PipeChat Digest #5117 - Wednesday, January 26, 2005
 
Re: Question re hybrid organs
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Toccata
  by "GB" <gblack@ocslink.com>
RE: Question re hybrid organs
  by "Vincent S. Parks, III" <vparks@houston.rr.com>
suggestions for antiphonal ranks?
  by "tom carter" <tcarter215@yahoo.com>
RE: Question re hybrid organs
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: suggestions for antiphonal ranks?
  by <OrganMD@aol.com>
Re: Question re hybrid organs
  by "Travis L. Evans" <tlevans95@charter.net>
Re: Rick Warren and music in worship
  by <SWF12262@aol.com>
RE: suggestions for antiphonal ranks?
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Temperature and reeds (was hybrid organs)
  by <SWF12262@aol.com>
worship
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
RE: suggestions for antiphonal ranks?
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Pedal 64 at SYDNEY TOWN HALL on Organs and Organists online
  by "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
RE: Pedal 64 at SYDNEY TOWN HALL on Organs and Organists online
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: suggestions for antiphonal ranks?
  by "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk>
RE: suggestions for antiphonal ranks?
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:56:47 -0600   Glenda: The comments were made based on experience with the hybrid organ in my own church, especially with the organist who had troubles with "the digital technology." <grins> Take a deep breath or a long swig and relax. > . . . if a church had a hybrid organ and sought to keep > the pipes and digitals in tune with each other by way of > a tuning knob, is it possible that organ-piano duets might > not be possible on days of extreme temperature changes, > or when the organ has not been tuned regularly? The simplistic answer is a very tight-squeeze, "yes." > And per Russ Greene, there could be (or have been > documented) problems in the balance between the > digital and pipe stops? That answer should be a definite "no." The balance between pipes and digital voices should have been resolved when the tonal finishing was done. So, balance stays the same; its tuning that changes. When a cold spell comes along, the wind blown flues will go flat. Most of the reeds will stay about where they were, if they are made of good stuff and have been properly voiced in the room. When the heat waves set in, the wind blown flues go sharp. Again, the reeds may stay close to their properly tuned pitches. The incident at my church was close on the heels of having a new piano tuner work on our piano for our production of Handel's "Messiah." I am told that the pianist was dismayed when she came for dress rehearsal on Saturday morning, and the church odered another tuner in to "fix" the tuning before sunup Sunday morning. I cannot vouch for the quality of that job, but one week later the organist (the one that had trouble with the simple knob-turn tuning task for the digital stops) was upset that, after I tuned tuned the digital stops for her, in her opinion, the wind blown pipes were not out of tune with the piano. That may have been a true statement. We were going to start the evening prelude momentarily, and I did not have time to verify any of this stuff beyond this one task. The room was 4 degrees F low, (66 degrees F) and the heat was on. By the time the service was in full swing, I heard no out-of-tuneness. When the service was over, I checked the thermometer, and it was now 74 degrees F. In less than one hour, the room temperature had risen from 66 F to 74 F, and the tuning was not changed quite a bit from where we had started out, except for the temperature effects on the wind blown pipes. In this situation, the tuning sensor gadget would have been most helpful, but it would not have changed the organist's perceptions at the time I brought the digital stops in tune with the flues. The sensor would have tracked the increase in heat (going more sharp all the while) and adjusted the digital voices rightly. In the years I have been tuning this organ, I have never had any problems in being tuned with the piano, and our work is done independently of each other. So, I can't tell you what happened to the piano that time. One thing (only psychologically related) that might be of interest was the the organist did not like the Swell string celeste after I tuned the digital stops to the wind blown flues. I changed nothing on the string celeste, so I think she wanted to hear something that she did not like, and I took the rap in disciplined silence. This organ was built of organ control technologies that are now old, and at that time we did not have the temperature sensor available. It is available on new organs, today, and we may be able to get an upgrade for this edition of the software and hardware, but I won't count on it. Our church is about five years from gaining the momentum of property management to allow suitable fiscal appropriations so the organ can be maintained properly. Since this is my own church, I don't mind telling you these things, but I won't admit to such foul play in another church. <grins> These are the facts of life as we experience them. This technology would not be used on a new project. Rest assured. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Toccata From: "GB" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:36:52 -0600   Hi list, I just ran across the Toccata in D Minor by Gordon Balch Nevin. What a riot! Maybe some of you know this? The middle section (andante) = is something to behold indeed. lol The music was written in the late 19th Cent. and is rather "sappy" by today's standards but sounds pretty good on my 1906 Estey here at home. Gary    
(back) Subject: RE: Question re hybrid organs From: "Vincent S. Parks, III" <vparks@houston.rr.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:09:57 -0600   Does anyone have an answer to the question from Russ regarding reverberation?   I remember hearing Hector Olivera play a dedication concert on a combo job in town a few years ago. (I think it was about 12 ranks of pipes and a 4 manual digital job.) The tuning was fine, but the acoustical effects were ridiculous. The room is relatively dry so pipe produced sound stopped promptly while the digital sound had an enormous and exaggerated amount of reverberation. Even a novice seated nearby remarked that the sound was peculiar "...when Hector let go of everything some things hung around too long". Organists actually got to chuckling at how detached playing led to some sounds decaying rapidly while others hung on past the next few notes.   Vince Parks   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Russ Greene Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:28 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs     The hybrid installations which I am most familiar with have minimal problems with tuning - sensors adjust the digital voices and that's pretty much that.   However, several of them have nasty problems with acoustics, particularly in "dead" buildings. The digital side often has enhanced acoustics, adding reverb, etc. to simulate a more live environment; equivalent enhancement is seldom practical on the pipe side, so the pipe voices and digital voices sound like they are in different buildings.   In one of our local installations, actually the home church of our only Rodgers dealer, the digital voices sound rich and full and the pipes (principal chorus only, I think) sound like a loud accordian.   How can this problem be addressed?   TTFN, Russ Greene     On Jan 23, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Glenda wrote:   > I am curious about something. On these hybrid organs (i.e., with some   > pipes and some electronic stops), are there any chronic problems with > keeping the two different genres in tune with each other? I am > particularly interested in situations where the building isn't > constantly kept within a certain range of temperature (i.e., the > heat/AC is kept off when church services aren't being held).     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>        
(back) Subject: suggestions for antiphonal ranks? From: "tom carter" <tcarter215@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:14:02 -0800 (PST)   Hi all As we were discussing the progress of the installation of our new Allen = Q-385, my pastor took me by surprise when he stated his desire to have = speaking pipework - what would amount to an antiphonal division of 8-10 = ranks (unenclosed, presumably). Knowing that we're most likely to use the = 'American Classic' tonal style/stoplist of the organ, and that the = instrument's primary purpose is to accompany Masses, I'm interested to = hear what sort of stoplist other list members would suggest....the room = seats 1200 (approx 900 in attendance per Mass), has close to 5 seconds = reverb, pipes would be placed in balcony in rear of church. Many thanks, Tom Carter St. Isaac Jogues Parish Marlton, NJ       __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: RE: Question re hybrid organs From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:19:12 -0600   There has been quite a bit of discussion about hybrid organs in relation to digital-pipe combinations. The term hybrid organ has been around a long time and has also referred to Heinz variety organs were different builders parts were intermixed in the same organ. In this case the hybrid instrument would be a completely pipe instrument with a mix of components.   jch      
(back) Subject: Re: suggestions for antiphonal ranks? From: <OrganMD@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:20:06 EST   For an unenclosed antiphonal I might think along these lines. Diapason 8 Octave 4 Fifteenth 2 Mixture IV Bourdon 8 Spitzflote 4 Trumpet 8 Trumpet en chamade 8 If space permits, extend the Bourdon to 16' so as to have a pedal stop in =   the Antiphonal. Bill  
(back) Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs From: "Travis L. Evans" <tlevans95@charter.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:20:01 -0600   I personally feel the accoustics should match that of how the pipework sounds in the room. When I started at my current posistion, the = accoustics of the digital stops was such that it made it very obvious that they were digital. As I learned how thigns worked on the Allen Console controler I greatly reduced it only having a tiny bit of blending of the digital = voices. Now it all seems to fit the room much better. I've played another organ that it was obvious the digital ranks had the reverb cranked up on them. From what I gather all makers of digital organs can have the accoustical augmentations adjusted to make it less obvious of the difference.   Travis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vincent S. Parks, III" <vparks@houston.rr.com> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:09 PM Subject: RE: Question re hybrid organs     > Does anyone have an answer to the question from Russ regarding > reverberation? > > I remember hearing Hector Olivera play a dedication concert on a combo > job in town a few years ago. (I think it was about 12 ranks of pipes > and a 4 manual digital job.) The tuning was fine, but the acoustical > effects were ridiculous. The room is relatively dry so pipe produced > sound stopped promptly while the digital sound had an enormous and > exaggerated amount of reverberation. Even a novice seated nearby > remarked that the sound was peculiar "...when Hector let go of > everything some things hung around too long". Organists actually got to > chuckling at how detached playing led to some sounds decaying rapidly > while others hung on past the next few notes. > > Vince Parks      
(back) Subject: Re: Rick Warren and music in worship From: <SWF12262@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:34:49 EST   Dear Pipechatters, I've shared my philosophy of sacred music at some length before, but = here's a brief summary: just as some vessels (chalice, paten, etc.) are set = apart for ritual use, and some clothing (cassock and surplice, chasuble and = stole) are set apart for ritual use, so should some music be for ritual use, = music of a style and substance that sets it apart from the secular. For me, this = is the meaning of sacred -- that which is set apart from the everyday for = the worship of God. While praise bands and music based on popular secular = models may reach many, I question whether such media adequately communicate and reinforce the message. For me, there's a definite cognitive dissonance = hearing sacred texts set to rock or pop style music, sort of like hearing = Pavarotti sing Sinatra -- kind of silly. Regarding the alleged smaller number of worshipers who value a more traditional form of worship, are they to be = discarded? Is their faith less "relevant" than that of those who can only be moved by drums and electric guitars? While those who like the "new stuff" might = find traditional sacred music boring (they're not really listening, in my = opinion), those who value tradition, who equate a certain sound and style with = worship, find the offerings of praise bands and contemporary ensembles to be an overwhelming distraction from, rather than a means to, worship. = Cognitive dissonance, once again! I suppose we've all been guilty of "marketing" = church music -- haven't we all, at some time, chosen one hymn over another because the =   congregation likes it? Or played a postlude we think will be a crowd = pleaser? However, if this sort of populism becomes the driving force behind a = music program, I think music becomes the handmaid of mammon instead of the = handmaid of liturgy. I don't sense the awe, the mystery, the transcendence in = "sacred pop." Worship may be entertaining, but it must never be reduced to entertainment. Just a few thoughts, for what they're worth. Steve Folkers (that pesky Presbypiscometholic) Steven Weyand Folkers Director of Music St. Lambert RC Church Skokie, IL USA    
(back) Subject: RE: suggestions for antiphonal ranks? From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:42:19 +1300   > I'm interested to hear what sort of stoplist other list members would suggest....the room seats 1200 (approx 900 in attendance per Mass), has close to 5 seconds reverb, pipes would be placed in balcony in rear of church.=A0=20     I'd suggest a Diapason chorus based on an 8ft Open Diapason of 6.25" = scale at CC, all on 4" wind, voiced and scaled TCLewis would have done in the 1880s.   8 Open Diapason 8 Stopped Diapason (big scale, metal) 4 Principal 2 Fifteenth .. Mixture II (19.22) .. Mixture III (22.26.29)   I'd wouldn't worry about reeds, 16fts or any of that other stuff. It = seems you need a good solid chorus for accompanying singing, with the ability = to devise several smaller choruses. I'd suggest the big scale and high-ish pressure to avoid screech and get the incredibly-rich sound Lewis used = to create wide mouths, low cut-up, some nicking, as much heavy spotted = metal as possible to develop ringing tone with harshness and to cope with the reverberation. =A0 Just my thoughts.   Ross   =20    
(back) Subject: Re: Temperature and reeds (was hybrid organs) From: <SWF12262@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:46:36 EST   The 17-rank organ I play has one reed rank, an 8' trumpet extended to 16' =   and 4', and available on the Swell and Great (and at 16' in the Pedal). = This rebuilt composite organ was installed in 1990 or '91, and it is only = within the last year or three that the reed has stayed in tune with itself and = the rest of the instrument! Prior to that, it was going off (like aging milk) a = few weeks after tuning. Nothing has changed environmentally; we are still heated and air conditioned, as we were at installation. We did replace = the blower with a larger model, but the trumpet was behaving quite nicely long = before we went from a 1.5 HP to a 3 HP motor. Perhaps that finicky reed finally =   feels at home! Steve Folkers Steven Weyand Folkers Director of Music St. Lambert RC Church Skokie, IL USA      
(back) Subject: worship From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:58:30 -0600   Steven Skinner said: Do I expect the other church to take its cues from = us? Hardly. _____- Well said, Steven. I love pipe organs as much as anyone, but I do not understand the attitude that seems to assume that God gave rules for = worship and liturgy, including detailed stop lists for pipe organs on the back of the Ten Commandments Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai.   Worship always has a cultural component. No matter how much one loves the high liturgy of the western European tradition, surely we do not expect = that to reproduce well and meaningfully in jungles of Africa, the villages of India and China, the plateaus of South America, etc. That brings us back = to the colonialism of the 19th century. Even in a given culture and place, there is great variety. I can worship here in my small town of 3,000 with Catholic liturgy, with midwestern "Methodism," with Pentecostals, with contemporary praise services, et. al. Some enhance my worship of God more than others, but that doesn't mean everybody can or should feel the way I do.   Yes, worship is God-centered, not self-centered. Historically, Christian worship was more for believers than a means of entry into the church for non-believers, but I'm not sure that argument is as culturally strong = today, at least in the USA. I see nothing wrong with making our worship services accessible to people where they are and in forms that have some meaning to them. The apostle Paul, after all, said something along the lines of "I become all things to all people that I might by all means win a few."   I am well aware that in some communions, there is a theological understanding that the liturgy of the church comes--in some sense--from = God, but even there the liturgy changes over the century, and is not constant.   I would not question anybody's desire to worship in a particular order or liturgy of worship, nor would I question the pursuit of excellence in a particular tradition; I do question the practice of assuming that = tradition must be held to at all costs and that those who don't follow it are = somehow inferior or misinformed or deprived.   Okay. I'm off MY soapbox now!     Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: RE: suggestions for antiphonal ranks? From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:05:43 +1300     > as much heavy spotted metal as possible to develop ringing tone with harshness and to cope with the reverberation. =A0 I made a typo: that should be "without harshness" of course. Sorry. Ross      
(back) Subject: Pedal 64 at SYDNEY TOWN HALL on Organs and Organists online From: "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:35:51 +0200   Dear List,   In the light of recent discussion a friend of mine in Autralia has sent me = a recording made some years ago of Michael Dudman demonstrating the Pedal = 64' reed on the Sydney Town Hall organ. It is a small file, and not quite the same as hearing it in the flesh, but it gives you a fair idea of the = sound. It comes from an old cassette recording and I haven't edited it in any way =   but it is to be found at http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/ on the DOWNLOADS NEW ADDITIONS.   John Foss http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Decline of the Dollar Cures for Depression      
(back) Subject: RE: Pedal 64 at SYDNEY TOWN HALL on Organs and Organists online From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:20:22 +1300   >In the light of recent discussion a friend of mine in Autralia has sent = me a recording made some years ago of Michael Dudman demonstrating the Pedal = 64' reed on the Sydney Town Hall   I have three lp's and tapes of Dudman and he's a fine player. The best recording I have of the 64ft Trombone is not Dudman's, though, but a 1960s lp of Reeve (forgotten his Christian name at the moment) that was specifically recorded to make the 64ft sound as real as possible. Along = with this, the stop was used near the beginning of the disc side, to minimise = the curvature of the groove.   The result is amazing, and there is a warning on the record jacket that = most attempts to play the record will result in the needle being thrown off the groove and the speakers being destroyed. Not an exaggeration, as I know to my cost. (Sigh)   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: suggestions for antiphonal ranks? From: "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:35:43 -0000   TC Lewis would have added a 16ft Tibia with an 8ft and 4ft extension = plus tremulant, Ross. (g)   Alan London     I'd suggest a Diapason chorus based on an 8ft Open Diapason of 6.25" = scale at CC, all on 4" wind, voiced and scaled TCLewis would have done in the 1880s.   8 Open Diapason 8 Stopped Diapason (big scale, metal) 4 Principal 2 Fifteenth .. Mixture II (19.22) .. Mixture III (22.26.29)   I'd wouldn't worry about reeds, 16fts or any of that other stuff. It = seems you need a good solid chorus for accompanying singing, with the ability = to devise several smaller choruses. I'd suggest the big scale and high-ish pressure to avoid screech and get the incredibly-rich sound Lewis used = to create wide mouths, low cut-up, some nicking, as much heavy spotted = metal as possible to develop ringing tone with harshness and to cope with the reverberation. =A0 Just my thoughts.   Ross   =20   --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.4 - Release Date: 25/01/2005 =20    
(back) Subject: RE: suggestions for antiphonal ranks? From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:24:27 +1300     >TC Lewis would have added a 16ft Tibia with an 8ft and 4ft extension plus tremulant, Ross. (g)   What? Extensions on a manual division? Not possible on the sort of slider chest Lewis used, and I've never heard of him ever having any manual extensions, anyway. If I'm wrong, please give me examples of where this has happened. I = wouldn't have thought he would have had a Tibia either. Lieblich Gedackt, yes, = often, but a TIBIA?   Please enlighten me.......   Ross