PipeChat Digest #5062 - Friday, January 7, 2005
 
RE: PipeChat Digest #5060 - 01/06/05
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Octopods???
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
Re: Oceans of Strings
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
Re: Octopods???
  by "Bob Elms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Strings and such
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Oceans of strings
  by "Stephen Best" <stevebest@usadatanet.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #5060 - 01/06/05
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: PipeChat Digest #5060 - 01/06/05
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re:  Oceans of Strings
  by "Kenneth Potter" <swell_shades@yahoo.com>
Claude Balbastre
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
RE: Oceans of Strings
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Oceans of strings
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Oceans of Strings
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Oceans of strings
  by "Stephen Best" <stevebest@usadatanet.net>
Re: Oceans of strings
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
 

(back) Subject: RE: PipeChat Digest #5060 - 01/06/05 From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:30:34 +1300   >ABSOLUTELY. It's been said, and truly so, "More souls have been saved with chimes and vox humana than any other stops in the organ."   Well, maybe in some cultures. For my part, I know of no New Zealand organ that has chimes on it - not a single one. And I know of only about 6 or 7 that have a Vox Humana stop. I have two Voxes for my home organ - one is 3/4" at CC and the other is 3" at CC. I got one rank as a gift and the = other cost me $5, so it's clear that neither Chimes not Voxes save anyone in = this country.   >I feel sorry to those who have posted "aspersions" against this type of registration, falling just short of condemning it as "The Devil's Work." What sad nonsense! People who cannot indulge occasionally in some sentimentality on the organ really puzzle me. I'll just leave it at that and you can fill in the rest of my usual sort of rant for yourselves   You're referring to me and my comments. I'm not offended at all, but I can assure you that sentimentality of the kind of sound you are proposing is just sick-making to me. If I want a WurliTzer sound, I'll go to the 3/16 = in a theatre some 5 mins. away by car from my home, but I'd never want to = hear those sorts of sound in a church organ. I'd infinitely rather spend the = same amount of money on other ranks.   How do I puzzle you? Because my culture doesn't correspond exactly with yours? Because what I see as appropriate in worship is different? Because what I try to do with the organ is very different? Or not these thoughts = but something different again? You've got me curious.   Certainly I'd never use the term you use, "the Devil's work". I can = describe something as being revolting mush without even thinking of your phrase. = For my part, I don't even want to use an expression like "the Devil's work" as it just doesn't come to mind when speaking of sentimentality in music.   There seem to be a number of threads we could explore here.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Octopods??? From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:48:05 -0500   I'm jumping in late, but who's building octopods? (which I'm assuming = refers to organs with too many 8' stops). Slush is in, yes, but I think the pendulum is in the middle... organs are being built with an excellent = balance of upperwork and foundations.   Andy   On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:53:37 -0600, Daniel Hancock wrote > Ross writes: > > After many years of working > for better design and better instruments, some of us would not be > at all willing to be dragged back into stuff that belongs in the theatre/cinema. > The increasing love affair with octopods and structureless musical > garbage is not something I'd want to be responsible for, at all, ever. > >   A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Oceans of Strings From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:54:47 -0500   A perversion of what the organ is meant to be doing? What is the organ = meant to be doing? Who has the authority to decide that? The organ has been = used for a lot of things besides worship, and worship has involved a lot of = things besides organs.   What you mean is, its not what _you're_ used to, and therefore you don't = like it, or anyone who does.   Andy > > Ross wrote: > > Yes, yes, yes, I do, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Anglicans did not > invent this > slush, I'm certain of that. It really does, to me, sound revolting > and a > perversion of what the organ is meant to be doing. I cannot > imagine it in > worship. . . >   A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Octopods??? From: "Bob Elms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:50:04 +0800   Who can afford to build an octopod these days? Noone in this country I = would think at the price of 8' pipework. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Octopods???     > I'm jumping in late, but who's building octopods? (which I'm assuming > refers > to organs with too many 8' stops). Slush is in, yes, but I think the > pendulum is in the middle... organs are being built with an excellent > balance > of upperwork and foundations. > > Andy > > On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:53:37 -0600, Daniel Hancock wrote >> Ross writes: >> >> After many years of working >> for better design and better instruments, some of us would > not be >> at all willing to be dragged back into stuff that belongs in > the theatre/cinema. >> The increasing love affair with octopods and structureless > musical >> garbage is not something I'd want to be responsible for, at > all, ever. >> >> > > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service > PO Box 111 > Burlington, VT 05402 > (802)578-3936 > Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 6/01/2005 > >       -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 6/01/2005    
(back) Subject: Strings and such From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 06:53:04 -0600   Let's not, inasmuch as the discussion is seeming to degenerate into a lot of diatribes of personal opinions and heated exchanges. I've already had my full moon this month in court.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of TheShieling   [major snippage]   There seem to be a number of threads we could explore here.        
(back) Subject: Oceans of strings From: "Stephen Best" <stevebest@usadatanet.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 08:44:15 -0500       TheShieling wrote:   >>You're referring to me and my comments. I'm not offended at all, but I = can >>assure you that sentimentality of the kind of sound you are proposing is >>just sick-making to me. If I want a WurliTzer sound, I'll go to the 3/16 = in >>a theatre some 5 mins. away by car from my home, but I'd never want to = hear >>those sorts of sound in a church organ. I'd infinitely rather spend the = same >>amount of money on other ranks. >>   I'm glad Ross included the above paragraph, especially the part that says this is "the kind of sound you are proposing is just sick-making to me." The last two words are of critical importance: "to me." What's "sick-making" to Ross may create a deeply religious experience for someone else. I am always troubled when posters assume that what's right for them individually is right for all of us collectively. I see a lot of that attitude on the lists lately.   Steve Best in Utica, NY      
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5060 - 01/06/05 From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:40:16 -0800   >"Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> wrote, > >=3D-> Charlie fails to mention why organbuilders design instruments to >be capable of providing full slush combinations. (the chimes too, >for that matter, >which should preferably make an occasional entrance in any slushy >performance) It makes bluehaired little old spinster ladies 'pee >their pews in glee'. Then they write BIG FAT checks to the >organ/music fund...! ;-) ;-) ;-) <-=3D   This makes me think of the French composer/organist Balbastre. I understand people came to church just to hear him play, never mind the service. I read he got into trouble with the Clergy over that.   John V  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5060 - 01/06/05 From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:58:41 -0600   Good Morning, Charlie and Tim, et al: > =3D-> Charlie fails to mention why organbuilders design > instruments to be capable of providing full slush > combinations. (the chimes too, for that matter, > which should preferably make an occasional entrance in any > slushy performance) It makes bluehaired little old spinster > ladies 'pee their pews in glee'. Then they write BIG FAT > checks to the organ/music fund...! ;-) ;-) ;-) <-=3D My earliest hero was Frank Wichlac, a real pipe organ man who finished his career as tonal director for Saville Organ Corporation. While installing a new III/42 for me, Frank described the celestes as "music to give by." > ABSOLUTELY. It's been said, and truly so, "More souls have > been saved with chimes and vox humana than any other stops > in the organ." See? Frank was right on. <grins> F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Re: Oceans of Strings From: "Kenneth Potter" <swell_shades@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 06:25:41 -0800 (PST)   Well, Ross's comments about strings have certainly set off a firestorm! I'm afraid I would not last two days in his church. I would get his one warning on my first Sunday, and would soon be packing up for happier times in celeste-land. In America, we love our strings and voxes and all that stuff. Not a steady diet of them, but for adding color and variety nothing is better. Wasn't it Virgil Fox (not one of my heroes, but he did often get it right) who said something like: "More souls have been saved with Celeste's and Vox Humana's than any other stops." I think I've heard Fred Swann quote him on that.   Ross claims that there are only a handful of strings in the UK, but I don't think that statement is anywhere near true, unless you limit your search to dreary little parish organs of the more limited variety. Certainly I recall hearing celestes in most of the great cathedral organs in the UK. There are very few celestes in the Netherlands, just not liked much there, though the Adema in St Bavo RK Cathedral in Haarlem certainly has them. The old Dutch organs have their own variety of slush that is just lovely. They definitely make great use of the tremulant there. There are string and gemshorn celestes (schwebungs) liberally sprinkled throughout the larger organs in Germany. I can't think of a large organ in France outside of the old historic early instruments that doesn't take pride in its strings. Some of the very oldest celestes are the Voce Umanae in early Italian organs. Those are usually principal ranks tuned celeste.   I know that celestes are a relatively new introduction to organs, generally within the last hundred years or so, but the liberal use of string tone goes way back beyond Bach's time. One of the joys of playing the organ is the broad palate of tone color at ones fingertips. Being able to melt a service improvisation down to lovely string and/or flute celestes before it fades away is just magical. The single dulciana without celeste is just too dull and anticlimactic for words to describe.   Ken   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to = revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation, It will = preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been = built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national = morality, and the family as the basis of national life." --Adolph Hitler, February 1, 1933 (what goes around comes around)  
(back) Subject: Claude Balbastre From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:28:50 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 10:40 AM Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5060 - 01/06/05     > >"Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> wrote, > > > >=3D-> Charlie fails to mention why organbuilders design instruments to > >be capable of providing full slush combinations. (the chimes too, > >for that matter, > >which should preferably make an occasional entrance in any slushy > >performance) It makes bluehaired little old spinster ladies 'pee > >their pews in glee'. Then they write BIG FAT checks to the > >organ/music fund...! ;-) ;-) ;-) <-=3D > > This makes me think of the French composer/organist Balbastre. I > understand people came to church just to hear him play, never mind > the service. I read he got into trouble with the Clergy over that. > The Archbishop of Paris did twice ban Balbastre from the organ loft at = Notre Dame at Christmas, but the reason for this public safety. So many people (the church holds several thousands) were coming to listen to Balbastre's playing, that there was fear of public disorder. This was the period just before the Reign of Terror and clergy and churches were in danger of = attack from the mob.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: RE: Oceans of Strings From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:42:10 +1300   >A perversion of what the organ is meant to be doing? What is the organ meant to be doing?   I do not believe that the organ in a church is meant to provide, and here = I use someone else's word, "sentimentalty". That, to me, is not an enhancer = of worship.   >Who has the authority to decide that?   I believe the clergy do, to be brutally honest. At least in the Anglican church, the Vicar is responsible for all that happens within the church, = and that includes the music.   >The organ has been used for a lot of things besides worship, and worship has involved a lot of things besides organs.   Very true, and no objection to that. People can do with organs as they = wish, and I'd encourage them to do so, outside worship.   >What you mean is, its not what _you're_ used to, and therefore you don't like it, or anyone who does.   Andy, that is not at all what I meant. As for dislike of someone for doing something I'm not used to, this has to be a joke, right? Disliking someone for their outlook on strings and Celestes? I do hope that's not meant to = be a serious idea.   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: Oceans of strings From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:54:48 +1300   >I'm glad Ross included the above paragraph, especially the part that says this is "the kind of sound you are proposing is just sick-making to me." The last two words are of critical importance: "to me."   Of course.   >What's "sick-making" to Ross may create a deeply religious experience for someone else. I am always troubled when posters assume that what's right for them individually is right for all of us collectively.   It's also quite possible that the stuff we are referring to is sick-making for other people, too, but in some churches in the USA that no one complains. It's also possible that those folk just quietly go to a church, or a service, where that stuff is not used. Or they may quit altogether. Several times, I've seen people change parishes because of the music and they have told me they have not told their previous vicar or organist why because it might hurt them.   Sometimes it can be very explicit. The best organist in this parish, with = a number of commercially-successful recordings to his credit, and nationally known here in NZ as a stunningly-good musician, utterly refuses to play at any other service but the 8am one, as he says the stuff at 10am makes him feel ill. I understand exactly what he means as if the sounds made by the "musicians" at 10am was at all services here, I'd quietly go to another church myself.   Now I know this sounds very personal, and it is. I'd not make a fuss in leaving a place because of the music, not wanting to cause a fuss because = of how feel and not wanting to hurt people who sincerely make that kind of music.   The corollary, of course, is that people will positively decide to go to a place where the music suits them, bypassing the church nearest them. Clergy-bods, of course, and I'm one of them, don't want to hear this, but it's true.   I should stress that I'm most certainly not out to offend anyone on this List, and have no dislike for anyone on it, whatever their views. How I feel, though, is as important to me as of course how they feel is = important to other people. On international Lists we are bound to have strong disagreements from time to time, coming across things that we would never have seen as cultural issues. I hope that's one of the reasons we are here = - to share in the cross-cultural clash of ideas and outlooks.   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: Oceans of Strings From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 04:00:37 +1300   >Ross claims that there are only a handful of strings in the UK, but I don't think that statement is anywhere near true, unless you limit your search to dreary little parish organs of the more limited variety.   No, I did not claim there were few strings in the UK, but that there are very few string choruses. Even major organs in major buildings often have just the one Celeste, a Salicional or Gamba and its Celeste. Choruses of = the things are very rare indeed.   >Being able to melt a service improvisation down to lovely string and/or flute celestes before it fades away is just magical. The single dulciana without celeste is just too dull and anticlimactic for words to describe.   I think your first sentence here is very much a cultural outlook. The = second seems to imply, to me, that your Dulciana ranks are not what I'd expect = from a stop labelled Dulciana. In my culture, and I would generalise for the UK as well, there are few enclosed Dulcianas, and that the best ones are = always unenclosed, usually on the Great. The Dulciana tone that I know, of all periods, is not a string stop and suffers badly from being enclosed.   Cultural differences, eh? You bet.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Oceans of strings From: "Stephen Best" <stevebest@usadatanet.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 10:04:02 -0500       TheShieling wrote:   > >The corollary, of course, is that people will positively decide to go to = a >place where the music suits them, bypassing the church nearest them. >Clergy-bods, of course, and I'm one of them, don't want to hear this, but >it's true. > Indeed I believe this to be the case. We have churches of every musical persuasion in my area. Everything very "high" Anglican tradition to those which have discarded organs and uses praise bands exclusively. Those for whom the Anglican tradition in all its glory speaks most clearly wouldn't be caught dead at a "praise band" church. And those for whom Christian contemporary music is most meaninful would be uncomfortable in a traditional Anglican worship setting. Where I see trouble in my area is when a church with more traditional music decides it must compete with a contrasting style already done superbly by another institution, the result usually being that its own style of music ministry is diluted and no style of worship ends up being "done" well.   As for the "oceans of strings" style that started this whole discussion -- yes, there are such churches in my area, and there are people who truly find that style is what they prefer as part of worship. These folks wouldn't be happy with anything else, and they indeed seek out that which touches them most deeply, even if it is for some considered "sentimentality."   Steve Best in Utica, NY      
(back) Subject: Re: Oceans of strings From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 10:31:08 -0500   I have said this before on these lists, - I never can hear a string sound on a pipe organ!   In my view, a noise generated by a pipe being blown by wind pressure, cannot ever be said to imitate a horse haired bow being dragged across a gut string! There isn't even a similarity of any sort.   But then, I am not an organist, and can never kid myself that there is a wonderful "string" section of any kind. I am sure that I cannot be the only person who likes listening to organs, who finds it unbelievable!   Say it like it is, - that only electronic organs ever approach the sound = of strings, - and even then, only approach the sound, - to get real string tone, one has to have strings and bows to play them!   Cheers,   Bob Conway   I am not ducking! It is only too obvious to me that the notion of having = a "string" tone within a pipe organ is only in the pipe organist's mind!   Bob