PipeChat Digest #5119 - Wednesday, January 26, 2005
 
Artificial reverberation
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Antiphonal division
  by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
Re: suggestions for antiphonal ranks?
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Question re hybrid organs
  by "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net>
Re: suggestions for antiphonal ranks?
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
authentic worship
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Re: reverberation within pipe organs
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: Question re hybrid organs
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Re: reverberation within pipe organs
  by "Lin Yangchen" <yangchen@raffles.org>
Re: Question re hybrid organs
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Artificial reverberation
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
RE: Question re hybrid organs
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
RE: Antiphonal division
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: reverberation within pipe organs
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: Young kids on the organ
  by "Jerry Richer" <jerry@ChirpingBat.Com>
 

(back) Subject: Artificial reverberation From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:16:39 EST   In my experience (meaning in my experience only, so this is not a sweeping generalization that requires vicious attacks) I have yet to hear = an artifical organ with artificial reverberation circuitry that was not = over-done. Surely, part of faking something is to make its fakery unnoticeable to the = observer, whether it is the forgery of a painting or an antique, or the simulation = of sound. Four seconds of twangy artificial "reverberation" in a room that is =   obviously dead is not only un-subtle, but seems a bit foolish to some = musicians. Our brains contain a storehouse of data that has been input over our lifetimes that helps us mentally establish a correlation between the way a = room looks and the way it sounds. When this relationship is upset, the effect = is unnatural, if not unnerving. Those on this list who have visited, played, or carefully listened to recordings of some great historic organs know that many of them are in = very dry, if not dead, rooms. I found this particularly true in parts of eastern = Germa ny, where flat wooden ceilinged, very small churches contained small but = vibrant instruments that filled the room and were enormously successful and = effective -- without a reverberant context. When one encounters real pipes behaving naturally, and simulated = sounds behaving unnaturally, it does not sound very good. This is when two other factors "kick in": The uninitiated or non-caring listener takes a liking = to the PERCEPTION they prefer (the artificial reverberation), and if the pipes = were thrown in by a local dealer and not tonally finished or properly cared = for, they will sound poor in comparison. I recently heard a combination organ of what is proported to be many hundreds of "ranks," and the pipes were so poorly voiced and finished that = the sterile and obviously artificial digital sections were, in truth, easier = on the ears. This was a stroke of genius on the part of the digital camp. Because Americans demand larger and larger instruments, in deader and deader rooms, for simpler and simpler services, the hybrid market is the = fastest growing share of the product output. Since this is a trend that shows no = signs of changing, the consumer might try to have the pipes scaled, voiced, and finished with the same care as an all-pipe organ, and might request that = there be no tampering with the artificial sounds, so that they can speak as "naturally" as the pipes in the same acoustical setting.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..  
(back) Subject: Antiphonal division From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:17:39 -0800   If the antiphonal stuff is there to support congregational singing, my philosophy is the division should not call attention to itself, but be a subtle reinforcement of the main instrument. If the people closest to the antiphonal only hear that division, the organist is wasting efforts to vary the registrations in the main divisions. Even having a mixture on the antiphonal could be problematic.   In a reverberant building, time lag needs to be considered. Depending on where a person sits, there could be confusion as to which "beat" to follow.   Also, if the antiphonal is pipes, placement is crucial for keeping in tune with main divisions.    
(back) Subject: Re: suggestions for antiphonal ranks? From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:21:31 EST   For the sake of balance and clarity, I would avoid three-rank mixtures, unless very, very carefully designed.  
(back) Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs From: "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:36:10 -0600   The air inside the pipes is what changes as the temperature changes. Cold air is denser air and it works differently in the air reed created by a = flue pipe. Have you ever inhaled helium from a toy balloon and heard your voice =   go up an octave? It works if you play a brass instrument with helium too, = a trombone sounds like a trumpet. This is the same principal which happens when warmer air in a pipe (which is less dense - like the helium) produces = a higher pitch. Therefore, since it is the air in the pipe that makes the difference, not the pipe itself, you don't want to blow cold basement air into the pipes in a warm church, it really screws up the tuning. I don't understand why the colder air doesn't affect the tuning of reed pipes as much as it does the flues though. Maybe in a reed pipe the pitch is determined largely by the length and stiffness of the metal reed itself, = so the air temperature has less effect. That the reeds are left behind by the =   shifting flue tuning is without question on my organ. On cold days when = the chamber temperature never does get up to "room temperature", the Labial = Oboe (a flue pipe) will track right along with the flues and be quite usable, = but the real reeds are all wacky and not tolerable. On such days, if I am to play with the piano when the flue pipes are all flat, I use only the sharp-tuned celeste ranks (NOT with their straight-tuned counterparts), = and it comes out OK. It's good enough for a piano-organ practice session. = Kip in Missouri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:55 AM Subject: RE: Question re hybrid organs     > Is this the right way round Richard? As a mere physicist and not an = organ > technician, I would have thought that flue pipes, particularly metal = ones, > would EXPAND when the temperature RISES, and therefore get LONGER. = Longer > pipes equals lower notes which means the notes should, according to my > physicist's theory, get FLATTER. Is your statement correct, and if so, = why > does my theory fall down? > > Will Light > Coventry UK > > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = F. > Richard Burt > > SNIP! > > When a cold spell comes along, the wind blown flues > will go flat. Most of the reeds will stay about where > they were, if they are made of good stuff and have > been properly voiced in the room. When the heat > waves set in, the wind blown flues go sharp. Again, the > reeds may stay close to their properly tuned pitches. > SNIP! > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: suggestions for antiphonal ranks? From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:38:23 -0500   At 11:21 AM 2005-01-26, you wrote: >For the sake of balance and clarity, I would avoid three-rank mixtures, >unless very, very carefully designed. Sebastian,   I'm not sure I understand this. Many organs have 3 rank Mixtures, that sound no worse than 4 rank Mixtures or even 5 rank Mixtures. I would tend =   to think that any Mixture would have to fit the scheme it is fitted in.   Is the problem you envision with 3 rank Mixtures, the pitch it is based = on, the ceiling pitch, or the breaks.   I must say, of all the pipe organs that I have come across, the Mixture stops are quite often not right. They just don't blend well in the ensemble. Some of them have just been way, way too LOUD.   Arie V.      
(back) Subject: authentic worship From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:42:32 -0600   >I guess my concern is that it seems that people are automatically=20 >assuming the high numbers equate to success in spreading the Gospel. =20 >In other words, keying off of what Steven said, that 50 new people=20 >every week HAS to mean it's all authentic. I'm not so sure we haven't=20 >"compromised one iota on the mission or gospel of the church."   >I mean, we know if you want numbers, it WORKS. In other words, choose=20 >worship themes from the headlines, use music that sounds like top 40,=20 >reduce all religious iconography to an absolute minimum, choose song=20 >texts that are so simple and repetitive that people are free to delve=20 >into their interior emotions, sway and lift their hands, claiming to be   >in God's Very Presence. I am not trying to snootily look down my nose=20 >at any of this. Unfortunately, my concerns are much larger. What I am   >asking is:   I think this topic has a strong relationship to the organ, especially as we consider how so many of us use it in worship weekly. Some of us have secure positions, and may not have to think about authentic worship substance in dialogue with pastors and committees (although, perhaps we should!). But right now, I'm being asked to expand my thinking about the role of the organ in worship music, and the role of music in corporate worship, and I appreciate the thoughts, and the resources shared by our list members both publicly and privately.   I've heard it said that in order to reach a higher level of understanding, you've got to get good and confused first to realize you don't understand it all. I'm committed to being confused for a little while (maybe a lifelong pursuit!) so that I can increase my understanding of these topics, which are linked to the organ, I think.   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri  
(back) Subject: Re: reverberation within pipe organs From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:01:27 -0500     Sebastian makes a point of pipes speaking naturally, and digital sounds speaking with added artificial reverb. I'm sure this would sound odd.   But, I once played a Wilhelm tracker pipe organ. A moderate 2 manual and pedal. It had a Great and a Bruskwerk. It was in a church with decent acoustics. The interesting thing about playing it was, the Great seemed to have a live, resonant reverberant sound, whereas the Brustwerk sounded rather dry. It felt like playing different organs in different rooms. = The only thing I can think of is that the Brustwerk was closer to the ear. It =   was an odd experience to say the least.   Arie V.        
(back) Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:02:07 -0500     On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:55:39 -0000 "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> writes: > Is this the right way round Richard? As a mere physicist and not an > organ > technician, I would have thought that flue pipes, particularly metal > ones, > would EXPAND when the temperature RISES, and therefore get LONGER. > Longer > pipes equals lower notes which means the notes should, according to > my > physicist's theory, get FLATTER. Is your statement correct, and if > so, why > does my theory fall down?       Will:     The amount of expansion that takes place over ambient temperature ranges within a building is nominal.   The change in the specific gravity of the air (a function of temperature and humidity) has a much, much greater effect. This "opposite" phenomenon is a result of changes in the density of the vibrating air column.   Jim  
(back) Subject: Re: reverberation within pipe organs From: "Lin Yangchen" <yangchen@raffles.org> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:18:38 -0800 (PST)   I recently played the Rieger tracker organ in St. Stephan's Cathedral, = Vienna, and had exactly the same experience. The Positiv was situated = right above my face while the Hauptwerk was higher up in the 32-foot = facade. A stark Rueckpositiv effect. In contrast, everything would sound = nicely blended to someone in the nave.   Yangchen   --- Arie Vandenberg <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> wrote:   From: Arie Vandenberg <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:01:27 -0500 To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: reverberation within pipe organs     Sebastian makes a point of pipes speaking naturally, and digital sounds speaking with added artificial reverb. I'm sure this would sound odd.   But, I once played a Wilhelm tracker pipe organ. A moderate 2 manual and pedal. It had a Great and a Bruskwerk. It was in a church with decent acoustics. The interesting thing about playing it was, the Great seemed to have a live, resonant reverberant sound, whereas the Brustwerk sounded rather dry. It felt like playing different organs in different rooms. = The only thing I can think of is that the Brustwerk was closer to the ear. It =   was an odd experience to say the least.   Arie V.         ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:40:14 -0600   Hello, Will:   > Is this the right way round Richard? As a mere physicist > and not an organ technician, I would have thought that > flue pipes, particularly metal ones, would EXPAND when > the temperature RISES, and therefore get LONGER. Longer > pipes equals lower notes which means the notes should, > according to my physicist's theory, get FLATTER. Is your > statement correct, and if so, why does my theory fall down?   Will, I am probably not your best confidant in this answer.   As for my limited physics background, I find that the temperature of the air is more likely to determine the vitality of the vibrating medium.   My early thoughts (my own, not learned in a physics class) is that the colder the air, the more stiff the vibrating medium. In my mind that would make the vibrating medium move faster; not slower. Perhaps I have mis-connected the phenomenon of speaking over long distances in Alaska's bitter cold with how the air moves within the pipe. The result in more recent thinking through this process follows the traditional theory of the organ builders.   Before I released the previous statement that started this discussion, I searched some Internet sites.   The Schlueter Pipe Organ Company posted this discussion regarding their tuning & service:   http://www.pipe-organ.com/tuningseason.htm   TECHNICAL STUFF   Pipe organ sounds are generated by the vibration of a column of air within a pipe. The temperature of this column of air affects the pitch of the note being sounded. As the size, shape, and material used to make each pipe differ, often radically, within the same organ, the individual pipes are affected differently by the same change of temperature. The pipes of the organ do NOT simply all move together to a different pitch level.   As the air becomes cooler, it also becomes heavier and will respond more slowly inside the pipe, and the pitch tends to flatten - go lower. Conversely, when the air becomes warmer, it becomes lighter, responds more quickly inside the pipe, and its pitch tends to sharpen - go higher.   Reed pipes - Trumpet, Oboe, Clarion, Krummhorn, Posaune, Fagotto, etc. - are affected differently, and often more drastically, by changes in temperature and humidity. Mixtures with their many tiny pipes are also quickly and substantially affected by even slight changes in air temperature.   - - - - - I have no financial interest in the Schlueter Pipe Organ Company, but they have posted this information for public reading, and I suppose they rely on their own methods to tune the organs.   I believe the temperature of the air, which often is blown into the windchests and through the pipes independently of the air temperature in the room (for instance,brought in from outside) behaves as described by Schlueter, but I also believe the physical size of the pipe changes, too, due to both the temperature of the room in which it stands and the cooling/heating effect of the wind released through the feet to sound the pipes.   Another resource was contributed via Barnes' "The Contemporary American Organ" when he quoted from E. M. Skinner: " * * * As the temperature rises, the pipe contains less air than before, and some has left it through expansion. The remainder is lighter than formerly, and it is therefore more forcibly excited by the wind sheet, as the latter has not changed. The pipe is, in effect, blown harder. <Skinner had been talking about pitch versus the effects of wind pressure> As the air becomes cooler, the process is reversed and the pitch flattens."   Barnes goes on to say: "It might be assuemed that the pipes of an organ should grow flattere in pitch as the temperature rises because the additional heat would cause the metal in the pipes to expand. Such is not the case. It appears that this factor is practically negligible, but that the heat causes the air in the pipes to expand, and therefore permits the rairfied air to be more forcibly excited by the wind sheet."   I have reasoned my way through the speech of a wind blown pipe, but that was several years ago, and I doubt if I can lay my hands on that paper without a considerable search effort. <grins>   Does this help?   Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt     ..      
(back) Subject: Re: Artificial reverberation From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:16:46 EST   I have to agree with Sebastian if the reverberation is generated from the main speakers of a digital organ. Reverberation requires smaller speakers placed at various points throughout the room. This spreads the response times and significantly fools the ear into believing the room is actually alive acoustically. I learned this trick from Bob Truesdale when he installed his Wurlitzer in a room behind his home. The reverberation actually sounded astoundingly good. He used mutiple source speakers by Bose. I think that is the secret as to whether it will be successful or not. Don du Puy and I tried the same thing with a cheap over the counter reverb. unit and tied into the PA system. It fooled everyone and made me happy. The room itself was drop down dead. It sounded natural and that was our goal. Bob and Don were friends and were involved with the Plummer Auditorium Wurlitzer, Fullerton, CA. I was amazed by their talent. Bob was one of the guys who designed Computer programs for player mechanisms on a lot of David Junction's Wurlitzer projects.   It can work, but you have to go the extra mile or two, and very satisfying to get it right.   Now, having said that, there is nothing like an organ in an alive = acoustic.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: RE: Question re hybrid organs From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:34:11 -0000   Thanks Jim and all - it's nice to learn something new at my advanced age!   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Jim McFarland Sent: 26 January 2005 17:02 To: pipechat@pipechat.org Cc: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs     On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:55:39 -0000 "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> writes: > Is this the right way round Richard? As a mere physicist and not an > organ > technician, I would have thought that flue pipes, particularly metal > ones, > would EXPAND when the temperature RISES, and therefore get LONGER. > Longer > pipes equals lower notes which means the notes should, according to > my > physicist's theory, get FLATTER. Is your statement correct, and if > so, why > does my theory fall down?       Will:     The amount of expansion that takes place over ambient temperature ranges within a building is nominal.   The change in the specific gravity of the air (a function of temperature and humidity) has a much, much greater effect. This "opposite" phenomenon is a result of changes in the density of the vibrating air column.   Jim   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: RE: Antiphonal division From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:44:54 +1300   >Even having a mixture on the antiphonal could be problematic. >In a reverberant building, time lag needs to be considered. Depending on where a person sits, there could be confusion as to which "beat" to follow.   In a large church, it's been my experience that if an antiphonal/westend organ is needed in addition to the one at the front of the building, it = MUST have good upperwork and is then treated as the instrument to lead full = nave singing. Think of St Paul's London, Liverpool, Canterbury, so many others. If the west end organ is to be just a timid thing without a very major contribution to make, I feel it would be mere prettiness and a waste of money.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: reverberation within pipe organs From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:06:34 -0600   When Lorin Whitney had his Robert Morton theatre pipe organ in his recording studio it had artificial reverb installed. It was very effective and had you not known about it, would have never suspected it was there. This was almost fifty years ago and I would hope that the technology is still capable of producing a satisfactory effect.   jch      
(back) Subject: Re: Young kids on the organ From: "Jerry Richer" <jerry@ChirpingBat.Com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:33:14 -0500   I wanted to take organ lessons on the Estey Organ in our school auditorium when I was thirteen. The Organ / Piano teacher told me that I had to learn the piano first. I finally found an organ teacher after = moving across the state when I was 16.   Jerry   Chirp|Chirp|Chirp: It's the Bat, Chirping Bat .Com, www.chirpingbat.com