PipeChat Digest #5112 - Monday, January 24, 2005
 
Re: PipeChat Digest #5111 - 01/24/05
  by "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net>
Re: Weather
  by "Daniel Hopkins" <danielwh@ns.sympatico.ca>
Endowment
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
RE: Question re hybrid organs
  by "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com>
Rick Warren and music in worship
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Endowed organs
  by "Ned Benson" <nbenson@stjohnschurch.org>
RE: Rick Warren and music in worship
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
RE: Rick Warren and music in worship
  by "John M. Scott" <jscott@wolfvillebaptist.ca>
Re: Endowment
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: Rick Warren and music in worship
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
Re: Rick Warren and music in worship
  by "Cecil Rigby" <rigrax@earthlink.net>
Re: Rick Warren and music in worship
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5111 - 01/24/05 From: "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:50:08 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)   Hi List,=0D =0D I was watching an interesting video clip or two on the Virgil Fox lega= cy web site the other day, which you may also view by scrolling down the following page:=0D =0D http://www.virgilfoxlegacy.com/chronology.html=0D =0D In particular I watched the two videos listed under May 3, 1974 with Virgil playing with Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops. Music aside, I h= ave heard a story concerning Virgil giving an encore performance after playin= g not a solo recital, but with an orchestra... Were these two selections performed under a similar situation?=0D =0D Best,=0D =0D - Nathan=0D =0D P.S. - I don't think Perpetual Motion for pedal would be good material fo= r Church. (C:
(back) Subject: Re: Weather From: "Daniel Hopkins" <danielwh@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:59:33 -0400   Right now I think I live up North , but in reality I live In Nova = Scotia I will take pictures today of the drifts and the banks Danielwh
(back) Subject: Endowment From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:25:52 -0600   I wouldn't swear to it, but the big A-S (IV/97) at Trinity English = Lutheran in Fort Wayne I believe is endowed.   BTW, the instrument was just refurbished by Schantz, and I hear reports = that it is more glorious than ever. This refurbishment was of chests and = pipes; the console and relay system was redone a few years back. Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: RE: Question re hybrid organs From: "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:42:14 -0500   I have no problems keeping digital in tune with pipes, biggest problem = is keeping the three pipe divisions (2 chambers, 1 exposed) in tune with = each other.   Tom Hoehn, Organist Roaring 20's Pizza & Pipes, Ellenton, FL (substitute - 4/42 Wurlitzer) First United Methodist Church, Clearwater, FL (4/9?- = Rodgers/Ruffati/Wicks) Manasota/OATOS/HiloBay/CIC-ATOS/VotS-ATOS/DTOS http://theatreorgans.com/tomhoehn http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOUploads/   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Glenda > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:26 PM > To: 'PipeChat' > Subject: Question re hybrid organs >=20 >=20 > I am curious about something. On these hybrid organs (i.e., with some > pipes and some electronic stops), are there any chronic problems with > keeping the two different genres in tune with each other? I am > particularly interested in situations where the building isn't > constantly kept within a certain range of temperature (i.e., the = heat/AC > is kept off when church services aren't being held). >=20 > If any of you are shipping snow this way, it hasn't arrived. >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > Glenda Sutton > gksjd85@direcway.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20 >=20 >=20      
(back) Subject: Rick Warren and music in worship From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:10:09 -0600   Dear Chatters--   My pastor recently forwarded myself (organist), the choir director, and a small team of individuals known at the "Worship Support Team" an article about music as a drawing card for "target audiences" by Rick Warren. Mr. Warren has written such well-known tomes such as "The Purpose Driven Life/Church", etc. =20   He asks for feedback, specifically on the question of "is there such a thing as sacred music?"   I have plenty of feedback to give him, and will, but I'd like to hear your opinions on the article and his question, if any of you can spare the time to read it. I've been watching closely conversations that brush up against this topic recently, and have quoted many of you in discussion with the Pastor and our "Worship Support Team."   I am organist at Grace United Methodist Church, in Springfield, Missouri. We have a congregation of about 300, with average attendance for one weekly service at about 150. Our 1920's 'suppressed gothic' building has a sanctuary that seats 1000, and the organ is a 1979 neo-Baroque Reuter. I suppose we're loosely liturgical, and we do have a nice volunteer choir, augmented by several local professional singers, and two university music students on a participation scholarship, which is endowed. =20   Your comments are eagerly awaited.   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri  
(back) Subject: Endowed organs From: "Ned Benson" <nbenson@stjohnschurch.org> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:20:18 -0800   Our current organ is a dying Heinz 57, but there are 2 small endowments of @ $10K each designated for the maintenance and enhancement of the instrument.   Together they have generated the $ necessary for tuning and repair, though not enough to deal with the instrument's problems. Once we have had rebuilt the =C6olian-Skinner we just purchased, the tuning will be the =   only draw on the fund, which should then grow with the market so that in 50-75 years when the slider chests need some work, the $ should be there. -- Dr. Ned H. Benson St. John's Presbyterian Church 1070 West Plumb Lane Reno, Nevada 89509 http://www.stjohnschurch.org    
(back) Subject: RE: Rick Warren and music in worship From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:40:39 -0600     Of course. I foolishly neglected to include the link. =20   Here it is.   http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/default.asp?id=3D190&artid=3D2924&expand=3D1   Best--   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri   -----Original Message----- From: Mark Nelson [mailto:mark.edward.nelson@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:33 AM To: Daniel Hancock Subject: Re: Rick Warren and music in worship   I'd be interested in seeing the article.   Mark Nelson     On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:10:09 -0600, Daniel Hancock <dhancock@brpae.com> wrote: > Dear Chatters-- >=20 > My pastor recently forwarded myself (organist), the choir director, and > a small team of individuals known at the "Worship Support Team" an > article about music as a drawing card for "target audiences" by Rick > Warren. Mr. Warren has written such well-known tomes such as "The > Purpose Driven Life/Church", etc. >=20 > He asks for feedback, specifically on the question of "is there such a > thing as sacred music?" >=20 > I have plenty of feedback to give him, and will, but I'd like to hear > your opinions on the article and his question, if any of you can spare > the time to read it. I've been watching closely conversations that > brush up against this topic recently, and have quoted many of you in > discussion with the Pastor and our "Worship Support Team." >=20 > I am organist at Grace United Methodist Church, in Springfield, > Missouri. We have a congregation of about 300, with average attendance > for one weekly service at about 150. Our 1920's 'suppressed gothic' > building has a sanctuary that seats 1000, and the organ is a 1979 > neo-Baroque Reuter. I suppose we're loosely liturgical, and we do have > a nice volunteer choir, augmented by several local professional singers, > and two university music students on a participation scholarship, which > is endowed. >=20 > Your comments are eagerly awaited. >=20 > Daniel Hancock > Springfield, Missouri >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20 >  
(back) Subject: RE: Rick Warren and music in worship From: "John M. Scott" <jscott@wolfvillebaptist.ca> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:07:49 -0400   It seems to me Mr. Warren managed to say nothing at all!     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Hancock Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:41 PM To: Mark Nelson; pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: RE: Rick Warren and music in worship     Of course. I foolishly neglected to include the link.   Here it is.   http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/default.asp?id=3D190&artid=3D2924&expand=3D1   Best--   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri   -----Original Message----- From: Mark Nelson [mailto:mark.edward.nelson@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:33 AM To: Daniel Hancock Subject: Re: Rick Warren and music in worship   I'd be interested in seeing the article.   Mark Nelson     On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:10:09 -0600, Daniel Hancock <dhancock@brpae.com> wrote: > Dear Chatters-- > > My pastor recently forwarded myself (organist), the choir director, and > a small team of individuals known at the "Worship Support Team" an > article about music as a drawing card for "target audiences" by Rick > Warren. Mr. Warren has written such well-known tomes such as "The > Purpose Driven Life/Church", etc. > > He asks for feedback, specifically on the question of "is there such a > thing as sacred music?" > > I have plenty of feedback to give him, and will, but I'd like to hear > your opinions on the article and his question, if any of you can spare > the time to read it. I've been watching closely conversations that > brush up against this topic recently, and have quoted many of you in > discussion with the Pastor and our "Worship Support Team." > > I am organist at Grace United Methodist Church, in Springfield, > Missouri. We have a congregation of about 300, with average attendance > for one weekly service at about 150. Our 1920's 'suppressed gothic' > building has a sanctuary that seats 1000, and the organ is a 1979 > neo-Baroque Reuter. I suppose we're loosely liturgical, and we do have > a nice volunteer choir, augmented by several local professional singers, > and two university music students on a participation scholarship, which > is endowed. > > Your comments are eagerly awaited. > > Daniel Hancock > Springfield, Missouri > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Re: Endowment From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:18:20 EST   The Princeton Seminary Chapel Organ was endowed.   And it is glorious!   Neil by the very cold Bay  
(back) Subject: Re: Rick Warren and music in worship From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:22:44 -0600 (GMT-06:00)   Interesting... I am about to try and guide my church through a = re-evaluation of worship, including Sunday morning schedule and number and = types of services. Being scared to death about the potential derailment = that is possible in any such discussion, I've been doing a lot of = searching and reading.   There is such a thing as sacred (if nothing else, as the opposite of = secular) texts. No question. (And here I'm avoiding value judgments = about whether the text treats the religious subject with the proper = respect and perspective.) Now, in the area of musical style you might = argue, since so many churches have opted to bring the secular musical = styles into worship. I'm not saying I'm against this, since I think = whatever style you use the important thing is to evaluate the text = carefully and choose the best-crafted music you can in that style.   In my research, I have come across many books and websites on worship and = music. One interesting writer would say to this Mr. Rick Warren is that: = as soon as you say the words "music as a drawing card for 'target = audiences'", you are not talking worship, you are talking IDOLATRY since = your decisions are NOT being made about what God wants, but what YOU want = (a specific musical style, bigger crowds.) In other words, musical = choices (including styles) are subservient to the choices you make about = worshiping God in the truest way. As soon as you turn it around and start = making choices to run your worship to please people (for example, those = who don't go to church and haven't even shown up yet at yours!) you're in = trouble.   Chuck Peery St. Louis       -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Hancock <dhancock@brpae.com> Sent: Jan 24, 2005 10:10 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Rick Warren and music in worship   Dear Chatters--   My pastor recently forwarded myself (organist), the choir director, and a small team of individuals known at the "Worship Support Team" an article about music as a drawing card for "target audiences" by Rick Warren. Mr. Warren has written such well-known tomes such as "The Purpose Driven Life/Church", etc.   He asks for feedback, specifically on the question of "is there such a thing as sacred music?"   I have plenty of feedback to give him, and will, but I'd like to hear your opinions on the article and his question, if any of you can spare the time to read it. I've been watching closely conversations that brush up against this topic recently, and have quoted many of you in discussion with the Pastor and our "Worship Support Team."   I am organist at Grace United Methodist Church, in Springfield, Missouri. We have a congregation of about 300, with average attendance for one weekly service at about 150. Our 1920's 'suppressed gothic' building has a sanctuary that seats 1000, and the organ is a 1979 neo-Baroque Reuter. I suppose we're loosely liturgical, and we do have a nice volunteer choir, augmented by several local professional singers, and two university music students on a participation scholarship, which is endowed.   Your comments are eagerly awaited.   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>      
(back) Subject: Re: Rick Warren and music in worship From: "Cecil Rigby" <rigrax@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:44:47 -0500   Hi Daniel-   I hope your pastor is asking for feedback because he's not decided on whether Warren' (and others' similar) approach is right. There's very = little that Rick Warren says with which I can agree with as a Calvinist (maybe saying that upfront will help you understand the rest of my response).   Instead of "is there such a thing as sacred music?" which is rhetorical = and semantic at best, the real question should be "How does Scripture say we should worship?" (There are of course, sacred *texts,* but there are no extant examples of the music they were used with that I kow of.)   But there's another question that must be answered before "How does Scripture say we should worship?" It is, "What is the purpose of our worship service?" How do your pastor = and church leaders answer that question? You say your group is called the "Worship Support Team," so I assume worship, having its various parts, is the intended focus of your services. But the only Scriptural "target audience" I know of, as a Calvinist, for any Christian *worship* service = is God Himself, offered by a congregation of *already* professing and confessing believers.   Debating the kinds of music used in a service is a useless and fruitless exercise if the focus is on getting numbers, beefing up a youth program, making new converts, etc., instead of helping believers grow in their discipleship and relationship to God through worship.   What your pastor is actually asking is to know your group's *personally preferred* styles of music. Our personal preferences have nothing to do = with worship since they have their origin in self-will to start with, rather = than a desire to "worship in spirit and in truth."   Anything, music included, that is used as a "drawing card for target audiences" renders it incapable of being considered sacred in any way to start with because it is consecrated to something other than God to start with, and has nothing to do with Scripturally-defined worship by = definition.   By way of suggestion, why not offer your pastor some of the well-written articles you can find on this subject at http://the-highway.com If you use the Search link on the main page and enter Peter Masters music in the search box you'll get a long list of available articles. His essays are certainly the tip of the iceberg on = this topic.   Cecil Rigby rigrax@earthlink.net (personal) Pendleton Presby. Ch. (USA) Pendleton, SC   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:10 AM Subject: Rick Warren and music in worship     Dear Chatters--   My pastor recently forwarded myself (organist), the choir director, and a small team of individuals known at the "Worship Support Team" an article about music as a drawing card for "target audiences" by Rick Warren. Mr. Warren has written such well-known tomes such as "The Purpose Driven Life/Church", etc.   He asks for feedback, specifically on the question of "is there such a thing as sacred music?"   I have plenty of feedback to give him, and will, but I'd like to hear your opinions on the article and his question, if any of you can spare the time to read it. I've been watching closely conversations that brush up against this topic recently, and have quoted many of you in discussion with the Pastor and our "Worship Support Team."   I am organist at Grace United Methodist Church, in Springfield, Missouri. We have a congregation of about 300, with average attendance for one weekly service at about 150. Our 1920's 'suppressed gothic' building has a sanctuary that seats 1000, and the organ is a 1979 neo-Baroque Reuter. I suppose we're loosely liturgical, and we do have a nice volunteer choir, augmented by several local professional singers, and two university music students on a participation scholarship, which is endowed.   Your comments are eagerly awaited.   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>      
(back) Subject: Re: Rick Warren and music in worship From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:45:23 EST     > "music as a drawing card for 'target audiences'",   Actually, if I may so bold, this is exactly RIGHT ON TARGET. But it lies =   squarely with Chuck's viewpoint (albeit I doubt he views it this way, = yet).   Who, in fact, IS the target audience? Seems to me, you answered it in = saying God should be. While we aren't attempting to draw God toward us, it's = quite the opposite, but I hope I make my point.   Having said all that, I think there is a very important concept of "authenticity" that needs to be addressed in worship circles. A more = liturgical (learned?) approach to worship may not be authentic in all situations, nor = does a more "contemporary" (for lack of a better term) approach fit every = congregation.   My particular situation relishes a more traditional approach to worship (albeit a Methodist one), with a 3-second reverberation, tracker organ, 2 steinways, auditioned choir, the whole 9 yards. This may not work in = other places, nor should it.   When the "meta-church" style (big church -- small groups and clusters) was =   touted a few years ago, so many pastors and committees were hailing it as = "the way to go". I tried to get my point across that it may NOT work in every situation. (In point of fact, the Church has been doing this for = centuries.) Nor should it.   As long as the music is good music, and the texts reflect the worshiping community's faith system, the musical and worship style of said community = can be wholly acceptable to God; thus authentic and moving for those present.   Bottom line, does it ring true? Or is it empty?   Neil by the Frozen Bay