PipeChat Digest #5094 - Monday, January 17, 2005
 
Re: Techno Widor Toccata
  by "Arno Schuh" <arno.schuh@in-trier.de>
Re: Sacred Musician or What?
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
Re: Sacred Musician or What?
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Rehash and Short Memory
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Re: Sacred Musician or What?
  by "Bob Elms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Old, new, good, less good?
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Old, new, good, less good? (aka Mondegreens)
  by "Doug Henkle" <henkle@pobox.com>
Re: Belmont Church, Nashville (was Amy and B.J.) -- very long personal na
  by <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com>
Re: Techno Widor Toccata
  by "Malcolm Kogut" <mkogut@capital.net>
Re: more on 16' open wood and a Quint available
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Evaluating Church Organists ......  Why Not ??
  by "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com>
Re: Techno Widor Toccata
  by "Ray Kimber" <ray@kimber.com>
RE: Evaluating Church Organists ......  Why Not ??
  by "WmGrantChapman" <WmGrantChapman@msn.com>
Cantor, Sacred Musician or What?
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: Evaluating Church Organists ......  Why Not ??
  by "John M. Scott" <jscott@wolfvillebaptist.ca>
Re: Evaluating Church Organists ......  Why Not ??
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
"...people, too, will be burned."
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Techno Widor Toccata From: "Arno Schuh" <arno.schuh@in-trier.de> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:47:38 +0100     From: "Carolyn Carrier" <unencumbered@gmail.com>     > upon a time, when Audiogalaxy was in its prime, I mistakenly > downloaded a techno remix of Widor's Toccata in F when I was looking > for the real thing...   There was such a thing, part of a track, ona a Hooked on Classics CD, but = I don't know if it is that what you mean. This CD often is available from Ebay.   Arno    
(back) Subject: Re: Sacred Musician or What? From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 06:38:59 -0500   What do ya'lll think of the title of "cantor" if "cantor" is defined as = leader of the song of the assembly, even if you're the organist?   --Shirley   > > In recent posts, a certain individual has made the claim to be a > > sacred musician.    
(back) Subject: Re: Sacred Musician or What? From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 06:46:11 -0500   At 06:38 AM 1/17/2005, Shirley wrote: >What do ya'lll think of the title of "cantor" if "cantor" is defined as >leader of the song >of the assembly, even if you're the organist?   Bob Conway would like the simple designation.   What is so wrong with being the Organist and Choirmaster?   Sacred Musician indeed!   Bob    
(back) Subject: Re: Rehash and Short Memory From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 06:57:26 EST   In a message dated 1/15/2005 5:37:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, = Wdh2@aol.com writes: Recently, the pastor of a mega church in the DC area was told that the elimination of elements of traditional worship in his congregation would = be "reversed" and that it was expected that the church would reinstate the = "essential elements" musically. This is a congregation with a 3000 seat sanctuary and = well over 8,000 members. They have a pipe organ which was installed within the = past 15yrs, two musicians drawing 6 figure salaries and not ONE hymnal in the entire complex.   What church is it, and what kind of organ do they have?     Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA  
(back) Subject: Re: Sacred Musician or What? From: "Bob Elms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:08:50 +0800   "Cantor" means "singer". A church musician is more than that. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Sacred Musician or What?     > What do ya'lll think of the title of "cantor" if "cantor" is defined as > leader of the song > of the assembly, even if you're the organist? > > --Shirley >       -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 16/01/2005    
(back) Subject: Re: Old, new, good, less good? From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:20:21 -0600   Good Morning, PipeChatters: Hi, Jan: > ... still don't know why it's important to to sing out that > "Andy walks with me." Maybe that's so the can both watch out for the "Crosseyed bear." <grins> . . . okay, so it is a bit early for humor. <more grins>   F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Re: Old, new, good, less good? (aka Mondegreens) From: "Doug Henkle" <henkle@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:00:58 -0600 (CST)   > Good Morning, PipeChatters: > > Hi, Jan: > >> ... still don't know why it's important to to sing out that >> "Andy walks with me." > > Maybe that's so the can both watch out for the > "Crosseyed bear." > > <grins> . . . okay, so it is a bit early for humor. <more grins> > > F. Richard Burt   This topic is documented on the Web and in books. These are misheard lyrics, better known as "Mondegreens", a term coined by Sylvia Wright in a 1954 Atlantic article, when as a child she thought the line from an old song, "They had slain the Earl of Moray/And laid him on the green" was "They had slain the Earl of Moray/And Lady Mondegreen"   Google search for "mondegreen", and have fun reading 8,660 pages. ________________________________________ Doug Henkle - henkle@pobox.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Belmont Church, Nashville (was Amy and B.J.) -- very long personal narrative From: <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:17:28 EST   Hi, Y'all,   Monty brought up the Belmont Church in Nashville, and since I have some experience with the place during the early 90's, I thought I'd add my = words.   He's absolutely right that Amy grew up in the church, both when it was a = an a cappella Church of Christ, and then as it left that group, and became just =   The Belmont Church. Don Finto was a professor of German (he has an earned = Ph.D in German) and Old Testament at David Lipscomb College (now University) in =   Nashville, and was the minister at Belmont Church of Christ on Music Row, = and it was he who led this local church during all the changes. As you know, the Churches of Christ do not believe in instruments in worship since they are = a "New Testament church". They would use guitars and other acoustic instruments = in their very popular coffee house, Koinonia, but not in worship. Amy asked = the question, "why," and after months of discussion by the elders, she led the = way to using instruments in worship. Michael W. Smith was a member of the congregation, as were many of the contemporary christian musicians during = the late 80's-90's. It was not uncommon to see a local judge in a suit and tie, = sitting beside a verrrrrrry casually dressed young person or other local colorful personality. It was "the" contemporary melody singing church of its time.   For many years, it was just acoustic guitar or piano, etc., but with the advent of the P & W/contemporary melody movement, they have full embraced = that idiom, and use drums, electronic instruments, etc. There was a beautiful = 7' Baldwin piano in the sanctuary before the plug-in instruments arrived.   My wife was on the pastoral staff of Belmont Church from 1990-1995. Interestingly, we served Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort = Lauderdale before and after Susie's time at the Belmont Church. Although the Belmont style of = music and worship was not a part of our lives, she definititely believes she was =   called to that place for that time. I never doubt or dispute her calling = and work, although at times it's not of a style that is in concert with my = style of worship or music. During our time at Belmont, I would attend a large UMC = church not too far from Belmont, and then after the offertory would leave just in =   time to slip in the back door of Belmont to hear Dr. Finto's sermon. It = worked for me and our family.   When we left Nashville in 1995, we were given a party and reception by the =   Belmont Church. Dr. Finto gave me a plaque (which still hangs on the wall = in our organ room) thanking me for my years of service to Belmont as "Organist in =   Residence." Of course, to most musicians that's not a big thing, but it's = fun for us, since Belmont doesn't have an organ!   The Belmont Church is a great church which meets the needs of many, many people. They were very instrumental in sponsoring the Kurdish people in = the early 1990's during the war in Iraq, and now we can see those families making a positive impact in Nashville. They are very important to a couple of inner = city ministries, providing very valuable medical services and after-school educational support to low-income families.   Just thought you'd like to know.   Yours,   Darryl  
(back) Subject: Re: Techno Widor Toccata From: "Malcolm Kogut" <mkogut@capital.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:28:12 -0500   How do most of you finger the Widor? Am I the only person who uses 5 4 5 2 1 2 1 3 to avoid a stretch?   -Malcolm. mkogut@capital.net Rotterdam, NY    
(back) Subject: Re: more on 16' open wood and a Quint available From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:27:44 -0800   >Given that, I'd say free would be a good, fair price. >Andy > >On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:10:42 -0800, John Vanderlee wrote >> Hello Pipechatters, >> >> Yesterday I inspected the 16' open wood mentioned earlier. Sadly it >> was damaged by water infiltration. Although much of it appears >> salvageable ( some pipes now in "kit" form) and many of the 32 notes >> are ok. > > >A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service >PO Box 111 >Burlington, VT 05402 >(802)578-3936 >Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com   Ok .. how about for the cost of firewood? ;)   But seriously ....if you want it for free., or just a tiny donation?..   let me know, it looks like next month is dumpster time.   JV  
(back) Subject: Re: Evaluating Church Organists ...... Why Not ?? From: "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 06:43:35 -0800 (PST)   Hi Everyone, I think the Pastor has both the right and responsibility to determine if = the organist is, or is not performing their duties. To my reading the Pastor is seeking to do this in a fair and impartial = manner. On the other hand, I would expect that the Pastor would perform = all of this evaluation work himself, if he had the "guts". Insensitivity on the part of organists, to what either adds or detracts = from a congregation's worship experience, is THE major reason the organ is = being dismissed as being totally irrelevant to the worship experience. = Organists are no different from anyone else ....... everyone / everything = is subject to evaluation in a free society. I would suggest it really is quite easy to determine if the organist is = meeting the needs of the congregation, in terms of musical ministry. Be observant ....... Does the congregation look bored, annoyed, irritated during the Prelude ? If so the organist is obviously playing music that is not enhancing the = worship experience. Is the music so "botched" that the folks in the pew are uncomfortable ? During Hymns, .... can the congregation follow along easily ? Do they = have a chance to breath ? Do they look like they are straining because = they can't follow the music? Are they "shouting" to be heard ? If so the = organist is not sensitive to leading congregational singing. If there is a choir / soloist ......... are they "working well" with the = organist ? Can you hear them at all ? Does it sound like the organ is = always overpowering them, or perhaps the performers are grimacing etc. to = show that they are having a hard time ? Does ANYONE stay for the Postlude ? Or do they appear they can't get out = the door fast enough ? The replies to these questions indicates that the organist is indeed = performing their duties, competently, or not . I would also suggest that you "mix" with the congregation if there is a = social hour and bring up the topic of the musical ministry. Uniformly = negative or positive replies is probably the best way to understand if = things are "OK" or not. Of course, you might hear that the music is great but the Pastor has got = to go ! In that case you have a real problem !! Matt       --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
(back) Subject: Re: Techno Widor Toccata From: "Ray Kimber" <ray@kimber.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:47:37 -0700   Hi Carolyn,     That does sound like a hoot. Let me know if you locate the music.     In the meantime I do have a copy of a certain Handel "Chorus" in disco version, along with a disco version of Stravinsky's Firebird. Neither has an organ, both have long introductions so most folks have the darndest = time putting their finger on it because it sounds familiar and yet is so SO wrong. Please no flames! I already KNOW that it is silly.     Ray Kimber (usually only a lurker)           >>I'm sending this plea out to you all, because I figured if anybody   >>knew where I could find this, it would be hardcore organ fans. Once   >>upon a time, when Audiogalaxy was in its prime, I mistakenly   >>downloaded a techno remix of Widor's Toccata in F when I was looking   >>for the real thing...I've had my hard drive replaced since then, so I   >>no longer have the file, but I have an organist friend whose birthday   >>is coming up soon and would get a real kick out of it. Does anybody   >>know where I can find this remix, preferably on a CD?     >>Thanks for any and all help,   >>Carolyn      
(back) Subject: RE: Evaluating Church Organists ...... Why Not ?? From: "WmGrantChapman" <WmGrantChapman@msn.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:08:28 -0500   This situation is for the church to handle internally. If the Pastor = wants to go "outside" then make it official--hire someone to be the critic or investigator and have this included in committee minutes. I think this smells like three day old fish. =20 Grant Chapman   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Mattcinnj Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:44 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Evaluating Church Organists ...... Why Not ??     Hi Everyone, =20 I think the Pastor has both the right and responsibility to determine if = the organist is, or is not performing their duties. =20 =20 To my reading the Pastor is seeking to do this in a fair and impartial manner. On the other hand, I would expect that the Pastor would perform = all of this evaluation work himself, if he had the "guts". =20 Insensitivity on the part of organists, to what either adds or detracts = from a congregation's worship experience, is THE major reason the organ is = being dismissed as being totally irrelevant to the worship experience. = Organists are no different from anyone else ....... everyone / everything is = subject to evaluation in a free society. =20 I would suggest it really is quite easy to determine if the organist is meeting the needs of the congregation, in terms of musical ministry. =20 Be observant ....... =20 Does the congregation look bored, annoyed, irritated during the Prelude = ? =20 If so the organist is obviously playing music that is not enhancing the worship experience. =20 Is the music so "botched" that the folks in the pew are uncomfortable ? =20 During Hymns, .... can the congregation follow along easily ? Do they = have a chance to breath ? Do they look like they are straining because they = can't follow the music? Are they "shouting" to be heard ? If so the organist = is not sensitive to leading congregational singing. =20 If there is a choir / soloist ......... are they "working well" with the organist ? Can you hear them at all ? Does it sound like the organ is always overpowering them, or perhaps the performers are grimacing etc. = to show that they are having a hard time ? =20 Does ANYONE stay for the Postlude ? Or do they appear they can't get = out the door fast enough ? =20 The replies to these questions indicates that the organist is indeed performing their duties, competently, or not . =20 I would also suggest that you "mix" with the congregation if there is a social hour and bring up the topic of the musical ministry. Uniformly negative or positive replies is probably the best way to understand if things are "OK" or not. =20 =20 Of course, you might hear that the music is great but the Pastor has got = to go ! In that case you have a real problem !! =20 =20 Matt =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20   =20       _____ =20   Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D29914/*http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250>=   more.    
(back) Subject: Cantor, Sacred Musician or What? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:09:36 +0000   On 1/17/05 11:38 AM, "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> wrote:   > What do ya'lll think of the title of "cantor" if "cantor" is defined as l= eader > of the song of the assembly, even if you're the organist? >=20 Shirley: There is a small book(let), published, I think, by Concordia, St. Louis, that does a quite scholarly treatment on the Cantor/Kantor in Christian worship. As I recall, its thrust is that the Cantor is (like tha= t guy in Leipzig) is a TOTAL (probably full time) music person, composing, arranging, teaching, rehearsing, planning, singing, conducting=8Bthe whole thing. A cantor has a broad theological and specifically liturgical education. (For that reason it=B9s rather related to the Jewish term, =B3Chazzan=B2 or =B3Cantor.=B2)   The current RC use of the word for one who leads the singing of the psalmod= y is a much lesser thing.   Alan Freed  
(back) Subject: RE: Evaluating Church Organists ...... Why Not ?? From: "John M. Scott" <jscott@wolfvillebaptist.ca> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:13:21 -0400   Fling wide the gates! While I agree with many of Matt=92s points, I completely, and strongly disagree with his suggestion that =93Insensitivity on the part of = organists, to what either adds or detracts=A0from a congregation's worship = experience, is THE major reason the organ is being dismissed as being totally = irrelevant to the worship experience.=94   Organists can not be held accountable for a dramatic shift in cultural = and social expectations when it comes to faith and worship. It is due to = these changes in how people perceive their faith that the music of the church = has seen, and is seeing such a dramatic shift of focus. In many respects, = music receives the brunt of the criticism, when really what we are = experiencing is a church going (or not) population that wants immediate = response/reaction. To blame organists for the decline of the use of the organ in worship is completely off the mark.=20 While most organists I know don't necessarily care for poorly written (textually and musically) "contemporary music" (praise songs, choruses, etc...) they are more than professional in their duties. When the organ = can be used effectively to play and lead a piece such as those mentioned it = will be. When the organ just doesn't fit, they play the piano or leave it to = a worship band when there is one.   We are all faced with a population that no longer thinks the same. = Today's (multi)media has trained us all: with the click of a button you can have everything you want. Worship is becoming the same in many churches. = Which would you rather read; C.S. Lewis or Philip Yancy? Which would you rather sing; O God, Our Help In Ages Past or Here I Am = To Worship? When was the last time you hear an organ on "popular" radio? = When was the last time you heard a guitar and drums on "popular" radio?   To blame organists for the decline of the use of the instrument in = worship, I'm afraid, is simply ignorant.   John Scott Organist/Choir Director Member of the Praise Band Free Jazz Musician   ________________________________________      
(back) Subject: Re: Evaluating Church Organists ...... Why Not ?? From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:12:29 -0500   I think a lot of concepts are getting unnecessarily jumbled here....   <<I think the Pastor has both the right and responsibility to determine=20=   if the organist is, or is not performing their duties.=A0 > =A0To my reading the Pastor is seeking to do this in a fair and=20 > impartial manner.=A0 On the other hand, I would expect that the Pastor=20=   > would perform all of this evaluation work himself, if he had the=20 > "guts".   The point is not about evaluating vs. not, it's that the church should=20=   have a system in place and use it. To not have a system is negligent. =20=   To have it and then run around it is devious. People responding to the=20=   original post were pointing out that the inappropriate thing was WHO=20 was asked to do it.   > Be observant ....... > Does the congregation look bored, annoyed, irritated during the=20 > Prelude ? > If so the organist is obviously playing music that is not enhancing=20 > the worship experience. > Does ANYONE stay for the Postlude ?=A0 Or do they appear they can't = get=20 > out the door fast enough ?   Oh, my goodness. You're saying that a fair evaluation of the organist=20=   involves something as anecdotal as the look on people's faces during=20 the prelude or how fast they exit ? To me, this is not an objective=20 way to draw conclusions. They could have gas, they could be naturally=20=   crabby. They could be ignoring the prelude in order to chat and greet=20=   friends (we've been through THAT discussion enough on here, it can=20 happen to any of us.) They could have Brunch reservations and the=20 sermon ran long.   > I would also suggest that you "mix" with the congregation if there is=20=   > a social hour and bring up the topic of the musical ministry.=20 > Uniformly negative or positive replies is probably the best way to=20 > understand if things are "OK" or not.=A0   I can't think of anything more ill-advised. This is somebody's JOB=20 EVALUATION we're talking about. This is equivalent of running a focus=20=   group, and more and more, church consultants are advising that focus=20 groups are NOT the way to chart a course for the congregation. Again,=20=   I think that's come up on this list fairly recently also. There was a=20=   faction in one of my churches that was DEAD SET against the remodeling=20=   of the Sanctuary and replacement of the organ. Thereafter (for many,=20 many years, including my years there, 10 years after the rebuild) that=20=   faction hated the organ and no matter how softly you played, they=20 claimed it was still too loud! One of them said to me, "I'd be happier=20=   if you didn't play the damn thing at all." So, a comparative stranger=20=   is supposed to walk into the social hour and sift through all these=20 dynamics?   I'm not against evaluation at all, but there is a fair way and an=20 unfair way to go about it.   Chuck Peery St. Louis    
(back) Subject: "...people, too, will be burned." From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:21:13 EST     In a message dated 01/17/05 4:55:29 AM, TheShieling@xtra.co.nz states with brutal bluntness:   "How much is known of its Nazi use I have no idea, and have no interest in =   finding out." "I would say we have an obligation to reclaim the tune with no bowing = to any kind of pressure to discuss the Nazi use. Sixty years after the Nazi defeat, we should have better things to do." "I do like listening to first-class yodelling as well." --Ross     Well, sir, although pulling the New Zealand wool over your eyes in whatever bucolic intellectual "shieling" you inhabit makes you feel = defensively and smugly comfortable, I shall leave you with this well-known piece of = writing about the Nazis by Martin Niemoeller (which may not have made it to New = Zealand yet, or simply is being ignored):   First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me.   And, as Heinrich Heine (1797-1856) wrote a century before the war:   "When books are burned in the end people, too, will be burned."   May your perceived luck hold out.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City Martin Luther King Day 2005     ..