PipeChat Digest #5099 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005
 
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: Free Sheetmusic Library
  by "David Scambler" <dscambler@bmm.com>
Re: Churches worship form
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Good Music
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Appealing To The Lists Wisdom
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #5098 - 01/18/05
  by "David Baker" <dgb137@mac.com>
Re: Good Music
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #5098 - 01/18/05
  by "David Baker" <dgb137@mac.com>
RE: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "John M. Scott" <jscott@wolfvillebaptist.ca>
Re: Busy AGO Conventions
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: "HERE I AM, LORD"
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
RE: "HERE I AM, LORD"
  by "John M. Scott" <jscott@wolfvillebaptist.ca>
Re: "HERE I AM, LORD"
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Forwarded story from seattlepi.com
  by <pcstorandt@sbcglobal.net>
Re: The ditty
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
blended services
  by "GB" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Re: Forwarded story from seattlepi.com
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: free downloads of Bach's organ music
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: free downloads of Bach's organ music
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
AGO Pedal Specification
  by "David Scambler" <dscambler@bmm.com>
Re: AGO Pedal Specification
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: "Here I Am, Lord"
  by "Bob Elms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
"trash"
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:31:21 -0800 (PST)   If it does survive over 100 years, I'm glad I won't be around to witness = it!   BlueeyedBear@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 1/18/05 1:18:09 PM Pacific = Standard Time, azeilenga@theatreorgans.com writes:   Excuse me, but what gives you or anyone else the right to call a song "pure trash"? "Here I Am, Lord" is a favorite in my congregations, and far easier to sing than many other contemporary pieces. Isn't it an attitude like this that is pushing the organ out? If you listen to Bach's music you will find elements of secular music of the day, pietistic and emotional lyrics, etc. Why is it all right for Bach but not all right for people today?   i think the question of whether or not a song is pure trash can be = answered by answering the question, "will this song still be popular in = 100 or more years?" if not, then it apparently isn't up to "classic" and = is therefore flushable.   scot     Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St Champaign, IL 61820 217-390-0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net  
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:41:14 +0000   On 1/18/05 9:15 PM, "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> wrote:   > "Here I Am, Lord" is a favorite in my congregations, and far easier to si= ng > than many other contemporary pieces.   Alicia, you may be right; I don't know. I don't know the song in question at all.   But the fact that it's =B3a favorite=B2 in some or a great many congregations i= s surely not persuasive; THAT could be said about any number of things. The fact that it=B9s =B3easier to sing=B2 than some others is nice, too=8Bbut, again, that doesn=B9t make it either good or bad. Just convenient.   Alan Freed      
(back) Subject: RE: Free Sheetmusic Library From: "David Scambler" <dscambler@bmm.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:52:27 +1100     Free Sheetmusic Library is no longer online. It had a mirror site which is also disabled. According to information on the mirror site there were copyright issues = with the way Free Sheetmusic was set up. Even if the music of J S Bach is out = of copyright, the actual scanned editions and their artwork may be subject to copyright.   dave  
(back) Subject: Re: Churches worship form From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:52:26 EST   Dear Alan:   During the Regional IX AGO 1983 we attended a temple service in Long Beach. I was very much taken by the familiarity of that service in comparison to the form of the liturgical service I'm used to in RC Episcopal or Lutheran. They even sang the Doxology to old 100th. It was a real eye opener. Before the service Jewish religion was a=20 mystery, after the service I realized where our roots came from.   Ron Severin         But is it not clear that the SECOND half (sacrifice, sacrament, =E2=80=9Cpr= iestly=E2=80=9D=20 activity=E2=80=94both East and West) is based very much on the worship at t= he Temple?=20 =20    
(back) Subject: Re: Good Music From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:02:52 -0600   Scott Montgomery wrote, in part:   > Many people have become accustomed to these "hymns" (guitar songs) > because there was a period where music was suppose allow the > congregation to sing. (As if hymns weren't good enough.) Hymns > survived how many hundreds of years before then?   and I would note that the practice of the congregation singing hymns is not really very long. The longest tradition of this is in Lutheranism, where Luther adapted elements of the Ordinary, propers, and office hymns into chorales for congregational pariticpation, and in in Calvinism, where the Psalter was sung by the congregation to the Genevan tunes. Psalm singing was the norm in Great Britain, under the reformed tradition, but the concept of congregational singing of what we know today as hymns really starts in the early 18th century, with Isaac Watts. "Here I am" would probably have been allowed in Anglicanism, because the words are direct from the Bible.   I understand that in the Roman tradition, congregational singing of what we usually mean when we use hymns in the U.S. first arose in Germany, as a reaction to, or development from, Protestant hymn singing. Certain cathedrals have a mixed history, changing between Evangelical and Catholic one or more times as with the change of Elector, since the tradition in Germany was that the Electorate was officially professed the same faith as the Elector. So, if a Catholic succeeded a Lutheran, the former Lutheran churches now became Catholic, and vice versa. Congregational hymn singing also arose in England during the 19th century, after the Law legalizing the Roman Catholic church was adopted, and when prominent Anglicans from the Oxford movement (such as Cardinal Newman) converted to Catholicism. In the U.S., the movement really started in the early 1900s, with the publication of Montani's St. Gregory, and the competeing St. Basil hymnals.   ns  
(back) Subject: Re: Appealing To The Lists Wisdom From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:09:55 -0500   Dear Mack, I unfortunately have volume #9 and not 13 so I can;t help you. Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "mack02445" <mack02445@comcast.net> To: "Pipoeg-L" <PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu>; "Pipechat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 3:06 PM Subject: Appealing To The Lists Wisdom     > Once again I am turning to the lists for some information. As some of > you may already know, I have been in the process of gathering by hook or > crook (so to speak) borrowing, etc. copies of the Aeolian-Skinner King > of Instruments Series for transfer to cd. I thank all those who have > assisted me in the past and present, and if you own any of the disks and > would be willing to ship them to me I will make cd's and give you a copy > plus pay all the freight each way. If you can, email me and I will > provide a list of the volumes I haven't found yet. > > My question is on Volume XIII, The Organ in the Mother Church. This is > the second volume recorded there Ruth Barrett Phelps is again organist > and Frederick Jagel, tenor sings selections also. My question is this, > for those who have this album or know its history. The track lists 11 > tracks but in the final recording I count only 10. I cannot find the > missing track on the record but it is marked on the sleeve and label > that it is there. Anyone know why this happened? I have run into this > in other albums too but not the Aeolian-Skinner series, until now. I > would love to know if you know. > > Thanks, > Mack in sub freezing Boston -7=B0 wind chill > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >   >  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5098 - 01/18/05 From: "David Baker" <dgb137@mac.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:14:32 -0500   Because I had to take non-music work with me, I didn't get to do as much as I hoped, and I really regret missing the Disney Hall program. I tend to agree that there was maybe too much to do, but it seemed quite well planned. I disagree about the Hollywood Bowl; there was nothing "organic" about it, at all, but for what it was, I thought it was a great program. Traffic getting back was a disaster, yes, but the program itself, no, IMHO. David Baker   On Jan 18, 2005, at 5:31 PM, PipeChat wrote:   > any thoughts on the Los Angeles 2004 AGO National? I thought too much > was sandwiched in on each day. Hardly time to breathe, eat, etc. > between events. > > and, the trek up to Hollywood Bowl was a fiasco    
(back) Subject: Re: Good Music From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:16:16 EST   In a message dated 1/18/05 3:02:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, mjolnir@ticnet.com writes:   > In the U.S., the movement really started in the early 1900s, with the > publication of Montani's St. Gregory, and the competeing St. Basil = hymnals.   excuse me, but the hymn movement started well before that. or did you = forget about southern harmony, virginia harmony, kentucky harmony, the sacred = harp, and many other examples of hymnals which came before 1850?  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5098 - 01/18/05 From: "David Baker" <dgb137@mac.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:17:20 -0500   Opinions are like ... well, you know, and everyone is entitled to their own. How we communicate them on this chat list is subject to regulation, but beyond that, the right derives from the First Amendment. It's called freedom of speech. (Yes, I know this is not a public forum so the First Amendment technically doesn't apply; nonetheless, we all act as if it does and opinions are respected, even when they're wrong.) David Baker   On Jan 18, 2005, at 5:31 PM, PipeChat wrote:   > > Excuse me, but what gives you or anyone else the right to call a > song "pure trash"?    
(back) Subject: RE: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "John M. Scott" <jscott@wolfvillebaptist.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:18:38 -0400   Although I do not like the song myself, and technically, no, I don't think it's very well written, the point of the song is to excite the heart (and mind) of the worshipper.   To state that this song is "pure trash" is one opinion; and one that I presume is based on a solid musical education. The other side of the coin = is that there are many, many people for whom this song means a great deal. To follow the logic, by saying this song is "pure trash" is, in effect, reflecting the same sentiment towards those that appreciate this song, whether intentionally or not.   As an organist and choir director in a church that is struggling with = these same issues, I do not feel I am in any sort of position to judge what does and does not speak to people. I can offer suggestions regarding what I = feel will and wont work in a service setting, but I will not tell someone the piece of music they love so much is 1. musical crap and 2. theologically unsound. All people experience faith differently, and while I agree that most of the music being written/published today is far to "me" oriented, = if this specific song (or any other for that matter) allows someone to open their hearts to God - who am I to stand in the way?   I also agree that these songs do not instill a solid foundation upon which = a lasting faith in God is built (in my opinion). But once again I am faced with the same dilemma. Am I stepping in the way of someone's relationship with God? If I am, I had better get out of the way. Maybe down the road = they will be very excited to know all about the developments of what we = consider traditional hymnody - maybe they won't.     Just my thoughts     john       _____   From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Alan Freed Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:41 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord"     On 1/18/05 9:15 PM, "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> wrote:   > "Here I Am, Lord" is a favorite in my congregations, and far easier to sing > than many other contemporary pieces.   Alicia, you may be right; I don't know. I don't know the song in question at all.   But the fact that it's "a favorite" in some or a great many congregations = is surely not persuasive; THAT could be said about any number of things. The fact that it's "easier to sing" than some others is nice, too-but, again, that doesn't make it either good or bad. Just convenient.   Alan Freed    
(back) Subject: Re: Busy AGO Conventions From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:20:54 -0500   On Jan 18, 2005, at 5:31 PM, PipeChat wrote:   > any thoughts on the Los Angeles 2004 AGO National? I thought too much > was sandwiched in on each day. Hardly time to breathe, eat, etc. > between events. > > and, the trek up to Hollywood Bowl was a fiasco   national conventions have always been like that. my first, in 1982, was = no exception. i had to miss an afternoon and evening of programs just to = catch up on rest. so i missed a little, big deal. what i did get to see = was fantastic. i wouldn't trade the experience for anything.   scot  
(back) Subject: Re: "HERE I AM, LORD" From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:24:36 EST   Hello all   I have been reading some of the responses on this topic and wish to add my =   own opinion.   Many of you who know me well know what kind of music I personally feel "appropriate" and what I feel "inappropriate" for corporate worship. = However, "Here I Am, Lord" is not only a very powerful and meaningful hymn to me = personally but it is also one of the hymns that my congregation sings the most = robustly.   The words are very powerful and, despite it's being written in recent = times, there is nothing wrong with it. I find it beautiful and a powerful = witness for the congregation. It's message is timeless.   Lastly, it can be played more organistic, ie: "less lilting" and more straight forward with a little imagination. A couple of things I do to = make it a little more straight forward and solid: I cut the measure between the = first and second line after the words "my hand will save" (234, rest, I the Lord...) = and it flows much better that way. I also do not hold the final line for as = many rests as are written. Making it have a bit more rhythmic drive, using a stately tempo and playing more with solid chords than lilting, it can be = quite a wonderful hymn. On the last verse, when we get to "whom shall I send?," = start building and then go to a rather full Swell and use the expression thoughtfully, then bring the organ down and down and down to the end, = requiring some thought and practice of course, but doing it that way it makes quite an = impact!   For those of you who are died-in-wool-purists, please don't bee too quick = to write this one completely off just yet. Just my two cents' worth.   -Scott   Scott F. Foppiano Organist and Director of Parish Music and Liturgy Holy Rosary Catholic Church, Memphis, TN scottfop@aol.com In te Domine speravi, non confundar in aeternum.  
(back) Subject: RE: "HERE I AM, LORD" From: "John M. Scott" <jscott@wolfvillebaptist.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:33:52 -0400   Scott - thank you!   ________________________________________ From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of ScottFop@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:25 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: "HERE I AM, LORD"   Hello all   I have been reading some of the responses on this topic and wish to add = my own opinion.=A0=20   Many of you who know me well know what kind of music I personally feel "appropriate" and what I feel "inappropriate" for corporate worship.=A0 However, "Here I Am, Lord" is not only a very powerful and meaningful = hymn to me personally but it is also one of the hymns that my congregation = sings the most robustly.   The words are very powerful and, despite it's being written in recent = times, there is nothing wrong with it.=A0 I find it beautiful and a powerful = witness for the congregation.=A0 It's message is timeless.=A0=20   Lastly, it can be played more organistic, ie: "less lilting" and more straight forward with a little imagination.=A0 A couple of things I do = to make it a little more straight forward and solid:=A0 I cut the measure = between the first and second line after the words "my hand will save" (234, rest, I = the Lord...) and it flows much better that way.=A0 I also do not hold the = final line for as many rests as are written.=A0 Making it have a bit more = rhythmic drive, using a stately tempo and playing more with solid chords than lilting, it can be quite a wonderful hymn.=A0 On the last verse, when we = get to "whom shall I send?," start building and then go to a rather full = Swell and use the expression thoughtfully, then bring the organ down and down = and down to the end, requiring some thought and practice of course, but = doing it that way it makes quite an impact!   For those of you who are died-in-wool-purists, please don't bee too = quick to write this one completely off just yet.=A0 Just my two cents' worth.   -Scott   Scott F. Foppiano=20 Organist and Director of Parish Music and Liturgy Holy Rosary Catholic Church, Memphis, TN=20 scottfop@aol.com In te Domine speravi, non confundar in aeternum.    
(back) Subject: Re: "HERE I AM, LORD" From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:42:31 -0500   In a message dated 1/18/2005 6:24:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, = ScottFop@aol.com writes:   "it is also one of the hymns that my congregation sings the most = robustly."   could it be because the refrain sounds so much like the brady bunch theme?  
(back) Subject: Forwarded story from seattlepi.com From: <pcstorandt@sbcglobal.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:42:54 -0800   Peter (pcstorandt@sbcglobal.net) has sent the following story to you from seattlepi.com.   Comments from Peter: Re: discussion of music in Catholic churches....   ---------------------------------------------------------------   New Year's Eve concert reflects cathedral's spirit of excellence New Year's Eve at St. James Cathedral is such a popular and welcome place to say goodbye to the old year and hello to the new, one can easily forget it was not always so.   * Read the full article at: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/classical/204864_clas24.html   --------------------------------------------------------------- Reviews, previews, critics' picks and pans, at http://www.seattlepi.com/artandlife/    
(back) Subject: Re: The ditty From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:44:18 +0000   On 1/18/05 9:47 PM, "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> wrote:   > The kids were so bored. Isn't this a piece that "speaks to the people?"   Well, a lister (and acquaintance of some years) sent me the music. Made m= e swear not to reveal his identity.   OK; that wasn=B9t difficult to evaluate.   Sorry, Alicia!   Alan Freed  
(back) Subject: blended services From: "GB" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:02:55 -0600   HI List, Here is my two cents worth. I am the organist in a small UMC in central Illinois. The minister wants to sings songs that have the words projected on the wall from the overhead projector. He leads them with = some awful tape and all that is heard is a slight mumbling from the = congregation. We use the organ some and everyone sings. What is that telling you? I can't wait until he is moved. He told us last Sunday that we need to = step into the 21 century and not complain about what he wants to do. I = mentioned (during church and just after he said what he did) that I don't appreciate anyone telling me what to believe and what I should think. "What happened to free will here?" Oh my, you would have thought I had shot and arrow right through his heart. lol Burning at the stake is the next thing that will happen to me I am sure. lol I just hope that this "fad" will pass and hymns will be sung on a regular basis once again. Gary    
(back) Subject: Re: Forwarded story from seattlepi.com From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:15:00 +0000   On 1/18/05 11:42 PM, "pcstorandt@sbcglobal.net" <pcstorandt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:   > Comments from Peter: > Re: discussion of music in Catholic churches....   Peter: Thank you very much. I used to hang around St. James' about 55 years ago. I'd love to see the place again, now that it has (obviously) come alive!   Alan Freed    
(back) Subject: Re: free downloads of Bach's organ music From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:07:38 +0800   Could spend twenty bucks and get it all at http://www.cdsheetmusic.com/ (Ba= ch complete organ works: http://www.cdsheetmusic.com/bachorgantoc.html) ...= or buy the books.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <docamy@alltel.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: free downloads of Bach's organ music Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:54:59 -0600   > Hi Daniel - this link does not work, at least not at the moment >=20 > "Free Sheetmusic Library" > http://www.bh2000.net/score/ >=20 > Thanks to everyone else who replied. If she were actually going to play = the > music in a concert I wouldn't mind purchacing a good copy. >=20 > Amy - In Harrison > will be in Spgfld Friday for Riverdance! >=20 >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>       -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: Re: free downloads of Bach's organ music From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:17:15 -0600   At 9:07 AM +0800 1/19/05, Jan Nijhuis wrote: >Could spend twenty bucks and get it all at >http://www.cdsheetmusic.com/ (Bach complete organ works: >http://www.cdsheetmusic.com/bachorgantoc.html) ... or buy the books.   Or get it at the OHS store for 18.95 http://www.ohscatalog.com/sheetmusoncd.html   Orders placed via the OHS store also help the OHS in their goals of preserving and documenting historic organs..   David  
(back) Subject: AGO Pedal Specification From: "David Scambler" <dscambler@bmm.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:33:54 +1100     I often see people referring to the AGO Pedal Specification. But I have never seen it. Where can I find the specification?   dave  
(back) Subject: Re: AGO Pedal Specification From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:35:43 EST     In a message dated 1/18/05 7:29:23 PM, dscambler@bmm.com writes:     > > I often see people referring to the AGO Pedal Specification. But I have > never seen it. > Where can I find the specification? > > dave > >   www.agohq.org       Gregory Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net  
(back) Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord" From: "Bob Elms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:46:47 +0800   Oh come on Ron! There are plenty worse than that one! Here they still sing =   "Let there be Peace on earth" and "Will you love me?" The former was on the hit parade about 35 years ago but the Catholic = Church hasn't caught up with that yet! Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 3:19 AM Subject: Re: "Here I Am, Lord"     > Dear Margo: > > It may be scriptural as you say, but it's secular music, melody and > accompaniment is pure trash. It just contributes to an emotional lack > of any core value. This is precisely the sort of junk that turns > serious believers away from the church. They won't endure this > for very long. > > Ron Severin > >       -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005    
(back) Subject: "trash" From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:56:31 -0600   Ron said, "It may be scriptural as you say, but it's secular music, = melody and accompaniment is pure trash. It just contributes to an emotional lack of any core value. This is precisely the sort of junk that turns serious believers away from the church. They won't endure this for very long." ___________   Ron, I'm sorry, but I believe at the very least your remarks need to be prefaced with, "In my opinion." Many people find this hymn to be lovely = and meaningful, even moving, as well as scripturally based. It's fine with me if it doesn't float your boat, but to write off, by implication, any one = who likes it as musical idiots is unfair. Nor do I think--MY opinion--it will "turn serious believers away from the church."   I'm with Alicia and Margo on this one.   Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines