PipeChat Digest #5085 - Friday, January 14, 2005
 
Harmonic flutes, Part II...
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
Legitimacy of word usage....
  by "Young Organists Online" <youngorganistsonline@hotmail.com>
RE: Richer Content In Praise Songs
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: "so much good renewal music"
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Johannus Opus 1405
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Praise Music vs Organ (Medium)
  by "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Richer Content In Praise Songs
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Praise Music vs Organ (Medium)
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Richer Content In Praise Songs (renewal)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Harmonic flutes, Part II...
  by "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com>
Old, new, good, less good?
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: "Praise Songs" as heard by an outside observer
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Harmonic flutes, Part II...
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Praise Music Vs. Hymns
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Richer Content In Praise Songs (renewal)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Legitimacy of word usage....
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Legitimacy of word usage....
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Legitimacy of word usage....
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Legitimacy of word usage....
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
Re: Legitimacy of word usage....
  by "Young Organists Online" <youngorganistsonline@hotmail.com>
 

(back) Subject: Harmonic flutes, Part II... From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:47:23 -0800 (PST)   Greetings!   And yes... while the subject of Harmonic Flutes has been brought up, would some of you please comment on the following:   In the early part of the 20th century, many smaller pipe organs had only one 4' rank on the Swell... it was often a Harmonic Flute. Can you tell me why?   I think if I was limited to one 4' rank on the Swell I would have preferred a 4' Violina or at least a 4' Gemshorn...   Best wishes to all....     Morton Belcher fellow list member...       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: Legitimacy of word usage.... From: "Young Organists Online" <youngorganistsonline@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:31:01 -0600   I just joined not too long ago, but I was somewhat confused by the banning =   that took place... His comments didn't seem rude toward me, what do you = all think??? Is he banned now???   Thanks,   Landon   _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! =   http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/    
(back) Subject: RE: Richer Content In Praise Songs From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:37:59 -0800 (PST)     Jonathan O. Wrote   First of all, let me say my heart goes out to you who have seen your worship style obliterated by a new pastor, or one just returned from the latest church growth conference...     This is also a good point that Jonathan makes. Maybe some of us that serve = as Sacred Musicians should attend so that we can have a talk with them. = This is where the AGO's Clergy/Musicians liason section would come in = handy. The actual name escapes me now. There needs to be stronger = relations on the seminary level. The seminarians need to have intense = classes in Sacred Music, IMHO. They should have the composers of the = tasteful sacred music for workshops. If the pastors and seminarians are = exposed to the really good stuff, then there might be some hope of = exposing worshippers to rich texts.   a ?: How is it that they find out about all of the Maranatha music and the = other manufactured "Muzak"?     --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 What will yours do?
(back) Subject: Re: "so much good renewal music" From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:56:00 -0800 (PST)   OK Maybe the word "renewal" music is not correct. Let's say "fresh" Music = that enriches worship and may assist in diversifying styles and promote a = worship setting to where there might be retention. Check out the music of Mr. Glenn Burleigh www.glenmusik.com His music is loveley. His setting "If My People Which are Called by My = name will Just Humble Themselves and Pray!" Is a fun stateley piece which = he actually had the organ join in the accompaniment at the Summit in = Charlotte. At the final service, we sang his "Blessed Quietness", that is = in a gentle E Flat Setting, and is scored for Orchestra and kepboards, I = think. We had the orchestra join us at Summit while singing it. Dr. Diane White Has a very beautiful set of music. One, Sweet Meditation, = is a stately march in E major where the Sopranos have this beautiful = sweetness Singing "Bless the Lord, O My Soul...My Meditation of Him is = Sweet...SO Sweet!" A Nice piece for Advent Raymond Wise has some things. At the conference we sang his "It Happend on = Calvary" and the flute joined in with the other instruments. Such a = dramatic setting in G Minor that moves along in a slow aria style. We also did Undine Smith Moore's setting of He is King of Kings, published = as Festive Procession for Organ and Brass in the GIA Afr. Amer. Music = Series. Sopranos go to a high A flat! Vocal parts for all the music is SATB or some true setting of voice parts. = The above people have degrees from the great schools of Music. Burleigh = from U of Oklahoma where he majored in Pianoi and took secondary organ = with Mildred Andrews and has cute stories about how "Miss Andrews tried SO = hard to get (him) to be an organ major!"   Theres a lot out there. We actually brought home goodies from Charlotte of = all the anthems we sang, plus more. I did not know about it until I was = bi***** at to attend the conference. Now, I have the resources. TDH   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
(back) Subject: Re: Johannus Opus 1405 From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:01:35 -0500   At 02:37 PM 2005-01-14, you wrote: >What's the Johannus 1405 like? > >Comments in general? > >What does it sound like? > >What's it worth second hand? > >I've been told that it's got a 32-note pedalboard, parallel and concave, >but not radiating. > >Robian.   Ian,   3 manual lighted tab, from about 12 years ago.   Sound will not be as good as newer ones. Sample resolution will be lower. I don't think it is at all voiceable.   What is it worth - A lot less than a new one.   32 note BDO pedalboard, indicates it is possibly a European spec'd = instrument.   Arie V.      
(back) Subject: Praise Music vs Organ (Medium) From: "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:02:15 -0600   Appreciation for all of the comments, and various approaches in addressing the pervasion of Praise Music in churches. Some have addressed the textual content, and others have addressed the musical content. Permit me to express my experiences from both sides.   I=92ve been playing organ in smaller churches, missions and other meetings =   regularly since the early 70=92s. By the late 80=92s, Praise Music was overtaking traditional hymns, and praise bands were replacing organs. This was beyond my comfort level both doctrinally as well as musically. In addition, we relocated from NYC to Colorado, where the trend was towards a less formal and less traditional approach in worship services. I figured the informality of music was here to stay. Praise Bands were IN; Organs were OUT; and I felt like a Greek out of Brooklyn! (Fish out of water.) Well, the demand for organists and for hymn playing seemed to be the waning. I was musically discouraged, and just about gave up the organ.   What if music was not an absolute? What if it is OK that music changes from era to era, and culture to culture? Was I was old-fashioned and trying to defend =91organ music=92 to a generation who couldn=92t care = less? Was I simply trying to perpetuate my own interest? Without formal music theory training, to argue Pro or Con any type of music was beyond my ability. I would rather expend my energies in what would not change according to the whims of society, and that was the doctrines of our faith. Therefore, I concentrated my energies in preaching and teaching.   I soon recognized that by eliminating the hymns, we loose the doctrinal proclamation found in the texts of these hymns. When we have congregations were sound preaching is lacking and solid music is missing, we breed a generation of people who become deficient in the elements of faith and practice. The content of our music is derived from and reflects the doctrines we teach. With respect to all denominations and religious groups represented by this list, the textual content of our hymns and anthems should be based on Scripture, the Torah, other creeds and proclamations of the religious group in which you fellowship.   The integrity of traditional hymns and music further emphasizes a sacredness and reverence in the worship services. In the Old Testament, Leviticus 10:10, there are the injunctions for us to place a difference between the common and the uncommon; the holy and the unholy. There is a difference between being in a church or synagogue, and being in a sports arena. Of course! Music in a House of Worship must be distinctively different.   Having missed the formality and reverence that our music should foster, about 5 years ago I made a decision to return to the organ and encourage the return of the hymns and music of our tradition. Consider this: The message we proclaim in word, is reflected in music. Music is the expression of our deepest emotions, speaks to a different part of the brain and heart, and should be in agreement in both content and in form to what we believe. My feeling is that music reinforces the spoken and written Word, and does not compete against it.   My real appreciation and compliments to this group. In spite of our differences, there is a unique bond among us. The information passed along ranging from technique, construction, and musical content is equivalent to countless courses, and years of experience.   Thanks for enduring this long post.     David E   David Evangelides Colorado Springs, Colorado      
(back) Subject: Re: Richer Content In Praise Songs From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:03:15 EST   Shirley wrote:   "Recently, our church held two focus groups".   Sometimes, such groups are called by a committee for advisory purposes. Sometimes, they are used to attempt to avoid difficult conversations or = difficult decisions on the part of leadership. The same with "surveys" of the congregation.   This reminds me of experiences I had while working in a denomination (not = my own) with strict congregational polity and a very loose national church structure. To cut to the chase, the result of a congregational survey was = a split in the congregation over music, theology, worship, and, ultimately, the pastor--whom I believe is now enjoying his D. Min. by selling cars. That, = apparently, was worth getting an amateur praise band and a smaller congregation. The upside is that his small children are now benefitting from his higher = income as a car salesman. I suppose the Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways.   I cannot site page and chapter, but I do recall that in Kenneth Haugk's "Antagonists in the Church" it is recommended NOT to do focus groups and = polls over potentially volatile issues. Most mainline denominations have a congregational polity which includes elected representation to a Board/Council/Session/Vestry, etc. There are also committees one can serve = on. One can also vote to make one's voice heard. I tend to agree with Haugk's warning that going outside =   normal congregational polity in order to "take a poll" almost always = results in devastating and polarizing results.   In my opinion, having a "focus group" undermines, rather than strenghens, = the congregational or semi-congregational polity enjoyed by most mainstream (Protestant) churches in this country. Better I think to get on the agenda = for the appropriate committee or board AFTER having an appropriate conversation = with those in charge. Call me old-fashioned.   Cheers, Bill H.  
(back) Subject: Re: Praise Music vs Organ (Medium) From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:19:44 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   That was such a nice post from David!   I'm not sure we should be self-satisfied in reponse, but I suppose we DO CARE ENOUGH to write so much.   I personally do expect to see, in my own lifetime, a proper reconciliation of science and traditional faith, and for many people, any sort of faith is virtually impossible.   My heartfelt hope, is that religion (and religious music) will begin to concentrate on what can be agreed upon, and not perpetuate the mythology of a past tradition.   Modernity starts with knowledge rather than jingles!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- David Evangelides <davide@theatreorgans.com> wrote:   > Appreciation for all of the comments, and various > approaches in > addressing the pervasion of Praise Music in > churches   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Richer Content In Praise Songs (renewal) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:22:10 EST   Renewal   Now there's a word for you. What does it mean? What should it mean? The RC church was in true renewal, promoted by St. Pius X somewhere around 1910. What was renewed? Gregorian Chant, and Polyphony. Why? Because of slippage and sloppage in musical choices became so banal, everyone was falling all over themselves using stage versions of operatic Masses which had no place in the Mass. It became a concert, while entertaining, was totally out of place in a liturgical service. Important parts such as Graduals, Tracts were left out. Why? No time to sing the important stuff. The church consistant with Liturgical Values called a halt and renewed the tried and true simple, pious music. People, being people get out of balance. Its long past time for another balance check.   Isn't it amazing? Tobacco and cigarettes get banned but it's OK to puff the "magic dragon" and you've got to be sick to do it. ACLU says its OK, common decency and the law says don't do it or you're in trouble. My, how the morals have been twisted. Ten Commandments out CCM in. That's quite a combination and it should tell you something you already know. Hello, we are in deep trouble. You used to hear a lot about The Tribulation, now we are smack dab in the middle of it, people don't recognize it. The church in all its forms is under attack and we seem to be participating with inappropriate music forms for one. See if you can add to the list. Pastors preaching on whatever suits their fancy and may have nothing to do with the Gospel at all. The reason for a one or a three year cycle is that the major parts of the Bible are placed in the ears of the congregation every year. I'm sure everyone can cite abuses if you really think about it.   Food for thought, if you all are still thinking   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Harmonic flutes, Part II... From: "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:45:08 -0500   Morton wrote: >In the early part of the 20th century, many smaller >pipe organs had only one 4' rank on the Swell... it >was often a Harmonic Flute. Can you tell me why?   My sister's 1910 M=F6ller tracker with TP pedal (three great, three swell,= =20 one pedal rank) had this setup. It added brightness to the full organ. With= =20 the 4' StoG coupler, it was quite a sound.   My understanding of harmonic anythings is that they prominently sound the=20 second harmonic. On a 4' HF this would give a 2' tone and add brightness,=20 n'est-ce pas? The online Encyclopedia of Organ Stops says the pipes are=20 double-length. The 4' HF on the M=F6ller was at 4' length, so I'm not sure= =20 what the encyclopedia is talking about. (To me, it is saying a 4' HF should= =20 be 8' in length, but in my experience, this has not been the case.)   Cole Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio, USA     -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.12 - Release Date: 1/14/2005      
(back) Subject: Old, new, good, less good? From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:49:28 EST   Having followed the thread on praise music, etc, I am reminded of an essay =   written (but not published) in the 20's by Virgil Thompson on the subject = of "Gospel Hymns".   Apparently, he took a critical look at a contemporary evangelical hymnal = and broke the contents down into categories (I'm paraphrasing here), stating = how many hymns were about the divinity of Christ, Salvation through the Blood, = etc. I remember "One refers to a small church in the wildwood and one is about mother". The remainder of the hymns (and these are Victorian gospel hymns) =   "expressed a repressed carnal desire for the person of Christ" or some = very similar language.   He then went on to illustrate his point using quotes from these hymns with =   Freudian associations such as "garden", "alone", "dew", "roses", etc. I = can see why it wasn't published at that time--better to say this poetry was = pietistic and anti-corporate worship in nature as well as sentimental, rather than making a sexual analogy.   That said, when observe the extreme personal pietism of some Victorian = (and to be sure, older) hymnody and some "praise music", I am simply remided = why I am a catholic. Clearly, this stuff floats some people's boats. I don't = care for it, nor do I find much of it to be sound theologically and musically; then =   again, I could say the same about "In the Garden". Look how long that's = endured. It was my mother's favorite hymn until I gave her the book on Virgil Thompson.   I suspect Bach (who made use of familiar chorales, yes, but those were = heard and sung in church) will be battling with the heirs of latter-day pietism = for a long time to come. In the late 19th century it was 12/8 metre and "whispering in my ear"; today, it's "God is So Totally, Like, Wicked = Awesome" and with heavy chords on 1 and 4. Who am I to judge? I play plagal cadences for a living. Anyone have a good double-fugue on "Lord, I lift your name on = high"?   With tongue half-in-cheek,   Bill H. Boston.  
(back) Subject: Re: "Praise Songs" as heard by an outside observer From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:00:17 -0600   Seb wrote, in part:   >What leaves me disappointed (and impatient or offended) by mainstream >"praise" music is the fact that I find the "songs" indistinguishable from = one >another. At first (and often last) blush, they appear to rely on a = steady, >monotonous beat and simplistic harmonic progressions to affect the = listeners' mental >state, but I am consistently left unmoved. > to which I would observe that, to mine own ear, what is usually called "contemporary worship music", is nothing so much as the church succombing to the niche marketing concepts that drive "free" entertainment. If one takes the time, and makes the effort to listen to the various music broadcast stations going up and down the radio spectrum, one finds that each station has a narrowly defined, easily identifiable sound, and character, and chacterization, which is designed to appeal to one narrow segment of the population. And because these principles are manipulated in the service of mammon, and deliver somewhat predictable results, especially when joined with highly charismatic personalities, I think that some in the Church, who fall victim to the temptation to measure by the numbers, are easily taken in, and lose sight of the fact that strength comes from diversity.   ns      
(back) Subject: Re: Harmonic flutes, Part II... From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:03:08 EST   See this month's edition of The American Organist. There's an article on = the construction of the harmonic flute.  
(back) Subject: Re: Praise Music Vs. Hymns From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:07:02 -0600   Dennis wrote:   >I don't know the original source of the below, nor if it has been posted >here before, but it is a humorous look at the differences between hymns = and >praise music. > and I would note that I don't know the "original source", either, but whilst browsing in an antiquarian bookseller some time ago, found the identical story, with "anthem" substituted for "praise chorus", in a joke book published in the 1920's.   ns  
(back) Subject: Re: Richer Content In Praise Songs (renewal) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:07:10 EST   Vatican II and its perceived Glastnos should be looked at seriously. If taken seriously, its a renewal based upon Pius X's pronouncements. How has it gone in practice? Keep the evil one out, but that doesn't seem to be resonating, You fill in the blanks. In the spirit of sophistry we have actually gone in the wrong direction. Some call it the "SPIRIT of VATICAN II." Is it HOLY? Definitely not! Our chosen instrument suffers being taken to the dumpster, worthy though it is because the smoke of Satan has entered the church by of all people Paul VI. Piano is now considered more worthy than a liturgical pipe organ. Why? Well we need rhythm, or do we? I know this is hard hitting, but the persuasion is away from considering God and His worship, to considerations to inconsistent human values. Euphoria is just that euphoria, emotion and nothing else. Is that what we want to present to the Lord as worship? I hope not. People today have put their finger all over the problem in their posts. FOCUS yes focus groups no. Focus groups are very political, stick your finger in the air and see which way the wind is blowing. That's not honest, now is it? We need to be steadfast, not blowing in the wind.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Legitimacy of word usage.... From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:10:03 -0600   Young Organists Online wrote:   > I just joined not too long ago, but I was somewhat confused by the > banning that took place... His comments didn't seem rude toward me, > what do you all think??? Is he banned now???   I have seen this fellow post recently in a couple of different lists, and his tendency is towards beligerance and inciviility. I suspect that it was not necessarily only his comments on the list which got him banned, but the fact that others were aware of the slope he invariably seems to head down.   ns  
(back) Subject: Re: Legitimacy of word usage.... From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:20:22 EST   His style is unique. What begins as innocent inquisitiveness segues rapidly to a = contemptuous sense of entitlement, requiring immediate responses, outlandish favors, = and an unquestioning affirmation of all that he avers. We are all human, and do not always behave as "charm school = graduates." Likewise, list members often misinterpret posts because the printed word = lacks inflection (formal tone is most frequently mistaken for anger). Sometimes, = it is merely misunderstanding. But not in this case.   SMG  
(back) Subject: Re: Legitimacy of word usage.... From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:36:11 -0800 (PST)   Hmm i missed that post     Noel Stoutenburg <mjolnir@ticnet.com> wrote: Young Organists Online wrote:   > I just joined not too long ago, but I was somewhat confused by the > banning that took place... His comments didn't seem rude toward me, > what do you all think??? Is he banned now???   I have seen this fellow post recently in a couple of different lists, and his tendency is towards beligerance and inciviility. I suspect that it was not necessarily only his comments on the list which got him banned, but the fact that others were aware of the slope he invariably seems to head down.   ns   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:       From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
(back) Subject: Re: Legitimacy of word usage.... From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:36:23 -0600   Considering that "others" =3D "your Administrators" in this case, you = are absolutely correct.   --Tim :-)   At 05:10 PM 1/14/2005, Noel wrote: <snip> I suspect that it was not necessarily only his comments on the list which got him banned, but the fact that others were aware of the slope he invariably seems to head down.    
(back) Subject: Re: Legitimacy of word usage.... From: "Young Organists Online" <youngorganistsonline@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:56:06 -0600   I talked to him just a few minutes ago, he said that all he ever asked for =   (from Sebastian) was some help figuring out the average scales of several different French organ ranks, Montre, Flute Harmonique and others.... He never said anything about any outlandish favors....   Landon     >From: TubaMagna@aol.com >Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >To: pipechat@pipechat.org >Subject: Re: Legitimacy of word usage.... >Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:20:22 EST > >His style is unique. > What begins as innocent inquisitiveness segues rapidly to a >contemptuous >sense of entitlement, requiring immediate responses, outlandish favors, = and >an >unquestioning affirmation of all that he avers. > We are all human, and do not always behave as "charm school >graduates." >Likewise, list members often misinterpret posts because the printed word >lacks >inflection (formal tone is most frequently mistaken for anger). = Sometimes, >it >is merely misunderstanding. > But not in this case. > >SMG > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >   _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! =   http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/