PipeChat Digest #5051 - Saturday, January 1, 2005
Father of 7 kids has his say. Father of 3 agrees
  by "LBoekeloo" <lboekeloo@triton.net>
Re: Moods and Playing
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
RE: Moods and Playing
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Moods and Playing
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Parenting and Church--off topic
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Moods and Playing
  by "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com>
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
Re: Let's Please Quote Virgil Fox Correctly
  by <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
The Organs of Liverpool, England
  by <OrganNYC@aol.com>
RE: The Organs of Liverpool, England
  by "Robert Bell" <bobbell@optonline.net>
Running Rampant in Sanctuary
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
New Year!
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>

(back) Subject: Father of 7 kids has his say. Father of 3 agrees From: "LBoekeloo" <lboekeloo@triton.net> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:33:34 -0500   Thank you for your wonderful example of discipline. Being raised in the Reformed and Christian Reformed Churches, it was common to have the husband and wife "take turns" going to church while one stayed home with the small children. In those denominations, there were two services, morning and evening so it was easy to trade off with the spouse. My three daughters were all introduced to church when they were 18 months old and were told to sit and be quiet. I will admit that I had to walk out ONE TIME with each one of them, remind them of what is expected of them and how disappointed their mother and I would be if the poor behavior continued and then bring them back in. Only ONCE did I have to do this - they were little angels after that. AND, we made them use the restroom prior to entering church so there was no excuse to want to leave. Today, when my daughters return home and attend church with us, they always ask if they were "that naughty in church like so-and-so". I just smile and say, NO. I can count on this question from one of them every time they attend church with us. The two oldest are elementary education teachers; first and second grade. Discipline is a requirement in their classroom. I can't help but think my wife and I had something to do with that. Now on to postludes.. Many times I've had young children and adults appear at the console while I play the postlude. I usually make a comment of what I am playing or what I am doing so they know I am aware they are there. This keeps hands and feet away from the controls. After I finish, I ALWAYS show them something, ask if they are taking lessons. If they play piano, I ask if they want to try a small piece on the organ. We now have a young man in our church that is an accomplished pianist and attends many of the same AGO recitals and concerts that I do. He always comes up to the console to watch. I see a future organist every week. Where has discipline gone? In many denominations, today's worship services are turning into Hollywood productions so that entertainment is the "goal" instead of worship. There is no way the church can compete with Hollywood; they've done it longer and they have unlimited resources. I can't tell you how many churches I've been in that say, "we don't use the organ any more, we have a praise band". My response is, how's the attendance? Most of the time, attendance is stagnant or declining. Changing a worship service from traditional to contemporary introduces a "concert feel" to church where anything goes including disruptive behavior. Maybe the denominations that have left traditional worship behind for entertainment should rethink the path they've taken. My 2 cents worth.. Larry Boekeloo -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Mead Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 12:07 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Father of 7 kids has his say. It's time I step in. I'm self-employed in the pipe organ business and my wife is a part time organist. I am also the father of 7 children procreated with the organist. None of them is older than 12 years. My children do not misbehave in church and they can sit through an hour long service without being entertained with crayons and food and all the other stuff that's offered them by those who usually have little knowledge of children. Are my kids exceptional? Not really. How do I get them to sit through a church service without disrupting anyone? After they've been released from the nursery/toddler room around the age of 4 they are introduced to the pew and there they must sit and stand when everyone else sits and stands. If they don't conform to what I, their older brother and sisters and everyone else is doing (they never do the first time, I don't expect them to) they are removed quietly from the church to the van in the parking lot and warned of an unpleasant consequence if they don't conform. This worked with one of my children. All the others tested my resolve and suffered the consequence of non conformance. I think two of them required a 2nd reminder. My role in this arrangement (besides dispensing "correction") is to be seen as someone who can be trusted to follow through (without anger) to the letter with what they promised to do in situations both good and bad. It's that simple. They learn at that point that they can rely and depend on at least one person in their life and that gives them great comfort and tremendous security. What does the child gain sitting through a church service that they cannot (may not) comprehend? They learn how to concentrate on something. The "something" is sitting still and not making noise for about an hour. Once they've learned to concentrate they've been given the keys to acquiring knowledge. One cannot learn without being able to concentrate. None of my children require "Ritalin" to control hyper-activity. I cannot deny that some children truly require this medicine but I cannot believe that up to 5% of N.A. children truly require this drug. I think most of them have never been taught the discipline of concentration. If anyone's read this far and is entrusted with the care of children and is open to free advise, here's something that's vital (I think): Never correct a child in public. Never chastise a child in public. Praise them in public when it's due. Correct them in private so they are not humiliated. Children hate humiliation and justifiably so. But they unknowingly crave correction, in private, when it's required and when the corrector is in not angry. Correction governed and tempered by anger is abusive. The child can clearly see that an angry corrector is merely taking advantage of the fact they are usually bigger and stronger and the correction is wasted--at best. I do not think the late Dr. Spock would not have endorsed my methods but they are supported by what was once known as "common-sense". Today I think it could be better named: "uncommon-sense". Children can sit through a church service and when they do, the adults around them end-up liking and respecting them and treating them nicely afterwards..... there's no end to the good that develops. Sincerely, AjMead -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Dominic Scullion Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 8:57 AM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: Bad kids Randy, I agree that there are thoughtless parents out there. But as someone who has dealt with keeping a small child amused at church, I can tell you it is no easy task. It is also usually the parishioners with no experience of dealing with kids that complain. To them I say get a grip. DS   _____   From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Randolph Runyon Sent: 29 December 2004 23:15 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Bad kids   On Dec 29, 2004, at 5:38 PM, Dominic Scullion wrote: What I am saying is that you have no right to expect children to be quiet at church. It is very difficult to get children to stay quiet in any occasion especially church. And by meaning about the concert was that children cannot see the validity or importance of prayer, music or worship. They will be noisy.   DS   I agree. My problem is with the parents. I'm not speaking on behalf of myself as organist, since as long as I've done my job and they pay me I'm happy, but rather on behalf of the poor worshipper whose worship is disturbed by thoughtless parents. I don't worship at the church where I play, but I do try my best to contribute to a worshipful experience for those who do.   But then I saw your reply to Charles Lester: "Yes it is distracting, but anyone should be allowed to go to Church including children. Adults can learn to deal with the screaming." Huh? Are you serious?   R. Runyon        
(back) Subject: Re: Moods and Playing From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:43:09 EST   Hello davide@theatreorgans.com, In reference to your comment:=20     There are times when situations around me cause a mental fatigue and even=20 depression and fear. I don=E2=80=99t feel the music in me, and can=E2=80= =99t even think=20 of sitting at the bench at home. If during those times I do get myself=20 to the keyboard, the music is solemn and quite somber, maybe even=20 depressing to one who might hear at that time.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =20 I used to be able to play piano concerts. =20 For one, I had programmed the Schumann "Davidsbundler," Grieg's "Holborne=20 Suite," a LOT of Chopin nocturnes, the Beethoven sonata with the Funeral=20 March, etc., without realizing how gloomy it all was. My six year old daug= hter=20 told me my program was all "dark." =20 Even now, when I'm really really feeling down, I have a set program of =20 music, starting with the Chopin nocturne in Em, and working my way through t= o a =20 nice transcription of Bach's "Jesu." It helps, although I suspect my left =20= arm=20 would not agree! =20 Victoria  
(back) Subject: RE: Moods and Playing From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:25:36 -0600   David=92s comment is interesting and hits home. However, I cannot ever tell how my mood is going to affect practice. Many times after court I have to make myself go to the church, and lately that has been hard. One of my judges is retiring January 3, and he has been hell-bent to try as many cases during the Christmas holidays as possible. I=92ve been in court until 7 or 8 o=92clock at night on several occasions, only to find out that he has scheduled more court the next day without notice to me. I have to scramble to keep two offices and caseloads and courts going. He has a long holiday coming, but the rest of us had to forfeit our holiday, and are facing full dockets and new judges the first of the year. While I love court, I hate all the administrative politics I have to deal with, and one=92s stamina lasts only so long. Whereas I = used to work all day, then spend 2-3 hours at the organ, I find that I=92m physically worn out after just under 2 hours at the console now.   Some times I feel that organ practice can switch a mood. I can go in tired and dispirited, and the practice will force me to concentrate on something else and relieve the mood. Sometimes I go in and the depressed mood gets heightened to the point I have to cut the practice short (this seems to stem mainly from a personal unpleasant episode with a person). I try not to choose pieces to match the mood =96 in fact, I generally start out choosing something just the opposite. But once I broke down crying in the middle of the Bach E-flat major P&F (which I think of as a happy piece), which proves that for me the type of music itself cannot lift the mood. But most of the time practice is a prayer without words, when the rest of the world goes away for a short time, and I sort through fingering, phrasing, whatever. Sometimes practice is a chance to argue my cases while playing with abandon, without thought.   I have started back at organ lessons, which requires a great deal more effort. I have chosen a teacher who is a 3 =BD hour drive away. The = last two lessons I have left home at 7:00 a.m., driven to Birmingham, warmed up, had the lesson lasting from 2-4 hours, then drove back, all in one day. But these lessons have been different. Before when I took lessons in Pensacola (about 1:15 hour drive), I left the lessons either euphoric or despondent, ready to quit. This time I am filled with thought, running through the pointers made, committing them to memory as best I can during rush-hour traffic. While I don=92t miss playing for church every Sunday, I do miss the discipline it imposed on playing and practice, and feel that the organ gives me an outlet from the stress of the daily grind.   I am impressed with full-time musicians that practice or play all day. I don=92t think I could do that =96 I=92m too easily bored. I wish = there was more time for practice, but then I wish I had a wonderful gym in town and an hour plus to devote to that too, and that I had more time for the yards and the kitties and my elderly friends. Someone once told me we make time in life to do the things we really want to do =96 we have to combat the financial, mood, time and other obstacles to get there.   Sorry I went on and on like that.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com          
(back) Subject: Re: Moods and Playing From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:08:42 EST   Glenda:   It appears you are suffering battle fatigue. That retiring judge doesn't seem to give a rat's hiney about your health. Take some time off or your body will insist and you'll go to the hospital eventually. Tell this "A" type old fart to just stick it. Cramming it in at the end of his = stint certainly isn't going to bother him much as he's headed for the pasture. Tell him you are not getting any younger and you never were the equal of "Super Woman." I don't want to read about your youthful obituary. Depression is not something to fool with.   Concerned fellow lister,   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Parenting and Church--off topic From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:20:03 EST   I am not a parent, but I don't see why parents let children run rampant in =   the sanctuary or just do as they please without any parental supervision. = When I was a child, I was always made to sit through a church service, not = allowed to go to the bathroom 15 times, I wasn't allowed to have snacks, I wasn't allowed to play--I WAS expected to sit quietly, pay attention, stand when = everyone stood up, sit when everyone sat--that's how I learned my first hymns, = that's where I first learned about liturgy, that's where I first got interested = in the organ. I remember a few times where I was restless and fidgety during =   church, and it was dealt with when I got home-in a rather stern way, and = you bet that it only happened a couple of times. I knew that church was a place = of reverence and of "good behavior," but people seem to be afraid to use any = kind of discipline these days. I'm only 35, so when I was growing up in the = 1970's she may have been strict, as that was probably the era when parental = leniency was starting to come into vogue. All I know that if I ever went running = off in the church, I would have been spanked with the wooden spoon when I got = home!   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Moods and Playing From: "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:03:14 -0700   Thanks Glenda (and others too), for expressing your feelings.   I agree with you that frequently the act of sitting at the console and playing can lift the mood. Most of the time when things at home, work, etc are going well, I'll be anxious to play and play and play. I'll have music in my head that needs to be expressed.   It's when the pressures of life hit harder that my mind feels empty of any creativity. Then I feel guilty for not playing 'happy' music. Yes, many great composers wrote incredible pieces during times of despair.   Oh, and worse still if I don't play either because of being overwhelmed or time pressures, I fear loosing my ability to play. Stupid isn't it? I've been playing since the early '70's! Not great, but consistently.   Happy and Safe New Year to all.   David E   David Evangelides Fulfillment Manager International Bible Society 719-867-2729 (Sent by wireless T-Mobile Sidekick)  
(back) Subject: HAPPY NEW YEAR! From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:28:18 -0000   May I wish all friends on the group a very Happy New Year, and let's = hope that the international co-operation forced on us by the natural disaster = in the South West Asia area will last into the future and bring benefits to = all mankind, especially those least fortunate.   Will Light Coventry UK        
(back) Subject: Re: Let's Please Quote Virgil Fox Correctly From: <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:08:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00)   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: The Organs of Liverpool, England From: <OrganNYC@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:45:33 EST   Dear colleagues, Many of you may be interested to learn of an excellent website put = together by Daniel Bishop which features the 3 large and notable organs in = Liverpool, England. The link to this website is http://www.liverpoolorgans.co.uk.     My sole visit to Liverpool in the mid-80s found St. George's Hall to be closed for much-needed repairs, so I was unable to see or hear that = organ. Included on this website are the specifications, histories, and photos = of: Liverpool Anglican Cathedral - Henry Willis (1923) Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral - J.W. Walker (1967) St. George's Hall - "Father" Willis (1845) Happy New Year to All! Steve Lawson - NYC  
(back) Subject: RE: The Organs of Liverpool, England From: "Robert Bell" <bobbell@optonline.net> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:10:33 -0500   Thank you Steve. A very intresting site. Have a healthy and Happy New Year. Bob   _____   From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of OrganNYC@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 7:46 PM To: PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu; pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: The Organs of Liverpool, England     Dear colleagues, Many of you may be interested to learn of an excellent website put = together by Daniel Bishop which features the 3 large and notable organs in = Liverpool, England. The link to this website is http://www.liverpoolorgans.co.uk. My sole visit to Liverpool in the mid-80s found St. George's Hall to be closed for much-needed repairs, so I was unable to see or hear that organ. =   Included on this website are the specifications, histories, and photos of: Liverpool Anglican Cathedral - Henry Willis (1923) Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral - J.W. Walker (1967) St. George's Hall - "Father" Willis (1845) Happy New Year to All! Steve Lawson - NYC  
(back) Subject: Running Rampant in Sanctuary From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:32:52 -0600   Hello, Monte, et al:   > I am not a parent, but I don't see why parents let children run rampant in > the sanctuary. . . . .   Several years ago, we had a clutch of young boys (14-16 years old) who assisted the church administrator with physical furniture arrangements for Sunday evening services.   These boys were assembled, instructed on what went where, and sent off to do it. When they finished, with extra time on their hands, they entertained themselves in several ways. One was throwing a ball around the room to each other.   One day they were so engaged, throwing a football, that they got carried away. The football was thrown wildly beyond the reach of the intended receiver, and hit the 16-foot Pedal Posaune CCC pipe. It was knocked loose from its mooring and fell forward, stopping on the lip on the back side of the proscenium arch.   When I arrived that evening, I went into action immediately. I climbed up on the Great/Pedal windchest on the east side (a matching windchest for portions of Great/Pedal also was on the west side), and carefully gathered the pipe and handed it down to safety. I was not responsible for maintenance and tuning at that time. We transported the pipe to the organ curator, and he checked it carefully and adjusted it before reinstalling it.   I was at the church early one Sunday evening, and the organist said, "Dick, what's causing that B-flat in the mixture to sound so awful. Listening for a moment, I replied, "It is out of tune." Again climbing onto the west side Great/Pedal windchest, I located the errant out-of-tune pipe. There was also a Super Ball lying close beside the mixture. I tapped the tuning sleeve up and the mixture settle back in tune. The organist was alert enough to recognize that a pipe doesn't suddenly decide to go radically out of tune, and inquired, "Any idea what caused it?"   I held up the Super Ball and showed it to her. She was not aware how the teenagers played in the room on Sunday afternoons after they completed the furniture arrangements for the Sunday evening service, . . . but she understood that I had found the source of the detuned pipe.   The teenagers enjoyed themselves, and usually peformed a much needed service for the administrators. However, two balls thrown errantly had impacted some pipes with adverse results.   There is much more to this story, for one of the boys became a thorn in my side by changing things in the sound system, just to see me rush around diagnosing problems at the last minute. When the kid went away to college, all such quirky behavioral problems went away, too. So, I knew which kid was causing the problems.   Even so, much of this is normal behavior among teenaged boys.   F. Richard Burt     ..      
(back) Subject: New Year! From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 00:02:35 -0600   Happy New Year, Pipechatters!   Alicia Zeilenga