of higher learning, then the=20 CCM is nonsense. Keep a close eye and ear=20 on them, for a few things are being created=20 and sung that will prove to be classics in=20 the next 20 years. Styles change and the=20 music expressed sometimes establishes some=20 pieces very well, is appreciated, loved,=20 and repeated often, even though it may=20 not be performed on an organ. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: Re: Demessieux From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:29:09 EDT In a message dated 4/29/2005 2:06:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, email@example.com writes: got your diving gear ready? if you are jumping i will follow..... not toooooo old to learn music i should have learned in college am I? <EG> dale
(back) Subject: Re: Denominational Organs From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:46:45 EDT Desiree' wrote: Austin-Pr EMS/AS-EC/Pr Cassavant-Catholic/EC/Meth Wicks-Bap/Meth Ruffatti--RC/ /Pres Kilgen-RC Schantz-Meth Where did you get these ideas? I know of Austins in Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal and Congregational churches. More, in fact, than = Presbyterian ones. E. M. Skinner-Aeolian Skinner spanned a wide variety of denominations. = While being known as an "Episcopalian" style of organ due to the English style = of insturments that they produced in the 20's and 30's, they appealed to = churches who wanted "the best money could buy." Often many churches in a city = would get a bigger Skinner instrument than the church down the street or across = town just to say that they had a Skinner pipe organ. Here in South Carolina, I = know of one church that got a Skinner just because the wealthy farmers knew = that it was the best pipe organ that you could buy--and it's in a Methodist = church. Sadly, it's been replaced by a Rodgers. Wicks organs are across the board in churches. Considering that the Wicks = family is Catholic, there are many that are in RC churches. There are = some in cathedrals and some other major catholic churches in the US, such as St. Adalbert's Basilica in Grand Rapids, MI and St. Mary's Cathedral, Peoria, = IL. Ruffatti is building organs for three major Baptist churches right now...mine, one in Little Rock, AR, and one in Alpharetta, GA. The one in = Little Rock is a big 4 manual, and the other two are both large 5 manual intruments. Schantz builds across denominational lines, too. They have a brand new = one in the Congregational church in Naples, FL, that is advertised in the back = of this month's TAO. Also, the huge one in NYC at St. Vincent Ferrer = Catholic Church. I know lots of Schantzes in Baptist churches, such as Providence Baptist, Charlotte, NC, First Baptist Orlando, First Baptist, Fort = Lauderdale, and First Baptist, Augusta, GA, all of which are major installations. You can't paint with such a broad generalization. While there are some denominations that might have preferences for some styles of instruments = that certain builders specialize in, these days, most churches are too business = savvy to just talk to one company. The days are long gone when the Pastor makes = the decision of who the builder will be over a snifter of cognac and a cigar. = A committee is going to be formed, and they will base the decision on $$$, quality of work, recommendations from other churches, and then make a = decision. There is no such thing as a denominational favorite. The LDS church makes = recommendations for certain builders whith whom they have good working relationships, but I think that even there, it can ultimately come down to = the Stake's choice. Sebastian can offer insight there, since he has just worked with = the NYC Stake Center. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organnot a pipe organ-Pan Flute? From: "robertelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:49:42 +0800 Wait till Sebastian reads that! And that keydesk won't save you! Take it like a man! BE > Seems to me that the Pan Flute qualifies . . . all pipes. > > *grins and ducks behind the keydesk* -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 27/04/2005
(back) Subject: Re: Blue organs From: "Mark Nelson" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:59:20 -0400 The Mt. Holyoke organ is an interesting one in the Fisk history books.=20 http://www.cbfisk.com/organs/op084_01.html Since there exists a Skinner up front, this organ could have a creative=20 slant. The intent was to create something that had some of the Italian=20 flavor, and yet played a certain amount of northern music of the Baroque. W= e=20 patterned the organ after a hypothetical place with influences from both=20 Germanic and Italian culture (as many places on both sides of the northern= =20 Italian border). So imagine a 17th century Italian inspired organ rebuilt b= y=20 a southern German builder in the 18th century! The Ruckpositive & Pedal 16'= s=20 date from this time, but the Great is pretty much still it's Italian=20 grandfather. The mixtures certainly do "look" funny, but here you have the= =20 ability to draw independently each pitch of the Ripieno as is customary on= =20 Italian organs. I'll give you a fuller explanation if you'd like. This was= =20 done with the double draw system which makes for a more compact chest=20 layout. We've not used this system recently. Looks pretty wierd on paper--yet the scalings, tuning and (low) wind=20 pressure are appropriate for the styles. Give it a listen, it's a sweet=20 sound that you won't hear on our other work.=20 Cheers! Mark Nelson C. B. Fisk, Inc.=20 Gloucester On 4/29/05, N. Russotto <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:=20 >=20 > The Organ, a Fisk, can be found at http://www.cbfisk.com Click=20 > Instruments, and then scroll down to Opus 84, which is located at Mt.=20 > Holyoke College, Abbey Chapel. I am told that it is supposed to be Italia= n,=20 > but the Mixtures break backwards.=20 > NFR >
(back) Subject: Re: Denominational Organs From: "Desiree'" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Actually, that list was written late last night during a sinus headache. I = knew very well that people would wonder where I got these ideas. As a = matter of fact, I should have put that very disclaimer...we cant say that = a particular builder has a predominance in a particular denomination. It's = just not do-able. Austin does have somewhere on their website that they = tend to have a lot of Presbyterian Church installations. One can say that a lot of Catholic Churches do indeed have Wicks or even = Kilgens. St Rita here in Chicago has a lovely Kilgen of 39 ranks that they = are working fevereshly to get approval to do some restoration work. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com