PipeChat Digest #5089 - Saturday, January 15, 2005
 
Rehash and Short Memory
  by <Wdh2@aol.com>
Gloucester Cathedral and the Varhaug Church in Norway on Organs and Organ
  by "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
Re: Amy Grant and B.J. Thomas
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: you light up my eyes while waiting like a lover
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
Re: Legitimacy of word usage....
  by "Young Organists Online" <youngorganistsonline@hotmail.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #5086 - 01/14/05
  by "David Baker" <dgb137@mac.com>
RE: Legitimacy of word usage....
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Gloucester Cathedral and the Varhaug Church in Norway on Organs and O
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Re: *ADMIN POST* re: Tonal Styles
  by "Young Organists Online" <youngorganistsonline@hotmail.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Rehash and Short Memory From: <Wdh2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 05:36:46 EST   I thought I could continue to watch silently from the bleachers while this =   discussion of praise music, pro and con, continues, but it has occurred to = me that I must be one of a very few on this list old enough to have seen this = very same music fad pass about 30 years ago. It was called the "folk mass or = the guitar mass." IIRC, in some Catholic parishes, the formal anthem singing, hymnody, pipe organ music and the Latin were tossed out in favor of folk = styled masses which were more "relevant and congregationally centered," = encouraging the common participants to join in whereas the "other" style of music was just = for the choir and the celebrant and so obtuse and obscure that no one = understood what was being said or sung. This movement took root from the "Peter, Paul = and Mary" styled music of the 60's and was accompanied by the "Jesus movement" = and the churching of former hippies and flower children. They entered a = structure which seemed rigid and stiff to them, and accustomed to vociferous style = of the 60's rebellions and demonstrations, they demanded change and brought = with them the music of the street. We saw the inevitable death of this movement = in the latter 70's and early 80's but imagine my horror when first visiting = St. John the Divine, NYC in the late 70's, having seen pictures of the nave in = it's splendor, thousands of chairs in perfect alignment and knowing of the = massive Skinner, to have entered the great doors at the West end and seeing the = nave broken up into mini chapels with tacky felt banners on poles looking like = a Sesame Street art class explosion, and hearing the most terrifying music = since the theme from Jaws, the sound of guitars being played near the crossing.   Today, we have seen the rise of the praise band and it's accompanying = worship style. Unfortunately, it is a worship style that has functioned well in limited situations, but there is a mindset amongst pastors and church = boards that (1.) We must adopt the "new and fresh" in order to revive dead = congregations (Not once telling the painful truth about what KILLED the congregation in = the first place) (2) We have to do something to get the kids in church (We = never ask kids what they like, but we condescend to a low denominator to "attract" them) and finally (3) We expect the music ministry to do something it was = NEVER designed to do, that is to fill the pews and keep them full (If the crowd = drops off, it MUST be because the music is BAD) Unfortunately, this is a problem =   that transcends denomination, race and demographics. Several years ago, I = had a rare Sunday off and decided to visit a friend's church and hear someone = else play a service for a change. Living then in Baltimore City, I made the = trip down the parkway to DC and eventually arrived at National City Christian Church =   when Lawrence Schreiber was Organist Choirmaster. Lon had built a top = notch music program that included DC's only 5 manual Pipe organ, the 141rank = Moller and I was prepared to hear Lon "put the old girl through her paces." It = happened to be Memorial Day weekend and thousands of motorcyclists had descended = upon DC for the Rolling Thunder Rally so I arrived late for the 11am service. = Imagine my HORROR when entering the sanctuary and finding a Gospel choir stretched =   wall to wall with Hammond organ, drums and bass player. Turns out that = this was the choir from the home church of the former pastor of NCC, even so, it = was NOT what I expected to hear or see at NCC. There are THOUSANDS of places = where Gospel music can be heard, indeed, acoustically, NCC is NOT the best room = for Gospel music. Gospel music, Contemporary Christian Praise music, Christian = Folk and whatever other label we slap on it, these musical styles are NOT a universal panacea for congregations who have more profound and deep set = problems than empty pews on Sunday morning. Don't get me wrong, I have a distinct appreciation for many diverse styles of music and I can appreciate good = art form in whatever style it's presented, but I'm a firm believer in the scripture = that reminds us "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose = under the heaven." (Ecclesiastes 3:1) I am certain that this "experiment" with alternative worship styles = will soon run it's course and "water will find it's true level." In many of the =   settings that have radically changed the musical styles, there has been = such an outcry from those who TRULY support the church, that the traditional music = is being "slowly" phased back in. Recently, the pastor of a mega church in = the DC area was told that the elimination of elements of traditional worship in = his congregation would be "reversed" and that it was expected that the church = would reinstate the "essential elements" musically. This is a congregation with = a 3000 seat sanctuary and well over 8,000 members. They have a pipe organ = which was installed within the past 15yrs, two musicians drawing 6 figure = salaries and not ONE hymnal in the entire complex.   As for the discussion of hymn playing, those of us who were present in Los =   Angeles in 1999 for Fred Swann's "Organ Alive Conference" had the = opportunity to hear the late Catherine Crozier recount an experience she had with a = student who was playing for chapel service later that week. She inquired about his =   practice time and he ran off a short list of the literature he was = planning to play and she asked if he had practiced the hymns. He indicated that he = hadn't in a tone which might have "suggested" he didn't feel a need to practice "hymns." She replied, "I practice my hymns and I DO have some technique." =     Best Wishes,   Warren D Hood, II Upper Marlboro, Maryland  
(back) Subject: Gloucester Cathedral and the Varhaug Church in Norway on Organs and Organists Online From: "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:27:44 +0200   We have four new performances for you this week.       Firstly, recorded by David M. Patrick on the IV/58 Nicholson organ of Gloucester Cathedral, is a stunning performance of the Jules Grison "Toccata" This is the first time I have come across any of Grison's = music, but other than discovering that he was born in 1842 and died in 1896, thus =   making him a contemporary of Cesar Franck, I could find nothing out about him. His music is available in the OHS catalogue, but no details other = than the titles are given.       It is a work in the Boellmann/Gigout idiom, and when played like this = should make your hair stand on end. Beginning with echoes of the Toccata and = Fugue in D minor (JSB), it goes on to rewrite this favourite work in the French romantic idiom. A true fireworks special. Perhaps it's heard more often on =   the other side of the Atlantic? I expect some US list members can tell us.   David Patrick is also to be heard playing the Scherzo by Guilmant from the =   Vth Sonata. Another virtuoso performance!       The organ of Gloucester Cathedral, an instrument with a long and distinguished history going back to Thomas Dallam, passing amongst others through Snetzler, Father Willis' and Harrison and Harrison, up to a major rebuild by Hill, Norman and Beard in 1971 with Ralph Downes as consultant, =   is what the Royal Festival Hall organ might sound like in a decent = building. Downes' influence can be felt in the fiery reeds and the brilliant = mixtures. The most recent work was carried out by Nicholson & Co of Worcester in = 1999, a thorough clean and overhaul, which included the addition of a 32' = Bombarde and 32' "Cornet Separe" on the Pedals.       Moving over the channel to Norway, Jarle Fagerheim has sent us two recordings on the II/23 1959 Norsk-Harmoniumfabrikk Organ in the Varhaug Church in Norway. The chorale Prelude "Wachet auf! Ruft uns die Stimme" by =   Immanuel Faisst, and a composition of his own, a Chorale prelude on a traditional Norwegian hymn "Eg veit i himmerik ei borg". Jarle tells me = that this is intended as part of a set of variations he is writing on this = theme. The score is available in the SCORES section, both as a PDF file and mp3.       Perhaps I might give a mention to Jarle's younger brother, 13 year old = Tore Fagerheim, who, though not much interested in the world of organ's, has = made his first venture into the realms of movie making. He directs his best friend, Torstein Erga, who is 11, in a hilariously funny take-off of the MacGyver series - this is a link to the trailer http://i16site.moo.no/mac_small.avi It is 16 mb, so a high speed = connection is desirable. A remarkably professional production from another member of this talented family.       John Foss      
(back) Subject: Re: Amy Grant and B.J. Thomas From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:35:32 EST   >BTW, Glenda, did you know that Amy Grant's original background was the a >capella Church of Christ!   If I remember correctly, Amy Grant was a member of the Belmont church of Christ in Nashville, formely pastored by Don Finto. This congregation is = a "charismatic" congregation, and at the time that I lived in Nashville, = regularly had services using a "praise band" and many of the Contemporary Christian = artists were members there. Checking out the church's website, www.belmont.org, there is no mention of =   the association to the church of Christ movement and the church is now = known as "Belmont Church." You'll see on the website that the music there is all contemporary, except with the mention of one phrase that "historically our = church used a cappella singing." At least since the 1980s this church has been = using instruments in worship, but that's the freedom of a church that, while = tied to a movement or linked to other churches of the same faith tradition, is autonomous.     Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: you light up my eyes while waiting like a lover From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:47:04 -0600   At 11:12 PM 1/14/05, you wrote: >I want them to be capable of saving me from my depravity and lifting me = to >much higher realms of spiritual experience than just being my "lover" or >living in a spiritual relationship that is characterized as "it can't be >wrong when it feels so right."   Obviously you are not comfortable in our popular "Feel Good" society...which has infiltrated many so called Christian organizations making sacred organ music and liturgy obsolete. Fortunately = I found a thriving church which is consistently attracting new members because of its traditional service. It initially attracted me as it has a pipe organ, which is a rare commodity in the immediate area. We also have a contemporary service which =   I never attend...all the praise songs sound the same to me...and for some reason they think they need to reach the pain threshold with high decibel levels.   Jon C. Habermaas        
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:58:51 -0500   Speaking of "Here I Am, Lord" in the current light of our praise music discussion, I think it epitomizes some of the bad worship concepts which we've let run rampant. And, like all of us in this discussion, there are certain things that "set me off", so forgive me in advance.   I guess I'm pretty flexible on the style of music, but what I really hate is "worship as bad theater." I think that worship should be good theater. By that I mean it should have a thought-out emotional flow, it should draw people in, it should give them enough respect and space so that their minds can find God. It should at times be transparent, rather than commanding or entertaining, so people can see through the experience and go to a deeper place. It should have well-defined roles, not blurry ones (i.e., the song leader who gives a mini-sermon before each song as if in introduction, the car-salesmen clergy who smile brightly and say "I'm Chad, I'll be your server today, let me tell you about our specials..." or some homey words to that effect.)   What I object to in "Here I Am, Lord" is going to sound very picky, but so be it. It asks the congregation to be schizophrenic, almost. I think it's questionable at best to have the people take the part of God. It's just one of those casting mix-ups that drives me nuts. "I, the Lord of sea and sky"... Here we are, Look At Us, We're God, Isn't This Fun? Yucky. And worse, scary.   We are not God, we do not presume to know how God thinks or will speak. I think that's one of the primary tenets of true worship. And, paranoid as I am, I just think this kind of carelessness is one small part of the slippery slope that leads us away from worshipping with integrity.   As if that's not bad enough, the song then has the people sing "Here I Am, Lord." Whoops, we've changed roles again. Now we're the people, not God. Then we continue to jump back and forth like that. And we're doing it in such a cheery G-major, and it's made its way into so many standard hymnals, how could I possibly have a problem? "Oh, come on, it's pretty, lighten up." Yeah. Reminds me of Faust.   Chuck Peery St. Louis    
(back) Subject: Re: Legitimacy of word usage.... From: "Young Organists Online" <youngorganistsonline@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:21:36 -0600   He was never allowed to post on PIP-ORGL, he refused to give his address, = he privately replied to Mr. Hell   Landon   >From: Noel Stoutenburg <mjolnir@ticnet.com> >Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Subject: Re: Legitimacy of word usage.... >Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 03:49:52 -0600 > >When Landon writes: > >>Just because A. H. started out rough at DIYAPASON doesn't give David any =   >>reason not to forgive him or atleast not react so quickly, > >I agree. But the fact that A.H. started out exactly the same way on for >other lists to which I subscribe, and was publicly banned from all but = one >[the one that didn't publicly ban him was PIPORG-L, but his posts stopped =   >apearing after about two days] IS reason to act so quickly. > >ns > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >   _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! =   http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5086 - 01/14/05 From: "David Baker" <dgb137@mac.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:21:46 -0500   And while we're at it, let's eschew obfuscation. David Baker   On Jan 14, 2005, at 8:20 PM, PipeChat wrote:   > > I would advise that this otiose naumachia come to an end. > With two adolescents playing "InterNet Rashamon," the pot is > getting > stirred up and our time is being wasted with jobation in alternatum. > The "he said - she said - it said" macrology is pointless in light > of > what is emerging as a nefandous and apparently established track > record. > Let us move on to other nescient paralogism, or at best, sciolism. > > Sebastian    
(back) Subject: RE: Legitimacy of word usage.... From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 03:42:36 +1300   May I suggest we quit discussing Alex? I saw his postings on that other organ List, and he was repulsively arrogant and rude to other people. He = has been tossed off this List, rightly I believe, so let's now discuss more pleasant matters.   This is my first and only comment on the topic.   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: Gloucester Cathedral and the Varhaug Church in Norway on Organs and Organists Online From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 03:51:28 +1300   >The organ of Gloucester Cathedral, [snip] The most recent work was carried out by Nicholson & Co of Worcester in = 1999,   a thorough clean and overhaul, which included the addition of a 32' = Bombarde   and 32' "Cornet Separe" on the Pedals.   I spent a while playing this organ just a few months ago, and then page-turning at the main Sunday service as well. It's a fine organ = indeed. Nicholson's work is very good, tonally as well as mechanically, and it was quite right to add 32ft stuff on the Pedals. Why on earth they listened to Ralph Downes and allowed the 32ft Open Wood (out of sight up in the triforium) to be removed is quite beyond me. I asked several people at the cathedral "Why why why?" and the only answer I got was that Downes wanted the organ to be a "unit". What that meant, I have no idea and they didn't seem to know either. The only thing I can think of is that all of the = organ is now on the screen, and that 32ft would have had to remain "upstairs", = but that (to me) wouldn't have mattered in the slightest.   The Nicholson works, by the way, is in Malvern, not Worcester. Their = voicer, Guy Russell, really knows his stuff.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:57:26 -0600   Are you seriously expecting a conversation like this as a family leaves church?   Mr. Smith: I'm the Bread of Life. Mrs. Smith: You'd better listen to your father, girls. Smith 1: Why's he the bread of life? Mr. Smith: Cuz it said so in the song we sang today. Smith 2: But I'm the Bread of Life.   Seriously, I've never heard of someone thinking that they are God because they say "I the Lord" in a song. My sister did claim to be God at breakfast this morning, but we weren't singing.   If you notice, God is the verse while we are the refrain, so it is musically set off. Also, when we sing secular songs written for 2 people, we have a tendency to take on both parts, eg, if I am singing "Jolly Holiday" from _Mary Poppins_ I will invariably sing both Bert's and Mary's part (unless my sister is willing to sing the other part).   Alicia Zeilenga - who planned "Here I Am Lord" for tomorrow's services     -----Original Message----- From: Charles Peery <cepeery@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:58:51 -0500 Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord"   > Speaking of "Here I Am, Lord" in the current light of our praise music > discussion, I think it epitomizes some of the bad worship concepts > which we've let run rampant. And, like all of us in this discussion, > there are certain things that "set me off", so forgive me in advance. > > I guess I'm pretty flexible on the style of music, but what I really > hate is "worship as bad theater." I think that worship should be good > theater. By that I mean it should have a thought-out emotional flow, > it should draw people in, it should give them enough respect and space > so that their minds can find God. It should at times be transparent, > rather than commanding or entertaining, so people can see through the > experience and go to a deeper place. It should have well-defined > roles, not blurry ones (i.e., the song leader who gives a mini-sermon > before each song as if in introduction, the car-salesmen clergy who > smile brightly and say "I'm Chad, I'll be your server today, let me > tell you about our specials..." or some homey words to that effect.) > > What I object to in "Here I Am, Lord" is going to sound very picky, but > so be it. It asks the congregation to be schizophrenic, almost. I > think it's questionable at best to have the people take the part of > God. It's just one of those casting mix-ups that drives me nuts. "I, > the Lord of sea and sky"... Here we are, Look At Us, We're God, Isn't > This Fun? Yucky. And worse, scary. > > We are not God, we do not presume to know how God thinks or will speak. > I think that's one of the primary tenets of true worship. And, > paranoid as I am, I just think this kind of carelessness is one small > part of the slippery slope that leads us away from worshipping with > integrity. > > As if that's not bad enough, the song then has the people sing "Here > I > Am, Lord." Whoops, we've changed roles again. Now we're the people, > not God. Then we continue to jump back and forth like that. And we're > doing it in such a cheery G-major, and it's made its way into so many > standard hymnals, how could I possibly have a problem? "Oh, come on, > it's pretty, lighten up." Yeah. Reminds me of Faust. > > Chuck Peery > St. Louis > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >      
(back) Subject: Re: *ADMIN POST* re: Tonal Styles From: "Young Organists Online" <youngorganistsonline@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:57:13 -0600   Alan and All,   Alex is very aggravated at what you've said, he said he sent you an = e-mail, and that you basically aren't talking to him anymore. He's not = homeschooled for a bad reason, it's because his parents didn't want all of the negative =   influences of public schools on him. He gets along just fine with adults every week, he accompanies a church choir, and regularly speaks with = adults on a daily basis. No he may not be perfect, but for all he does in comparison to what some may have to do on here, he's not doing too bad. He =   has school work every day from 8 to 2, church twice a week plus choir practice, plus cantor practice on saturdays, works on his organ in any = spare time he has, goes to various social events, and also has band for half a = day on tuesday, in addition to orchestra on wednesday, and then he has to find =   the space to fit in time with friends, which he doesn't get to do often.   He's been featured in two organ concerts so far, and has also made it into =   the Diocesan Newspaper three different times, aswell as the local = newspaper featuring an article on the construction of his pipe organ, and is on a timeline to get his organ finished and working in time. He never = "demanded" anybody specifically for free windchests, he only asked if anybody had any =   or knew of any at a very good price, since he only makes I believe $20 a week between the two churches, and he's anxious to get it working since he =   doesn't have any organ at all to practice on sufficient for organ repertiore. I've seen both of the organs he plays on every week, and let = me tell you, they are not good enough even for Bach's Little Prelude and = Fugue book, it's two little old analog Baldwin church organs with only 4 = channels of audio and borrowing everywhere, I mean come on, he doesn't even have anything to practice on.   Everybody from what I can see has just been too fast-acting, sure he may have started out bad on DIYAPASON, but that was the first chance he ever = had to talk to any other organ people, and I think that we all know how different us organ people are at times, as far as attitudes and stances towards young ones. He is really not a rude kid, he just needs time, exposure, and no more of some of that cynicality that he's gotten from = Colin and others. He's just trying to balance all of his other stuff with this, which is hard let me tell you, with all that he does. Just give him time, = be kind, let him show you what he's really worth....   Landon   >From: Alan Freed <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> >Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Subject: Re: *ADMIN POST* re: Tonal Styles >Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:56:17 +0000 > >On 1/13/05 7:32 PM, "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > Aw shucks! > > > > Just when I had gone into killer mode! > > > > Colin Mitchell UK > > >Well, yeah. I=B9m sorry that I=B9ve been SO busy (but his tenure was so >deservedly SHORT!) that I could not warn the Owners (and the rest of us); = I >know this kid from another list (where he was tossed out after about = three >weeks). > >Now it=B9s too late. I haven=B9t the faintest argument with Tim=B9s and = David=B9s >action=8Bonly regret that I didn=B9t warn them sooner, when he first = popped up >here. > >He=B9s 15, about three months younger than Jarle Fagerheim--but of a = TOTALLY >different personality, OBVIOUSLY. Alex is the rudest person I=B9ve seen = on >ANY list (and I=B9ve been to =B3you know where=B2). I=B9ve tried, = personally, to >counsel Alex. He is IMPERVIOUS to advice. As you=B9ve witnessed, he is >totally NASTY. > >Personally, I like the kid (he serves two small-town RC parishes in >southern >Illinois=8Bhis home parish for zero, the other one for $20 per week. = He=B9s >got >his frustrations). > >He and I remain friends. I genuinely DO like him, and would LOVE to = shape >him up. But a =B3group situation=B2 is not for him. (He=B9s = home-schooled, and >I >have my suspicions as to why.) > >Lest you wonder: There=B9s a LOT more to this kid than you think. = He=B9s >BUILDING his own pipe organ (I=B9ve seen the photos) at home. He=B9s NOT = an >idiot. Just not socially adjusted yet. I=B9ll dig up his URL tomorrow = or >so, >so you can see his stuff in extenso, if you=B9d care to. > >Tough case. > >Alan > > > > >   _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee=AE Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3D3963    
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:01:20 EST   In a message dated 1/15/2005 9:58:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, azeilenga@theatreorgans.com writes:   who planned "Here I Am Lord" for tomorrow's services     we too are singing this, i bet it was designed originally as a Cantor, congregational response type = thing. i do NOT like the song, but it is perfect for missionary Sunday, and i = would rather the choir sing it than lug the entire congregation through it as a =   hymn......<G> dale in Florida