PipeChat Digest #5181 - Saturday, February 26, 2005
 
RE: Wicks in Columbus
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@comcast.net>
RE: Wicks in Columbus
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Skinner and Bach, Ernest White Moller
  by "Millie & David Kenney" <kenn411@bellsouth.net>
Ave Maria
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
just a question...
  by "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net>
Singing some Hebrew
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: The Orchestra in the Organ
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
COME TO THE USA NOW - GET A GREAT DEAL!
  by "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net>
Re: Wicks in Columbus
  by "Scott A Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
RE: COME TO THE USA NOW - GET A GREAT DEAL!
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Wicks in Columbus
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Ave Maria
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Desiree's love of organs
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Desiree's love of organs
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Desiree's love of organs
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Desiree's love of organs
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Desiree's love of organs
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Wicks in Columbus From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:08:18 -0600   Anyone who thinks they=92re throwing out a perfectly fine Skinner should = take a look at the specification at:   =20   http://www.saintjosephcathedral.org/sitemap/music/organs_and_organists.ht= m   =20   That must be the only =93Skinner=94 with a IV - 2/3=92 mixture on the = =93Grande Orgue=94 , a V - 1=92 mixture on the =93Positif Orgue=94, and a III =96 = =BC=92 mixture on the =93Recit Orgue=94.   =20   While Fritts might not be my first choice for a liturgical church (not = sure why they didn=92t ask me) it looks like they=92re getting a lot of real = 32=92 ,16=92, and 8=92 gravitas and quite a bit of sheer musicality. I=92d = like to hear it. I might even be impressed with the way it sounds.   =20   Michael   =20   _____ =20   From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of ScottFop@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 12:43 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Wicks in Columbus   =20   In a message dated 2/26/05 6:20:07 AM Central Standard Time, = RMB10@aol.com writes:         Isn't the Wicks on there from the Catholic cathedral in Columbus that's=20 getting a big new tracker?       Yes, and having looked on the Cathedral's music webpage, I am not = impressed with the spec at all. Another neo-baroque "squeak box" going into a Liturgical space that cries for foundation tone. No doubt they are = throwing out the E.M. Skinner pipework and case, which was BUILT for that space = in 1923 and is beautiful. <sigh>          
(back) Subject: RE: Wicks in Columbus From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:11:23 -0800 (PST)   OK I take that not many have heard the PLU Fritts organ Its amazing!       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250  
(back) Subject: Skinner and Bach, Ernest White Moller From: "Millie & David Kenney" <kenn411@bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:19:20 -0500   Excerpted from John Speller:   "There are at least some indications of what Bach liked. He criticized = Silbermann's instruments for not being brilliant enough, and seems to have = preferred the sounds of Schnitger's organs. He liked instruments with = more than adequate wind supplies and no tendency toward unsteadiness of = wind.   Big, loud and screechy. Probably an Ernest White Moller would have suited = him best."     My comments and questions:   I was just about to post regarding at least a fringe of this topic: would = someone please explain an "Ernest White" Moller versus a "Richard = Whitelegg" Moller versus, say, a "Mathias Peter Moller" Moller. I grew up = playing on many Mollers in NW Shenandoah Valley in Virginia. The Moller = factory was nearby, and many churches had Mollers in them. However, even = the organ teachers didn't speak technically (at least to their students) = about this "kind of Moller" versus "that kind of Moller". Maybe I did = not realize the pertinence of such conversation. But, on the other hand, = I had no Schnitgers or Silbermanns to compare. Reuter and Estey were the = only other "competitors" in the area, and I heard their instruments on = only a handful of occasions, and, frankly, at that time, all the organs = sounded "similar". The only exception was the 1926 and 1929 Mollers (in = my hometown) with those big and juicy Open Diapasons (one of our PipeChat = or PIPORG-L colleagues lovingly refers to them as the   So, would someone step forward and educate everyone else here please. I = would feel more able to hold a discussion using certain terms if they were = understood by all on the list. Thanks in advance. i am in no way seeking = thoughts on which design concept was Moller's best or worst, just an idea = of the tonal philosophies and building techniques, and perhaps some = instruments, locations, and recordings that might reinforce the ideas.   Thanks again; I am really looking forward to hearing from any of you that = can address this topic. David Kenney   Millie & David Kenney 135 18th Street, NE Cleveland, TN 37311   (423) 473-9705    
(back) Subject: Ave Maria From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:24:04 -0600   I think Ave Maria in the Bach/Gounod version has become "just another pretty tune" to many brides-to-be. I regularly hear it at Protestant weddings, including some I have done as the pastor. Brides just "like" it, much as they do the Pachelbel Canon in D. Oh well, it doesn't bother me if somebody wants to ask Mary to bless them--whether they know that's what they're doing or not! ;>)   Dennis Steckley   "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss        
(back) Subject: just a question... From: "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:29:20 -0800   This is just a question and perhaps a bit inappropriate. I am sure the Fritts organ to be installed in St. Joseph's Cathedral will be a grand organ. At first glace, I feel more comfortable with the Wicks stoplist = and also feel that a more Skinneresque organ would be preferable. But I have stopped myself for a minute to say "keep and open mind."   That said, I wonder how much the age of each of us dictates our tastes in organ tone? I entered college in 1980, and was appalled to see a large = 1929 Skinner removed and replaced by a large electric action Holtkamp.   My professor had been a Fulbright scholar with Walcha, and had overseen = the installation of a large Holtkamp (Sr.) in St. Luke's Episcopal in Birmingham, AL, which has always been one of my favorite organs. The Holtkamp at the university never had a chance as the acoustics, well, uh, there weren't any.   I grew up with neo-baroque and neo-classic organs and the massive and colorful (in a fresh way) sounds of big Skinners, Austins, and Mollers = were new and different and made me think differently. I was excited by them.   I can't help wondering if I had grown up in the era where Skinner and Aeolian-Skinner organs and the American Classic sound was so much a part = of every day life if I would respond in the same positive way to Holtkamps = and Flentrops, because they would certainly be something new and exciting.   In spite of my personal opinions of the tonal style chosen for the = Columbus organ under discussion, I am confident that the resulting organ will be a musical and useful one - albeit with its own limitations (just like I am sure the Wicks abounds in.) Had it been built 20 years ago I would be worried.   Personally, if I could have my choice, I would pick a large Daniel Angerstien Moller of the recent past (without the troublesome slider chests.) Those instruments all have a very classic backbone, but broad scales and colorful flutes, strings (in abundance often,) and reeds.   However, I am VERY impressed with the organs by the popular tracker = builders like Fritts, Fisk, and others. When these are unsuccessful (as the = Seattle Fisk) it is clear they did everything they could to overcome a bad acoustical situation. And no, they need the jobs so they should not turn them down because of a bad room. I rather think they step up to a challenge.   I don't guess this point needs to be made as we can all think, but we = can't get mad at these builders - each institution has a range of excellent builders to choose from, and with the devalued dollar we are lucky that = the best of them are Americans since we can't just off to Holland for a = Flentrop any more! My point being that these churches and colleges make their choices, and often pay the price by having to live with them. OK - I am getting a shower and getting away from this PC. I know you all see my name and press *delete!* I enjoy these discussions and the opinions and points = of view offered - they make me think!   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Randy Terry Music Minister The Episcopal Church of St. Peter Redwood City, California        
(back) Subject: Singing some Hebrew From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:33:26 +0000   On 2/25/05 11:33 PM, "Mura Kievman" <mkievman@nyc.rr.com> wrote:   > By the way, our Dutch Reform Church also likes it when we sing in = Hebrew.   Our whole (Lutheran) congregation sings in Hebrew every Sunday. But with = a very limited vocabulary. Some Amens, a few Alleluias, and very little = more.   Alan  
(back) Subject: RE: The Orchestra in the Organ From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:46:25 +1300   >Ross, for pratically the entire history of the organ there have been orchestral voices in the organ even if they weren't trying to imitate = the real instruments. The only sound in the organ that doesn't come from any other instrument is the Diapason. The stops of this family are unique to = the organ. I don't think even you would want to go back to the days when = only Diapasons were in the organ. So as long as organ builders continue to = build organs with stops such as the Trumpet, Krummhorn, Oboe, Traverse Flute, Viola da Gamba, Piccolo, and even Chimes there will be a little bit of = the orchestra in every organ.=20   No problem with any of this, not even a wee bit! :-) No, I certainly wouldn't want to go back to Diapasons only.=20 =A0 > I suggest that you come to this country and hear the best examples of Skinner, Kimball, and Austin before you make a judgement on the validity = of this type of organ. Heck, while you're here you might as well also hear = some Hooks, Johnsons, and Hutchings organs too just to round out your = experience.     I'd really love to do this, and would do so if I had the dosh necessary. = I'd want to hear all kinds of organs, from you old Tannenbergs right through = the worst of excesses of the octopod period to the very latest stuff. It = would be a fantastic trip, and I'd want to meet and listen to all kinds of = organ buffs and organ cranks as well, from the most professional of builders = down to the fellow who, some day, might even one rank playing at home.=20   Now, if only I could persuade a group of you to band together and = organise a "Please let's educate Ross about the history of American pipe organs" = trip and finance it.......................................................................= .... .....................   Ross    
(back) Subject: COME TO THE USA NOW - GET A GREAT DEAL! From: "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:59:24 -0800       ROSS WROTE: I'd really love to do this, and would do so if I had the dosh necessary. Now, if only I could persuade a group of you to band together and organise = a "Please let's educate Ross about the history of American pipe organs" trip and finance it. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++   ACTUALLY,   There was a news spot recently where the city of San Francisco is experiencing a windfall in tourism revenue because the American dollar is = so devalued at this point.   Those of you outlanders with funds and time, now would be a great time to plan a visit. I wish I could invite you to San Francisco - you'd have a great time, it's just not the place to study American organ building. We = do have some fabulous instruments, but the real history lessons can be = learned in the northeast.   Just a thought...   Randy Terry          
(back) Subject: Re: Wicks in Columbus From: "Scott A Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:04:52 -0800 (PST)   I totally disagree. Christ Church Cathedral has an organ tuned in Kellner = and its sings with more beauty then an electic-thingy would anyday. Just = a matter of taste I suppose.   Desiree' <nicemusica@yahoo.com> wrote:Scott Foppiano (with two "p's", mea = culpa ;) ) Wrote: >MY opinion is that I just DONT like trackers in Liturgical worship spaces. They don't have the expression a big EP with> multiple swell boxes have nor do they generally offer the same colors. I am sorry but the Great division specification is woefully lacking in 8' tone, in my opinion, especially for a room with that acoustic. Just like the Episcopal church in Grand Rapids that has (had) a huge Romantic Austin in the chancel and then some organist of theirs   INSISTED on a Cliquot copy in the gallery tuned in some weird temperament. Everyone agrees that it's cute for a recital or a specific piece of music now and then, but it does NOT serve liturgy and congregationa singing AT ALL.   From Desiree':   Now there you have some good points. The Grand Rapids church sold to UNT. If I recall correctly, the dedicatory at UNT was not TOO well received. That particular instrument was not suited for liturgy.   Trackers in Liturgical spaces: I think that there are some successful trackers in Liturgical Spaces. One is being dedicated this weekend herein Chicago. The new Fisk at St Chrysostoms may be a very good instrument,or not. We will see tomorrow.     I did not intend to offend Scott in making my post. I am just reminded of the many Sunday worship services held in Lagerquist Hall at Pacific Lutheran University and how wonderful the singing was to the Fritts organ. I don't think that the organ has a temperment that is going to offend to congregation, or leave them wanting different. I am also reminded that Lagerquist Hall has about 4 seconds reverberation. There may be more.   Im sure the Skinner is beautiful. I have not heard it. Im sure the Fritts will be nice as well. We will lhave to wait and see/hear the outcome.                 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:         Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St Champaign, IL 61820 217-390-0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net  
(back) Subject: RE: COME TO THE USA NOW - GET A GREAT DEAL! From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:17:41 +1300   >Those of you outlanders with funds and time, now would be a great time to plan a visit. I wish I could invite you to San Francisco - you'd have a great time, it's just not the place to study American organ building. We = do have some fabulous instruments, but the real history lessons can be = learned in the northeast.   Well, if you'd like "to restrict" my suggested trip to San Francisco and your north-east, I'd be happy to comply. :-)   I've spent quite a number of weeks in the San Francisco area and played = only two large organs (Grace Cathedral & the RC Cathedal), but a few smaller = ones as well. It's a magnificent area and I loved visiting not only the = immediate city area but places like Muir Woods, Stinson Beach, San Raphael, San Anselmo, Point Reyes, Inverness etc.etc.etc. Stunning scenery and wonferfully welcoming people. One of the best sermons I've ever heard was from a newly-ordained middle-aged woman at the Episcopal church in Ross, down the road from San Anselmo.   Ross      
(back) Subject: Re: Wicks in Columbus From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:14:58 -0800 (PST)   And dont EEEVEN Get me started on the Seattle Flentrop. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM YUMMY! It's sensuously beautiful.     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Ave Maria From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:19:11 -0600   Hello, PipeChatters: The Bach-Gounod setting of this music is some of the most "beautiful" music ever written. I am pleased to learn from this list that the Ave Maria prayer text may not have been the very first applied to the tune. In more recent times, I was captivated by it when our String Prof played it in church (University Baptist Church, Abilene, Texas) one Sunday morning. As I looked into the bulletin, the title was listed as, "Meditation," by Bach-Gounod. We were not likely ever to engage the Ave Maria in our church service, but this lovely moment in music transported me out of the mundaneness of a fellow sawing away on a violin to the very throne of God, Himself, . . . at least in my mind. If you are part of a church that lowers their tribute to Mary or holds a different theological persuasion, I see no harm in allowing the music to do what it does best: fill the searching soul with a vision of the Eternal. Call it what you wish, the music is very much worthy of being played in almost any church gathering where the focus is on worship. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Desiree's love of organs From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:55:16 EST   Desiree' wrote: >Now...as musch as I love all organs of worth, EP or >Tracker, oe even a toaster, 2 manuals or 5, Yesterday, >or YesterYear, I have to say that Paul Fritts organs >are in no way "squeak boxes". Even people comment on >the organ at PLU without even hearing it. It DOES have >a very large Swell division, and can play all periods >of repertoire beautifully.   You have said before that you don't like trackers and that you prefer electric action organs, and you have also voiced your love for Ruffatti = organs (not that you've played one of their new ones) to several of us in personal = emails, even dedicating a book of your hymn intros to my church (unbeknownst to me = or my church) because we are getting one. We on the list also know of your = love for Rodgers organs, because you were waging a campaign to get your priests = to throw out a pipe organ at St. Turibius Church in Chicago to replace it = with a Rodgers, AND not even have any of the existing pipes connected to it, even =   with the possibility of having new windchests built.   What are the factors that determine if an organ has worth in your = eyes/ears? It seems as if there is no rhyme or reason, except that if Diane Bish = played it. There is more to an organ than just being able to play loud music, fanfares on a chamade and toccatas. Large instruments are fun to play, = and I'm blessed that I've been able to play one regularly before, and even more = blessed that I've gotten to design one for my church, but I realize that these are = not the staples of the organ world. I've never read a post of yours making a positive comment about a 4 rank unit organ, an early organ-reform movement = tracker, or even a wonderful example of early American organ building. While I wouldn't want to have to play one of these every week, there are some gems = out there.   I've played a fantastic Kney tracker here in South Carolina. In New = England I've played some great Johnsons, Hutchings, and Hooks. There are = wonderful Beckeraths, Flentrops, Noacks, and Fisks that are fun to play and make you =   really watch your technique. Of course, I do love Aeolian-Skinners, = Kimballs, Murray Harrises, and organs of that genre, but I have an appreciation for = organs of other styles, because I am a complete organist and I understand organbuilding, due to the fact that I am a musician and can make music on = anything that I have to sit down at. I wouldn't want to have to play a screechophone = every week, or an organ without modern day conveniences, but I have learned how = to appeciate organs that are not normally my cup of tea and can't play my = normal style of music.   The Ruffatti at my church is going to incorporate the best styles of the Romantic and Orchestral styles of organbuilding, taking inspiration from = American, English, French and Italian schools of building. I have done lots of research with organ builders, as well as playing organs of all styles = across this country, to get ideas for what I wanted, finding what worked and what I = felt didn't work. In our application, a tracker just wouldn't have worked, = because we needed a moveable console, the pipes are divided on two sides of the = baptistry (stacked over 5 levels) and also needed an antiphonal division, so = electric action was the only possibility.   I do find it interesting that Desiree' has already decided that she wants = to make a CD on our organ, when she hasn't played or heard a new Ruffatti, = nor has she been in our new sanctuary (none of our church staff has either, = since it's just a bunch of steel being erected right now), and we're not sure = when the organ will even be finished (due to the the fact that it's going into a = brand new building)--summer 2006 is the projected time for installation.   Please explain why you love my church's organ when it's only in = construction right now, why you love Rodgers to the point of throwing out a pipe organ, = and why you suddenly are so in favor of trackers when you have never liked = them before.   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Desiree's love of organs From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:22:56 -0800 (PST)     > Please explain why you love my church's organ when > it's only in construction > right now, why you love Rodgers to the point of > throwing out a pipe organ, and > why you suddenly are so in favor of trackers when > you have never liked them > before. > > Monty Bennett     Well Well Well... First...I have never said I don't like trackers. I don't like BAD trackers. Or more appropriately, I don't recall having said that.I actually love a few of the trackers I have player. Including the one at a small Episcopal Church in Federal Way, Washington relocated by OHS. I believe is is every bit of...12 stops.   I have sid to the list before...my previous job was a bad organ. Even the prioest in charge knew it was. And when people come on-list to describe the Organs of the Holy Name Cathedral and how inadequate they have been, I tell them that parts of that the core of the organ at my previous church were among parts from the organs at Holy Name. Even a lister who attended worship commented on how thin the sound was, etc. ANYTHING would have been better. If all recall, my current place of employment is satisfactory. Its nto the best, but it works a heluva lot better. And its ALL from One builder...NOT a hodgepodge that had ELEVEN major repairs over a 30 year course.     I sense that dedicating music to people or places, even if medeocre and incorrect, is just an abhorance.   Peopel grow, don't they? Is anyone here the same musician they were 2 seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years ago? I know that I am not. The more I study with my local teacher, and play nice organs...small and large, I see things. I see that, as I said above, I see that the organ at my previous church what just not pleasant. YET, Im comfortable at my church now, with my 23 ranks.     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Desiree's love of organs From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:28:31 -0800 (PST)   OK...one of the very first recordings that drew me to the organ was EPB at Busch-Reisinger. I am now able to play some of the music from that recording, and it gives me a tingly feeling when I hear that recording. The Bach 545 is there, and when EPB reaches that low C the 16 Fagot just roars thru that room like nothing matters.   My favorite instrument to practice upon at PLU was a 3 stop tracker. I never liked to practice on the Fritts until pieces were ready to perform and register, as well as in lessons.   I hope this pacifies anyone who had their tierce's tied.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Desiree's love of organs From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:36:55 EST   >My favorite instrument to practice upon at PLU was a 3 >stop tracker. I never liked to practice on the Fritts >until pieces were ready to perform and register, as >well as in lessons.   You told me before that it was very hard to get time on the Fritts in Lagerquist Hall except in the late at night or in the middle of the night = because of all that went on in there, so the organ students had to fight for time. I =   just see lots of inconsistencies here...  
(back) Subject: Re: Desiree's love of organs From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:41:13 -0800 (PST)   This is true as well. However, even when we had appointed 3 hour practice times, I elected to go to the small organ, or the piano.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/