PipeChat Digest #5096 - Monday, January 17, 2005 Re: "The Parish Organist" volume sought [x-posted] by <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Re: "...people, too, will be burned." by "Bob Elms" <email@example.com> Re: free downloads of Bach's organ music by "Dr. Amy Fleming" <firstname.lastname@example.org> [VERY LONG] The new year and Joyce Jones by "Glenda" <email@example.com> Re: [VERY LONG] The new year and Joyce Jones by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Theatre organ installations within the City of Chicago during the TO (si by "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: This week's MP3 - more music of Steve Best by "Jonathan Orwig" <email@example.com> Re: more on 16' open wood and a Quint available by "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Enterprise, Alabama by "Glenda" <email@example.com> Re: more on 16' open wood and a Quint available by "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Widor Toccata (fingering) was Techno ... by "David Scambler" <email@example.com> Churches of Christ and instruments by "Ned Benson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Churches of Christ and instruments by "Bob Elms" <email@example.com> Misplaced hatred by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: "...people, too, will be burned." by "M Fox" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Misplaced hatred by "Roger Brown" <email@example.com> Re: Misplaced hatred by "Administrator" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: "The Parish Organist" volume sought [x-posted] From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:30:20 EST MorningStar Music is now publishing Chorale Improvisations (several) = volumes composed by Dr. Paul O. Manz. "Jesus, Lead Thou On" is published in at least two versions one of which is a set of 3 - 5 pieces for weddings. The = link to MorningStar follows - _http://www.morningstarmusic.com/comp_manz.htm_ (http://www.morningstarmusic.com/comp_manz.htm) Dale Rider Independence, MO USA
(back) Subject: Re: "...people, too, will be burned." From: "Bob Elms" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:36:26 +0800 I thin Ross is quite correct. "Austria" was written by Haydn long before = the Nazis came along. In the religious tradition from which I came it has = always been sung as a hymn tune with noone making any objection except one = minister who himself before his conversion had been in the Hitler Youth. He did = not wish the tune to be used since it had unfortunate connotations for = himself. Do we condemn all music that may have been used by the Nazis? Of course = not. Then why single out Austria? Carrying this further we should ban the tune Russia (God the all-terrible, King who ordainest) since the Communist = regime conducted purges too. It is no use going overboard like this. Maybe it is Sebastian who has the wool over his eyes! Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 12:21 AM Subject: "...people, too, will be burned." > > In a message dated 01/17/05 4:55:29 AM, TheShieling@xtra.co.nz states > with brutal bluntness: > > "How much is known of its Nazi use I have no idea, and have no interest = in > finding out." > "I would say we have an obligation to reclaim the tune with no bowing = > to > any kind of pressure to discuss the Nazi use. Sixty years after the Nazi > defeat, we should have better things to do." > "I do like listening to first-class yodelling as well." > --Ross > > > Well, sir, although pulling the New Zealand wool over your eyes in > whatever bucolic intellectual "shieling" you inhabit makes you feel > defensively and > smugly comfortable, I shall leave you with this well-known piece of > writing > about the Nazis by Martin Niemoeller (which may not have made it to New > Zealand > yet, or simply is being ignored): > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 16/01/2005
(back) Subject: Re: free downloads of Bach's organ music From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:54:59 -0600 Hi Daniel - this link does not work, at least not at the moment "Free Sheetmusic Library" http://www.bh2000.net/score/ Thanks to everyone else who replied. If she were actually going to play = the music in a concert I wouldn't mind purchacing a good copy. Amy - In Harrison will be in Spgfld Friday for Riverdance!
(back) Subject: [VERY LONG] The new year and Joyce Jones From: "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:04:47 -0600 A new year is here, and the first two weeks were a doozie. After spending a lot of the holiday in court, I came back to work to two full days of court for the first week of the new year. I have been faithfully practicing the organ in the evenings, although some days I don=92t feel I play the music for the recital program any better than = when I started. But I cannot predict which days will be good =96 sometimes a stressful day leads to an unusually good practice. After one aggravating day all the music fell into place and sounded just like I wanted. That=92s always a magical feeling. I=92ve calculated probable registrations, identified the obvious problem areas and repetitive practiced them, started on the program notes, and prepared materials for the recital committee to use for publicity. Try as I might, I cannot figure out how to avoid re-registering a couple times during the recital (which seems excessive to me), so am still working on that conundrum. This week began with a call-back interview for a job in Tallahassee. That experience made me think long and hard about whether I really wanted that job if offered. In the meantime I had been discussing an offer from a friend to resume private practice, and checking into the cost of private health insurance while trying to figure out what to do with my deferred comp package. =20 The next day I took my mom in for cataract surgery, a pleasant experience. The entire procedure from admission and tests to pre-op to post-op took only about four hours. And her nationally-known eye specialist was so pleasant and personable, as well as being very knowledgeable and open. In fact, he personally called her the next day to check on her, asking whether she had any pain, about her blood sugar and medications, how her post-op appointment with her optometrist went, and so on. So I spent the first half of the work week out of work. When I came back in, it was to find out that my boss was calling around trying to worm information from my co-workers about whether I was leaving. An attorney had been spreading rumors about me taking other jobs; in fact, a judge congratulated me on a new job as a prosecutor in front of the incumbent elected prosecutor, and I had to correct him and tell him I had not been offered such a position, embarrassing us both. I was at first angry that my boss didn=92t have the decency to check directly = with me, but got over it quickly. After all, I would love the rumor to be true. The week had been so busy, and just before a phone conference Friday I received a call offering me the Tallahassee job. I heard no voice from heaven, but suddenly knew with a blinding clarity that the answer was no. In fact, I have been so surprised that I=92m not more disappointed, but can see the effects of the guiding hand. Joyce Jones dedicated a Schantz organ rebuilt and added to by Schleuter at First Baptist Church in Enterprise, Alabama, on Sunday. So I took a very young and engaging although enthusiastically gay guy to hear her. I note this because I learned a lot from him during the trip. Before we left town, I stopped by my old church to leave some publicity info for the committee, and saw many of my old friends at the church, who welcomed me warmly and expressed excitement at the upcoming recital. =20 Anyway, back to this organ. Apparently the church=92s original organ (builder unidentified) from 1920 had been moved to the Episcopal church in town, and a Schantz was installed in 1970. Schleuter had been retained to do some work and add some sounds to the three-manual Schantz. =20 The church interior was pleasant, all creamy white walls with soft green carpet and pew cushions. The only pipes visible were the fa=E7ade = across the front of the church, part of the principal looking as though dipped in a creamy taupy-gold enamel. This was only Joyce=92s third recital in the state of Alabama, the other two having been in Birmingham and Mobile. We chose seats on the sixth row with a good view of her at the console, resplendent in a sparkling white iridescent gown of white chiffon. =20 The program: Toccata on =93Rejoice, Ye Pure in Heart=94 (tune Marion) =96 Albert = Travis Prelude on =93O Sacred Head Now Wounded=94 =96 J.S. Bach Prelude on =93Nun freut euch . . . =93 =96 Bach Prelude and Fugue in D major, BWV 532 =96 Bach Pastorale =96 Cesar Franck Fete =96 Jean Langlais Variations on =93America=94 =96 Charles Ives Two Hymn Preludes: on =93O Waly Waly=94 and =93Church in the = Wildwood=94 Pageant =96 Leo Sowerby Encore: The Red Dragonfly This was not her best recital, but she always provides such an engaging and entertaining program. She was at home, in a Baptist church with an attentive and appreciative audience. In fact, the church was full, the audience leaning forward and savoring every moment. However, she was suffering from allergies, which she admitted affected her playing. She played, as usual, totally from memory. The Travis was new to me, but a joyous and interesting toccata by an organ professor at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Does anyone else know this piece? The two Bach chorales were played simply and lovingly, the =93O Sacred Head=94 having been played at the Schantz original dedication. No tremulant was used. The =93Rejoice, Beloved Christians=94 made use of a sweet (yes, that=92s what I said) schalmei and the zimbelstern. The D major is a signature piece for her, and one of my friend=92s favorite pieces. Did you know it sounds different on a Baptist organ? After the recital she told us her eyes were watering so badly during the fugue that she almost fell off the organ bench. =20 The Pastorale is one of Franck=92s prettiest works, and it actually came off quite well on the organ. The Langlais showcased the new hooded en chamade hidden in the swell chamber. My friend was disappointed that the trumpet didn=92t part his hair, but it sported a pleasing sound. Ives=92 variations were a hoot, but the pedal portions near the end did not seem as prominent as usual. The organ seemed to suffer from a lot of =91attitude notes=92, as my friend called them, although there were = some nice sounds. I did not get the opportunity to check how well the sound projected to the back of the room. Joyce=92s two hymn preludes were a crowd-pleaser. I never studied the = =91O Waly Waly=92 one, but realized that it needed three manuals because her right hand was playing two manuals at once. The Pageant was apparently a success too, judging from the audience=92s reaction. And the encore = was received extremely well, a charming piece that explored the organ=92s = less commonly used stops, including the chimes. I remember she once said she liked to use a harp on this number, but don=92t know what she = substituted. Afterward we were able to chat with Dr. Jones, and she was charming and diverting. We learned from her and church members that she had played some for the morning service, and that she was performing for the evening service. In fact, she was trying to finish the final preparations for the evening service, and a note was out. The builder had no representative present, and she apparently had to personally get a couple notes working Sunday morning. She was debating whether to crawl into the chamber in her white chiffon dress as we left her. We stopped for coffee with the Dothan AGO Chapter dean and the young Auburn biochemical major who was persuading the university to provide him an organ minor. I forgot to ask with whom he was studying. Then we made the hour-long drive home.=20 When I arrived home, I discovered that I had been called (on a Sunday!) for another interview on a legislative job. So here I go again. It has been a while since I felt loved and needed at work, so having others interested in employing me is an alien but welcome warm and fuzzy feeling, almost as good as getting these organ pieces to fall into place. I realized that the sun had not been shining around here in a long time, and today is cold but clear and bright. The reserves of grace are beginning to refill. Glenda Sutton email@example.com
(back) Subject: Re: [VERY LONG] The new year and Joyce Jones From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:32:19 EST Was nice to read your post. I was a member of the OBU Bison Glee Club = back in the 70s, and we sang at the community college there in Enterprise 2 = times. Peanut Butter Capital of the world, and of course... who could forget the Boll Weevil Monument? Sounds like it was a very pleasant recital. Neil by the Cold Bay
(back) Subject: Theatre organ installations within the City of Chicago during the TO (silent film) era (cross-posted) From: "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:51:27 -0600 Finally finished and uploaded as complete as possible a listing of = theatre organs within the City of Chicago. I will now start on the suburban listing. The list can be = found in the organ area of the CATOE ORGAN PAGE www.catoe.org Jon
(back) Subject: Re: This week's MP3 - more music of Steve Best From: "Jonathan Orwig" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:57:10 -0800 Gla you liked it! It was recorded using Martin Dyde's softwae sampler "Hauptwerk" http://www.hauptwerk.co.uk Samples are mostly from a 1966 Schantz and a few other sources Cheers, Jonathan John M. Scott wrote: >Reminds me of Aaron Copeland's "Rodeo" - just needs a clap stick and few >more bars of 5/8! >Where was the piece recorded? > >thanks > >-----Original Message----- >From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of >Jonathan Orwig >Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:54 PM >To: undisclosed-recipients: >Subject: This week's MP3 - more music of Steve Best > >Hello friends, > >Steve has done it again - this time it is a set of 3 pieces written for >his students - I'll quote what Steve has written for the inside cover: > >********* >When in the fall of 2004, I found myself in the enviable position of >teaching three specially talented organists in their mid-teens, I >decided that one way to recognize their abilitities was to write pieces >in their honor. The goals I set were that (1) each piece must reflect >the personality of the student for whom it was written, (2) each piece >must be within the technical grasp of the student for whom it was >written, and (3) each piece, although written for a young artist, must >be of sufficient appeal that it could be used by any organist. Just as >it is a joy to teach such outstanding young people, it has been a joy to >match compositions to each of their unique personalities. The titles >given include the first name of each student. Although alternate titles >are included for performers who may prefer more generic names, it is my >hope that the original titles be used in special recognition of the >remarkable achievements of these young artists. >Stephen Best >Utica, New York >January 3, 2005 > >********** > >This is the 3rd piece of the set, Leah's Dance > >http://evensongmusic.net/audio/LeahDance.mp3 (2.78mb) >http://evensongmusic.net/audio/LQ/LeahDanceLQ.mp3 (473kb) > >This piece made me smile..... and I think that it and the other 3 would >be wonderful >for those of you who have young (or young at heart) students. >As time permits, I'll be preparing the other 2 in the set, and then >Evensong Music >will be offering the scores > >Best Wishes to all! > > > -- Jonathan Orwig Evensong Music, Media and Graphics New Choral and Organ Music http://www.evensongmusic.net
(back) Subject: Re: more on 16' open wood and a Quint available From: "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:57:11 -0500 At cheap or free, it would be tempting for me, but without any forseen use = for such a rank in the near future, I can't do it. However, given its = size, it has some value as lumber at least. I hate to see all that lumber just burn, even if its just poplar (I don't think you said what the material was). Maybe a local cabinetmaker would give a little bit for the board feet? I'll bet a local woodworker would at least pick it up for free if nothing else, saving you the work of disposal. That's salada wood. Andy On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:27:44 -0800, John Vanderlee wrote > >Given that, I'd say free would be a good, fair price. > >Andy > > > >On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:10:42 -0800, John Vanderlee wrote > >> Hello Pipechatters, > >> > >> Yesterday I inspected the 16' open wood mentioned earlier. Sadly it > >> was damaged by water infiltration. Although much of it appears > >> salvageable ( some pipes now in "kit" form) and many of the 32 notes > >> are ok. > > > Ok .. how about for the cost of firewood? ;) > But seriously ....if you want it for free., or just a tiny donation?.. > let me know, it looks like next month is dumpster time. > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: Enterprise, Alabama From: "Glenda" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:01:56 -0600 Actually, Neil, I thought Tuskegee was the Peanut Butter Capital of the World, inasmuch as it was allegedly =91invented=92 by George Washington Carver (I was told this as a child, but again wasn=92t there), but could be wrong. The Monument is still there, large as life. Don=92t know = what other organs exist in the town, but the Methodists are building a monstrous new building. Glenda Sutton firstname.lastname@example.org -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Innkawgneeto@cs.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:32 PM To: email@example.com Subject: Re: [VERY LONG] The new year and Joyce Jones Was nice to read your post.=A0 I was a member of the OBU Bison Glee Club back in the 70s, and we sang at the community college there in Enterprise 2 times. Peanut Butter Capital of the world, and of course... who could forget the Boll Weevil Monument?
(back) Subject: Re: more on 16' open wood and a Quint available From: "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:09:58 -0500 By the way, maybe you oughtta make another stab at organbuilders in the east, and the organ clearing house. I'll contact my old boss (Russell and = Company) and see if he'd have any interest in picking it up. Andy On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:57:11 -0500, Andy Lawrence wrote > At cheap or free, it would be tempting for me, but without any > forseen use for such a rank in the near future, I can't do it. > However, given its size, it has some value as lumber at least. I > hate to see all that lumber just burn, even if its just poplar (I > don't think you said what the material was). Maybe a local > cabinetmaker would give a little bit for the board feet? I'll bet a > local woodworker would at least pick it up for free if nothing else, > saving you the work of disposal. That's salada wood. Andy A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: Re: Widor Toccata (fingering) was Techno ... From: "David Scambler" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:25:58 +1100 Malcolm wrote: > How do most of you finger the Widor? Am I the > only person who uses 5 4 5 2 1 2 1 3 to avoid a > stretch? I have small hands and can only reach a 9th. Nevertheless I find 5 4 5 3 2 1 2 3 easier. dave
(back) Subject: Churches of Christ and instruments From: "Ned Benson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:31:13 -0800 "As you know, the Churches of Christ do not believe in instruments in worship since they are a "New Testament church"." Yeah, but as I used to poke at a C of C colleague in Austin TX, they somehow manage to use electric lights and air conditioning in worship! :-) -- Dr. Ned H. Benson St. John's Presbyterian Church 1070 West Plumb Lane Reno, Nevada 89509 http://www.stjohnschurch.org
(back) Subject: Re: Churches of Christ and instruments From: "Bob Elms" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:09:01 +0800 Yes. I had a wordy battle with the local Pastor of the "Nondenominational Church of Christ" (How can a church be "non-denominational" if it uses a title? But that's another issue). I challenged his statement in the local press that he conducted worship exactly as the Disciples did 2000 years = ago, i.e. no mechanical musical instruments and all a cappella singing. Historically of course he was wrong anyway, as it is recorded that the disciples attended the Jewish Temple for at least the few decades after = the crucifixion; why not? They were Jews. The Temple used not only a form of organlike instrument but also strings, brass and percussion. It was only after they were forced to go underground that they did not use instruments = - for obvious reasons. (Reference: Church Music in History and Practice: Dr. = Douglas, Mus.Bac.) I asked the Pastor why they did not ride donkeys to church and why they = used electric light since the early Christians had neither motor cars nor electric light. There was no reply. The name Church of Christ is rather confusing since in this city there is also the Church of Christ, a mainstream denomination. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ned Benson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: Churches of Christ and instruments > "As you know, the Churches of Christ do not believe in instruments in > worship since they are a "New > Testament church"." > > Yeah, but as I used to poke at a C of C colleague in Austin TX, they > somehow manage to use electric lights and air conditioning in worship! = :-) > -- > Dr. Ned H. Benson > St. John's Presbyterian Church > 1070 West Plumb Lane > Reno, Nevada 89509 > http://www.stjohnschurch.org > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005
(back) Subject: Misplaced hatred From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:41:52 EST Mr. Elms: You have been vicious, and distorted my words in the past, and I will = not permit it this time. You are engaged in the very same type of manipulation = and misrepresentation that has historically led to very bad things. Stop it. You are perfectly aware that I did not "condemn" the music of Haydn. Since you are able to write, I assume that you are able to read. I = discussed the importance of knowing the complete background of the music, and the = dangers of forgetting what the mis-use of art does. My post was in response to a man who seriously ASKED this forum about those very issues, so this is not "my issue," but one that continues to = concern many people, worldwide, who happen not to be you. Injustice must not be forgotten, whether it is sixty years after the = mass slaughters in Europe, or two thousand years following the Crucifixion. If several times a day for twenty centuries, we can recall and explain THAT injustice, then a bit of education regarding other more conveniently = forgotten crimes is hardly inappropriate. Set aside your pettiness long enough to separate your agenda with me = from the subject at hand, and do not lie about what I said. The subject had, in = fact, wound down, with some thoughtful exchanges, until you felt the uncontrollable compulsion to inject your venom. You will, of course, insist on having the last word. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City ..
(back) Subject: Re: "...people, too, will be burned." From: "M Fox" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:49:35 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Elms" <email@example.com> To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 3:36 PM Subject: Re: "...people, too, will be burned." >I thin Ross is quite correct. "Austria" was written by Haydn long before >the Nazis came along. In the religious tradition from which I came it has = >always been sung as a hymn tune with noone making any objection except = one >minister who himself before his conversion had been in the Hitler Youth. = >He did not wish the tune to be used since it had unfortunate connotations = >for himself. Do we condemn all music that may have been used by the = Nazis? >Of course not. Then why single out Austria? Carrying this further we = should >ban the tune Russia (God the all-terrible, King who ordainest) since the >Communist regime conducted purges too. > It is no use going overboard like this. Maybe it is Sebastian who has = the > wool over his eyes! > This subject is not of any particular interest to me, and I will be happy when it just goes away (along with several others that are even more annoying), but since it persists: for the record: I am 64, American, and therefore came to consciousness during WWII. I grew up Catholic, and = during my youth "Austria" was not in our hymnals. When I first encountered it, I suppose in the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal, I was a bit shocked: I had come to know it only in its incarnation as the German national anthem. When it = later came to be introduced into Catholic hymnals, the shock had still not worn off, and to this day, playing in Protestant churches, I am not comfortable = playing it. It is a fact that unwanted baggage can come to be atttached to inherently harmless things. At the moment, I can't think of several good examples = that I know are whirring around in the back of my mind, of music or phrases or sights that have lost their original meaning because of later association with something else. But I reject absolutely the notion that Seb is going overboard, or has wool over his eyes. MAF
(back) Subject: Re: Misplaced hatred From: "Roger Brown" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:25 +1100 On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:41 pm, TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > =A0 =A0 You have been vicious, and distorted my words in the past, and I = will > not permit it this time. You are engaged in the very same type of > manipulation and misrepresentation that has historically led to very bad > things. Stop it. Huh? What utter nonsense! > =A0 =A0 You are perfectly aware that I did not "condemn" the music of Hay= dn. > Since you are able to write, I assume that you are able to read. I > discussed the importance of knowing the complete background of the music, > and the dangers of forgetting what the mis-use of art does. Which is precisely what Bob and Ross have been saying - that the fact that = a=20 certain German person who does not deserve further mention MAY have briefly= =20 hijacked this tune affects not in the least the overall background - which = is=20 nothing to do with racism, the holocaust or any other historic evil. It's obviously a country by country issue and perhaps down here we don't ha= ve=20 the sharp memories of the European aspect of WW2 that seem to linger in you= r=20 country. The use of the tune has never been an issue over my last 50 years = of=20 singing in church nor can I imagine it now being so. =2D-=20 Roger Brown=09 firstname.lastname@example.org http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org
(back) Subject: Re: Misplaced hatred From: "Administrator" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:08:35 -0600 At 2:57 PM +1100 1/18/05, Roger Brown wrote: >It's obviously a country by country issue and perhaps down here we don't = have >the sharp memories of the European aspect of WW2 that seem to linger in = your >country. The use of the tune has never been an issue over my last 50 = years of >singing in church nor can I imagine it now being so. I really think that some of these problems we run into on this list are due to the differences between various country outlooks - What may be a problem here in the US isn't a problem down under and vice-versa. I think it is time to drop this petty quarrelling on this subject and move = on! David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat http://www.pipechat.org mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org