PipeChat Digest #5098 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005
 
Re: Toccata on "Rejoice, Pure in Heart"
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
ANTIQUE PRIMITIVE MASONIC ORGAN PIPE TRINITY CHURCH
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Bob Elms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Churches of Christ and instruments
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Block Style
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Evolution and disintegration of the Blockwerk
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Free Sheetmusic Library
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Widor Toccata Fingering
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
(no subject)
  by "Richard Ditewig" <rwditewig@msn.com>
Re: "...people, too, will be burned."
  by "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com>
Cecil Rigby
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Toccata on "Rejoice, Pure in Heart"
  by "Hugh Drogemuller" <hdrogemuller@sympatico.ca>
RE: Toccata on "Rejoice, Pure in Heart"
  by "Russ Parker" <rparker@heightscpc.org>
WAS "...people, too, will be burned."  NOW bad music usage
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: Free Sheetmusic Library
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: L.A. 2004
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Appealing To The Lists Wisdom
  by "mack02445" <mack02445@comcast.net>
Re: "The Parish Organist" volume sought [x-posted]
  by "James Edward Mackay" <ymcmlx@gmail.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk>
Good Music
  by "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Organ rags
  by "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Good Music
  by "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: Churches of Christ and instruments
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Toccata on "Rejoice, Pure in Heart" From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:02:40 EST   I play the Travis toccata. I first heard it back in 1991 and bought my = copy of the collection at the Baptist Bookstore in Nashville, TN, since it was published by Broadman. It is now out of print, I am told. I've only = heard one other person ever play the piece--everytime I use it, it always gets the congregation cheering. I think it's a work that people like because it's = 1. flashy, 2. engaging to the ear because the people can follow a melody line (and = it's a tune they know!), 3. the pedal solo in the middle section and the pedal = runs at the end "wow" the audience or congregation. It requires some dexterity = and an advanced technique--a beginner or even a moderate student probably wouldn't be able to tackle it. Once it's learned however, it's something = good to keep under the fingers. It's a lot of fun to play, and it's exciting to = listen to.   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: ANTIQUE PRIMITIVE MASONIC ORGAN PIPE TRINITY CHURCH From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:15:21 -0600   ANTIQUE PRIMITIVE MASONIC ORGAN PIPE TRINITY CHURCH WITH ALL THE PROVENANCE TRINITY CHURCH MASON HISTORY Item number: = 377529556LL   Looks like there were no takers on this fantastic "Deal of the Week"....   jch      
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:02:31 -0600   Sorry, but I don't get why it is bad theology - it is a scriptural text. They've expanded a bit poetically - but it is still directly based on scripture....   Margo   Charles Peery wrote: > LOL, I said I knew my position was excessive, that it was a picky > thing. Not to be Chicken Little about it, my point was that we are > where we are because of a lot of little cave-ins such as this, where we > don't really THINK about what the song says or does, we just say "We > like it, it's pretty., what's the harm?" I'm not saying the song will > make people jump off tall buildings, because, being God, they are > invincible. Bad theology doesn't have such literal outcomes. But my > point was: what outcomes DOES it have, and might it still not be > harmful in the long run? > Chuck Peery > St. Louis > > > On Jan 15, 2005, at 9:57 AM, Alicia Zeilenga wrote: > >> Seriously, I've never heard of someone thinking that they are God >> because they say "I the Lord" in a song. My sister did claim to be God >> at breakfast this morning, but we weren't singing. > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >     -- Dr. Margo Dillard Organist, FUMC, Lewisville, TX Musical Feast Choral Society Dillard Piano & Organ Studio    
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Bob Elms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:11:55 +0800   Well "Here I am Lord" is in the AHB2 (Together in Song). I think there are =   plenty worse modern hymns than that one. Some of those with syncopation are too difficult for a congregation to = sing. They are folk song style and may be OK with a solo singer but for a congregation? No. Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:02 PM Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord"     > Sorry, but I don't get why it is bad theology - it is a scriptural text. =   > They've expanded a bit poetically - but it is still directly based on > scripture.... >>       -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005    
(back) Subject: Re: Churches of Christ and instruments From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:20:22 -0500   At 10:09 PM 2005-01-17, you wrote: >Yes. I had a wordy battle with the local Pastor of the "Nondenominational =   >Church of Christ" (How can a church be "non-denominational" if it uses a >title? But that's another issue). I challenged his statement in the local =   >press that he conducted worship exactly as the Disciples did 2000 years >ago, i.e. no mechanical musical instruments and all a cappella singing. >Historically of course he was wrong anyway, as it is recorded that the >disciples attended the Jewish Temple for at least the few decades after >the crucifixion; why not? They were Jews. The Temple used not only a form =   >of organlike instrument but also strings, brass and percussion. It was >only after they were forced to go underground that they did not use >instruments - for obvious reasons. (Reference: Church Music in History = and >Practice: Dr. Douglas, Mus.Bac.) >I asked the Pastor why they did not ride donkeys to church and why they >used electric light since the early Christians had neither motor cars nor =   >electric light. There was no reply. >The name Church of Christ is rather confusing since in this city there is =   >also the Church of Christ, a mainstream denomination. >Bob Elms.   Bob,   Musical instruments were used as part of the temple worship, but not in = the synagogue. The early church was based on synagogue worship, not temple worship. The apostles may have shown up from time to time at the temple, mostly to preach "the Way" according to Christ, they were clearly aware that the temple worship with it's sacrifices and ceremonies were = superceded by Christ who was the supreme sacrifice.   It is interesting reading the Epistles of the New Testament, that there is =   no mention of using musical instruments, directors of music, etc. anywhere. And St. Paul gives numerous directives on worship, but other than singing and giving praise, says nothing.   For the most part, musical instruments in worship is a Western church development. The Eastern or Orthodox churches do not or rarely use instruments in worship.   Arie V.        
(back) Subject: Block Style From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:53:58 -0600   Good Morning, PipeChatters: A few days ago, the question about "styles" of organbuilding came up. In my personal experience, I have read about block style organs in Europe (and wherelse?) that predated having stops on organs. This may have been in the days when organs were given as gifts among kings, dukes, barons, etc., to grace the music in castles. What was the "normal" set of pipes chosen to mount on a block organ? When did this style enter the church buildings? THEN, when did the block practice give way to stops? I believe block style was not on the list, but to expand our understanding of how the organ ensemble originally developed, what variations in the block style were likely to be heard from organ to organ? Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Evolution and disintegration of the Blockwerk From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:08:28 EST   The best English-language introductory explanation of the pre-14th century Blockwerk and its subsequent deconstruction into separate stops in = various cultures can be found in Peter Williams' book, "A New History of the Organ = from the Greeks to the Present Day." It was published by Indiana University = Press in 1980. The book's number is ISBN 0-253-15704-8   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..  
(back) Subject: Free Sheetmusic Library From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:24:16 -0600   >Hi Daniel - this link does not work, at least not at the moment   >"Free Sheetmusic Library" >http://www.bh2000.net/score/   >Amy - In Harrison >will be in Spgfld Friday for Riverdance!   Hello Amy--   It's interesting to know that there are other pipechat members in the region. I'd be interested to know about pipe organs in Harrison. Are there many?   For the topic at hand, I would recommend that you go to www.google.com and type in "Free Sheetmusic Library" exactly as I have it. If your google search-engine works the same as mine, then it will bring the site up as the first listing, title none other than "Free Sheetmusic Library."=20   Perhaps you can get into it this way.   Have other members experienced difficulty getting to the site?   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri  
(back) Subject: Widor Toccata Fingering From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:25:10 -0600   >Malcolm wrote: >> How do most of you finger the Widor? Am I the >> only person who uses 5 4 5 2 1 2 1 3 to avoid a >> stretch?   >I have small hands and can only reach a 9th. Nevertheless I find >5 4 5 3 2 1 2 3 easier.     Likewise, I find the latter fingering easier, also.   Daniel  
(back) Subject: From: "Richard Ditewig" <rwditewig@msn.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:33:30 -0800   any thoughts on the Los Angeles 2004 AGO National? I thought too much = was sandwiched in on each day. Hardly time to breathe, eat, etc. = between events.   and, the trek up to Hollywood Bowl was a fiasco.       Richard Ditewig
(back) Subject: Re: "...people, too, will be burned." From: "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:00:02 -0500   Bob wrote: >I thin Ross is quite correct.   You got a lotta splainin to do, Lucy!   Cole Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio, USA     -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 1/16/2005      
(back) Subject: Cecil Rigby From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:03:13 -0600   Welcome, Cecil Rigby: PipeChat may be like a "box of chocolates," with lots of opinions, and now and then an original idea. <grins> .. . . or an album full of snap shots with a picture here and there. Join in. Give us something fresh to talk about. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs Garland, TX 75045 ..    
(back) Subject: Re: Toccata on "Rejoice, Pure in Heart" From: "Hugh Drogemuller" <hdrogemuller@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:25:14 -0500   At 08:02 AM 18-01-05 -0500, RMB10@aol.com wrote: (SNIP)   > It is now out of print, I am told. >   It still shows as available in the J.W. Pepper on-line catalogue.   HD    
(back) Subject: RE: Toccata on "Rejoice, Pure in Heart" From: "Russ Parker" <rparker@heightscpc.org> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:29:13 -0700   This piece is still in print; now part of the MorningStar catalog. ( = www.morningstarmusic.com). =20 RP  
(back) Subject: WAS "...people, too, will be burned." NOW bad music usage From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:36:25 EST   Let's take this music association thing down a new path. The WORST and funniest car commercial I ever saw was for Infiniti some = years back. Perfectly lovely car, charming actor introducing it....... and Mozart's "Dies Irae" in the background. I almost fell off my chair = laughing. "Buy this car and be damned...." Remember that one? Any others? Victoria  
(back) Subject: Re: Free Sheetmusic Library From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:45:37 -0600   Hello, Daniel, et al: Google brings up the URL, but it will not display. I get error messages. F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Re: L.A. 2004 From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:08:38 EST   Richard:   I experienced the same thing at Seattle 2000, I vowed never to go again. L.A. 2004 was in my own backyard, I stayed home, because I couldn't see spending over $2,000 and being jerked here and there and being hungry, uncomfortable, fatigued. It's not a very enjoyable experience running until you physically collapse. I don't think I missed a thing by not going.   Ron Severin   OMG He spoke the real truth.    
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:19:59 EST   Dear Margo:   It may be scriptural as you say, but it's secular music, melody and accompaniment is pure trash. It just contributes to an emotional lack of any core value. This is precisely the sort of junk that turns serious believers away from the church. They won't endure this for very long.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Appealing To The Lists Wisdom From: "mack02445" <mack02445@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:06:45 -0500   Once again I am turning to the lists for some information. As some of you may already know, I have been in the process of gathering by hook or crook (so to speak) borrowing, etc. copies of the Aeolian-Skinner King of Instruments Series for transfer to cd. I thank all those who have assisted me in the past and present, and if you own any of the disks and would be willing to ship them to me I will make cd's and give you a copy plus pay all the freight each way. If you can, email me and I will provide a list of the volumes I haven't found yet.   My question is on Volume XIII, The Organ in the Mother Church. This is the second volume recorded there Ruth Barrett Phelps is again organist and Frederick Jagel, tenor sings selections also. My question is this, for those who have this album or know its history. The track lists 11 tracks but in the final recording I count only 10. I cannot find the missing track on the record but it is marked on the sleeve and label that it is there. Anyone know why this happened? I have run into this in other albums too but not the Aeolian-Skinner series, until now. I would love to know if you know.   Thanks, Mack in sub freezing Boston -7=B0 wind chill  
(back) Subject: Re: "The Parish Organist" volume sought [x-posted] From: "James Edward Mackay" <ymcmlx@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:29:25 -0600   OK, here I am again. I think my first attempt to post this information blew up, at least that's what an error message said.   Concordia Publishing House still publishes   THE PARISH ORGANIST Vol 9, Wedding Music/General Service Music Item Number: 97-1445 $10.00   CPH is on the WWW at <http://www.cph.org> and on the walkie-talkie at 1 800 325-3040.   J.   -- JAMES EDWARD MACKAY Fargo, North Dakota USA ymcmlx@gmail.com evensong@att.net  
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:15:22 -0600   Excuse me, but what gives you or anyone else the right to call a song "pure trash"? "Here I Am, Lord" is a favorite in my congregations, and far easier to sing than many other contemporary pieces. Isn't it an attitude like this that is pushing the organ out? If you listen to Bach's music you will find elements of secular music of the day, pietistic and emotional lyrics, etc. Why is it all right for Bach but not all right for people today? Alicia Zeilenga       -----Original Message----- From: RonSeverin@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:19:59 EST Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord"   > Dear Margo: > > It may be scriptural as you say, but it's secular music, melody and > accompaniment is pure trash. It just contributes to an emotional lack > of any core value. This is precisely the sort of junk that turns > serious believers away from the church. They won't endure this > for very long. > > Ron Severin > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >      
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:45:56 +0100   Alicia Zeilenga wrote: > Excuse me, but what gives you or anyone else the right to call a > song "pure trash"?   The constitutions of some countries do ("freedom of speech"). Ron says "pure trash", you say "a favorite"; I say both statements are entirely legitimate,   Jarle http://jarle.moo.no      
(back) Subject: Good Music From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:47:30 -0800 (PST)   I'm sure people thought that some of Bach's music was crap too. I = know....unbelievable, but there is proof that people found his chorale = preludes confusing along with many other things. Times were different, = just as they are now. If we have the attitude that its ok to allow only = these "secular sounding church songs" then why even consider getting a = music degree and learning about all the great masters when all we need to = know is playing 3-4 different chords. Many people have become accustomed to these "hymns" (guitar songs) because = there was a period where music was suppose allow the congregation to sing. = (As if hymns weren't good enough.) Hymns survived how many hundreds of = years before then? Speaking as a 26 year old catholic that did not = witness pre-Vatican music or services, this music was created for people = to participate that have never participated before. Easy, simple, = hip....for the 60's and maybe 70's. But what about now? I think its = "dorky" to sing these songs, even stupid at times because i don't feel = like singing Carpenter music. (We've only just Begun.....to Love = God.....sit around the table and love...man) Puke! I had my children's choir sing Here, I am Lord last weekend. I found this = descant in the ritual song hymnal and we tried it out. The kids were so = bored. Isn't this a piece that "speaks to the people?" (A old director = always told me that.....speaks to the people.) Just take a look at this = song and look at all the long notes in it. What congregation holds a note = 4 beats and then waits 4 beats and comes in again. The energy is lost the = second the first phrase starts.   So where do we all stand? I believe that you can mix in some of these = songs occasionally to makes the few who still like them happy. I know my = congregation of 1100 families would rather sing "Praise to the Lord" than = "We are Called" by David Haas. That is basically what it all comes down too: the music the director = likes, and the background of the congregation.           Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St Champaign, IL 61820 217-390-0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net  
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:57:10 -0600   At 03:45 PM 1/18/05, you wrote:     .. Ron says "pure trash", you say "a favorite"; I say both statements are entirely legitimate,   I'll opt to be added to those listing it as "a favorite"...     jch      
(back) Subject: Organ rags From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:09:57 +0100   Chatters,   Searching for new repertoire, I found "Scott Joplin for Organ, arr. Biggs" at Bodensee Musikversand. What are these arrangements like? Can any of you recommend other organ rags? I think it'd be fun to learn some!   Jarle http://jarle.moo.no  
(back) Subject: Re: Good Music From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:09:51 -0800 (PST)     Let me add a few things   Many churches so different music well. Some churches do all music well. = Some try a little of everything and do a poor job, and still other even = fail. Speaking from my congregation, we tried a "contemporary choir" for = 8 years. It didn't work. Five people were interested in singing in it, = most of the time as little as two. (Including myself) Meanwhile the = parish choir that performs mostly the music of Bach and before has 28-35 = members, and the children's choir averages 18-20. This is what works for = my parish.   There are 4 other catholic churches. I know of one that the congregation = likes mostly contemporary. I know of another that tries to do everything = all at once, and not the greatest job of it, and it seems that the = congregation never sings.     Just my two cents!       Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St Champaign, IL 61820 217-390-0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net  
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:17:59 -0500   As one who has never heard the piece, I have to be in yet another = category, "Undecided"! And so it goes on!   Bob Conway   At 04:57 PM 1/18/2005, Jon wrote: >At 03:45 PM 1/18/05, you wrote: > > >. Ron says "pure trash", you say "a favorite"; I say both statements are >entirely legitimate, > >I'll opt to be added to those listing it as "a favorite"... > > >jch > > > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>      
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:22:41 EST   In a message dated 1/18/05 1:18:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, azeilenga@theatreorgans.com writes:   > Excuse me, but what gives you or anyone else the right to call a > song "pure trash"? "Here I Am, Lord" is a favorite in my congregations, =   > and far easier to sing than many other contemporary pieces. Isn't it an =   > attitude like this that is pushing the organ out? If you listen to > Bach's music you will find elements of secular music of the day, > pietistic and emotional lyrics, etc. Why is it all right for Bach but > not all right for people today?   i think the question of whether or not a song is pure trash can be = answered by answering the question, "will this song still be popular in 100 or more =   years?" if not, then it apparently isn't up to "classic" and is therefore =   flushable.   scot  
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:24:01 EST   In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:18:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, conwayb@sympatico.ca writes:   Undecided"! And so it goes on!       after you hear it you cannot be ambivalent. count me OUT! We sang it as an anthem last Sunday as a choir number. dale in Florida  
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:26:23 EST   In a message dated 1/18/05 2:24:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, Keys4bach@aol.com writes:   > after you hear it you cannot be ambivalent.   yeah... it's kinda like barbra streisand. either you love her or you = hate her. no in between... LOL.  
(back) Subject: Re: Churches of Christ and instruments From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:26:53 +0000   On 1/18/05 2:20 PM, "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> wrote:   > Musical instruments were used as part of the temple worship, but not in t= he > synagogue. The early church was based on synagogue worship, not temple > worship. =20   Oh, Arie, that's not been my understanding. Surely the first half of the historic liturgies of the Church (both East and West) are based on synagogu= e worship. But is it not clear that the SECOND half (sacrifice, sacrament, =B3priestly=B2 activity=8Bboth East and West) is based very much on the worship a= t the Temple?   Alan Freed