PipeChat Digest #5121 - Thursday, January 27, 2005
 
RE: Question re hybrid organs
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
RE: Question re hybrid organs
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
Re: Any other new[s] from Westminster?
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
three rank mixtures
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Caleb Simper
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
worship styles
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
RE: three rank mixtures
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
My questions about hybrids
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Any other new[s] from Westminster?
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
"Pshaw" and other archaic terms
  by "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net>
Re: Any other new[s] from Westminster?
  by "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net>
Re: "authentic worship" (warning: somewhat long with some theology - dele
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
RE: three-rank mixtures
  by "Lin Yangchen" <yangchen@raffles.org>
Re: My questions about hybrids
  by "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net>
Chest Organ Photos
  by "John Nisbet" <oberlingerusa@msn.com>
Antiphonal division
  by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
RE: Antiphonal division
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Scandinavian organs -- large and small
  by <SWF12262@aol.com>
Re: Scandinavian organs -- large and small
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
RE: Scandinavian organs -- large and small
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Question re hybrid organs From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:49:12 -0000   Thanks Alan, but here's a question about not a hybrid organ, but two = organs. When we were at St. Luke's on Epiphany night, you showered us with = gifts, including a pile of postcards, including one with an interior shot of = the church which showed a completely different organ from the Walcker (spelling?) which you have now. Apparently it had two chambers on = opposite sides of the chancel and a detached console in the north aisle. What was = it? Why did you scrap it? What happened to it? What happened to the South Chamber, as it doesn't appear to be there any more?   =20   Apposite question re Epiphany services. If one is dressed as one of the three kings, complete with voluminous whiskers with moustache attached, should one take the host over, under, around or through the = beard/moustache combo? ;-)   =20   I can't resist a naughty quote from some ancient Brit comedian about = age: "You're only as old as you feel, and right now I feel like an eighteen = year old. But where am I going to find one at this time of night?"   =20   Hush my mouth!!!!   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Alan Freed Sent: 26 January 2005 18:12 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs   =20   On 1/26/05 6:34 PM, "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> wrote:   > Thanks Jim and all - it's nice to learn something new at my advanced = age! >=20 That's very true. More precisely, in my case, it's nice to have enjoyed TwelfthNight dinner (and the following Eucharist) in Manhattan with = Brits Will and Ros Light; at MY advanced age, I hope THEY felt younger for = just that reason.=20   Alan Freed=20    
(back) Subject: RE: Question re hybrid organs From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:50:44 -0000   Thanks Bob, your answer concurs with several others. I stand corrected and better informed!   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Bob Elms Sent: 26 January 2005 23:37 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Question re hybrid organs   Will, it's not the physicval size of the pipe changing that alters the pitch. It is the density of the air column in the pipe. Warmer air is less =   dense and the beat becomes more rapid and the pitch rises. Cooler air is more dense and so beats more slowly. Bob Elms.      
(back) Subject: Re: Any other new[s] from Westminster? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:53:07 -0800 (PST)   Sorry...Im sitting here with flu and am quite medicated.   Be nice   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: three rank mixtures From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:03:56 -0600   >>What about three-rank mixtures makes them any less-prone to being >>balanced and providing clarity than a two, four, or five-rank mixture?   >Well, some people feel the top pitch of the Mixture should always be a >unison rather than a quint, so to avoid a Mixture going unison-quint-unison >to quint-unison-quint at a break, they want a Mixture to have 2 or 4 or 6=20 >rks. For me, though, that's over to the skill of the voicer and it makes >for interesting character changes as the scale ascends anwyay. Also, to me, >the break between not having the Mixture and then adding it is often too >great and the Mixture is best divided into two, voiced and scaled slightly >differently to enable a variety of lesser choruses than full organ.   I'm glad to hear you say this. I'd always rather see more individual and smaller compound stops in an organ than huge compound stops. Always give me a twelfth, Nasard, tierce, and small 2-rank mixtures before you give me a huge four-rank mixture and a sesquialtera (or worse, a mounted cornet!) Unless the instrument is very large, I'd rather have the option of using as many ranks as possible individually AND using them together to make my own mixtures. This helps to alleviate the problem of going from full to fifteenth, then adding the mixture, and having stark contrast. These comments are not from a voicer/organ builder stand point, but from one of someone wishing for ultimate flexibility in playing many different schools of literature.    
(back) Subject: Caleb Simper From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:04:36 -0600   Happy to report that the first five volumes of Caleb Simper's Organ Voluntaries arrived today, thanks to the efficient service of Stainer and Bell!   Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: worship styles From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:16:18 -0600   Many on this list are fortunate to serve large parishes and congregations that can have full time musicians as well as parishes that value = liturgical worship that is so well served by fine organs.   But let's not forget, at least in the USA, the average congregation has = less than 100 in attendance on Sunday morning--and a substantial percentage actually have less than 50 on a given Sunday morning. Those folk have severe economic limitations even keeping up a physical plant in many = cases, plus having a part time pastor, much less more! Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: RE: three rank mixtures From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:18:13 +1300   >I'm glad to hear you say this. I'd always rather see more individual and smaller compound stops in an organ than huge compound stops.   Further to this. In Auckland here there is an organ which has a 1rk Cymbal on the Great. It breaks a lot, and gives a wonderful silvery sparkly = sheen, without a trace of screech or unpleasantness, to full Great, and works = very well also over Great to 15th without a Mixture in between.   Ross      
(back) Subject: My questions about hybrids From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:03:15 -0600   Ron, I was not talking about a particular organ, just trying to summarize what I thought I was hearing to make sure I hadn't misunderstood. But if the digitals align themselves to the pipes, then the tuning would be different and not necessarily compatible to the piano, right? And this would be true whether or not 'tuning knobs' or sensors are used, right?   This is important to me in the wake of the new wave of hybrids being touted in my area. I'm not a consultant, and I am not asking for a particular church or organ, but would like to know, particularly if I am called on to sub or to assist at a special service. And friends down the street are already looking at hybrids for their future church organ. They were concerned about the expense of keeping pipes in tune. I was wondering if the hybrid might present additional problems, particularly in Protestant churches that like to use organ and piano together.   I'm not expressing myself very well this afternoon, so please excuse - my head feels the size of a prize-winning watermelon.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com            
(back) Subject: Re: Any other new[s] from Westminster? From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:18:01 -0600   Sorry. I was being silly. I'll be nice, and here's hoping you'll soon be = feeling fine.   For a diversion aiming toward topicality, I'm wondering if one could = play a whole recital (with good diversity therein) made up of pieces = that have the word "Westminster" in the title. There's always Carillon = de Westminster by Vierne, and there must be many voluntaries on the tune = "Westminster Abbey." What else?   Bob Lind ----- Original Message -----=20 From: T.Desiree' Hines=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Any other new[s] from Westminster?     Sorry...Im sitting here with flu and am quite medicated.=20   Be nice  
(back) Subject: "Pshaw" and other archaic terms From: "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:20:51 -0800 (PST)   Dear List: The discussion about "Pshaw" isn't on topic, but I just wanted to put my = two cents' worth in on the subject. In the South of my childhood (1950's) = very old people from the country--the kind who still wore sunbonnets and = long sun dresses, or for the men, straw hats and coveralls-- still used = terms like "pshaw". That term was very old-fashioned even then; I suppose = that it has now died out altogether. Most of the people in that region = were of English or Scotch-Irish stock. Country terms that we town people = laughed at, for example "holped" or "holpen" as forms of the verb "to = help", were archaic forms that came directly from Elizabethan English. = The same speech patterns were also found in isolated parts of Appalachia. = I believe that the almost universal use and extensive knowledge of the = Authorized (King James) Version of the Bible kept some of those archaic = forms in general use among the country folk. The people who used such = terms usually had roots in this country that stretched back to before the Revolution. Their families had built this = country from the very beginnings of the Republic, and even before. They = would have bristled, if someone had called them "British". In fact the = speech of those country people had more right to be termed "American" than = much of what we hear on television these days, because it dated back to = the very beginnings of English settlement in the USA. Just because one hasn't heard a term in the urban Northeast doesn't mean = that it isn't in use elsewhere. It's a very big country between the two = coasts. Be careful whom you call a "provincial", or whose speech you deem = un-American, for the very terms you cite may have a long and venerable, = though regional, history. Regional bias is an ugly thing, though alas, it = seems to be of the few kinds of overt prejudice that are socially = acceptable these days, at least in some quarters. Personally, I find = regional differences very colorful and interesting, and the study of them = a fascinating topic. I sincerely hope that such local color does not = disappear altogether through the influence of mass media. To make this at least somewhat on topic: speech was not the only = manifestation of the English roots of rural Southerners. Their musical = tradition also shows strong influences from the folk music of England, = Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. Early American folk melodies are often = pentatonic or modal, a common feature of folksong from the Great Britain = and Ireland. Just look at a tune like "New Britain" (Amazing Grace) , = "Holy Manna" (Brethren, we have met to worship), or "Light" (Sometimes a = light surprises--one of my favorite tunes from early America), and one = will quickly see what I mean. The last tune, "Light", came from Joshua = Leavitt's <Christian Lyre> of 1831-32, an original copy of which I have = here as I write this message. It's a very interesting publication; unlike = most shape-note tune books such as B.F. White's "The Sacred Harp", it is = on two staves. I wonder if it was occasionally accompanied on the organ = or melodeon, when there was such a thing available. Now we're back on topic.... :) Stephen Roberts (A transplanted Southerner who now lives in New England)  
(back) Subject: Re: Any other new[s] from Westminster? From: "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:15:35 -0800   On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:18:01 -0600, Robert Lind <lindr@core.com> wrote:   > Sorry. I was being silly. I'll be nice, and here's hoping you'll soon be = > feeling fine. > > For a diversion aiming toward topicality, I'm wondering if one could > play a whole recital (with good diversity therein) made up of pieces > that have the word "Westminster" in the title. There's always Carillon > de Westminster by Vierne, and there must be many voluntaries on the tune = > "Westminster Abbey." What else? > > Bob Lind   Guy Bovet has also written a Wesminster Carillon (albeit a little less serious than Vierne's example) and I might suggest also Steve Best's Wesminster Trumpet Tune...   Jonathan -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/  
(back) Subject: Re: "authentic worship" (warning: somewhat long with some theology - delete i... From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:50:46 EST   In a message dated 1/26/2005 5:48:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, giwro@adelphia.net writes:   An aside: is s/he doing it with excellence? (within the parameters of = that style of worship)         i could do it better but she is learning and the youth director is way on =   top of the whole thing and helps a lot. previously we had 2 930 services, one contemp in fellowship hall and trad = in sanct. so we combined sort of........... attendance last year up finally over the 1000 per Sunday. interested in seeing what the change does by this time next year. gets us an organ with midi i hope....... <G> dale in florida  
(back) Subject: RE: three-rank mixtures From: "Lin Yangchen" <yangchen@raffles.org> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:03:32 -0800 (PST)   Please pardon my ignorance, but may I know why a 4-rank mixture is more = difficult to tune than two of two ranks each?   Yangchen Lin   --- "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote:   From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:16:56 +1300 To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: RE: three-rank mixtures     >What about three-rank mixtures makes them any less-prone to being balanced and providing clarity than a two, four, or five-rank mixture?   Well, some people feel the top pitch of the Mixture should always be a unison rather than a quint, so to avoid a Mixture going = unison-quint-unison to quint-unison-quint at a break, they want a Mixture to have 2 or 4 or 6 rks. For me, though, that's over to the skill of the voicer and it makes = for interesting character changes as the scale ascends anwyay. Also, to me, = the break between not having the Mixture and then adding it is often too great and the Mixture is best divided into two, voiced and scaled slightly differently to enable a variety of lesser choruses than full organ.   It is, for example, silly at Coventry Cathedral to have the Great go from "Great to Fifteenth" to full flues by adding the only Mixture there, of 4rks. Ditto Wellington and Auckland Cathedrals here in New Zealand. If = they were split into two Mixtures of 2rks each, it would not only greatly = enhance versatility and useability, but also make tuning far easier, as a 4rk Mixture can be hellish to tune compared with two of 2rks each.   Ross     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Re: My questions about hybrids From: "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:51:23 -0600   Hello Glenda,   One might find an advantage in the tunable electronics sort of hybrid, if there were enough electronic sounds to use with the piano and not need to =   use any of the pipes on an especially cold morning. Tune the digitals to = the piano and never turn on any of the real pipes, which would not sound good anyway. Kip in Missouri, who likes pipes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:03 PM Subject: My questions about hybrids     > Ron, I was not talking about a particular organ, just trying to > summarize what I thought I was hearing to make sure I hadn't > misunderstood. But if the digitals align themselves to the pipes, then > the tuning would be different and not necessarily compatible to the > piano, right? And this would be true whether or not 'tuning knobs' or > sensors are used, right? > > This is important to me in the wake of the new wave of hybrids being > touted in my area. I'm not a consultant, and I am not asking for a > particular church or organ, but would like to know, particularly if I am > called on to sub or to assist at a special service. And friends down > the street are already looking at hybrids for their future church organ. > They were concerned about the expense of keeping pipes in tune. I was > wondering if the hybrid might present additional problems, particularly > in Protestant churches that like to use organ and piano together. > > I'm not expressing myself very well this afternoon, so please excuse - > my head feels the size of a prize-winning watermelon. > > Glenda Sutton > gksjd85@direcway.com > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > >      
(back) Subject: Chest Organ Photos From: "John Nisbet" <oberlingerusa@msn.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:03:18 -0500   Dear Listmembers,   A new Chest Organ (5 1/2 / I) is nearing completion at the Oberlinger workshop for St. John Cantius Church, Chicago. There are new photos of the organ being constructed: http://www.oberlinger.com/e-frame_chicago_st_john_cantius.htm   St. John Cantius Church has a remarkable music program under the direction of Fr. C. Frank Phillips, and is a richly appointed church. The church's = Web site is well worth a visit: http://www.cantius.org   Interestingly, Fr. Phillips is the founder of the Society of St. John Cantius, whose motto is Instaurare Sacra (Restoration of the Sacred) http://www.societycantius.org/   Regards,   John Nisbet http://www.oberlinger.com/usa      
(back) Subject: Antiphonal division From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:22:52 -0800   Ross, Perhaps we need to define "antiphonal". If the the main organ can not lead the congregation because it is buried in chambers or is of inadequate design, then an "antiphonal" becomes the real plenum, the congregation's leader. That's a completely different animal.    
(back) Subject: RE: Antiphonal division From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:47:28 +1300   >Ross, Perhaps we need to define "antiphonal". If the the main organ can not lead the congregation because it is buried in chambers or is of inadequate design, then an "antiphonal" becomes the real plenum, the congregation's leader. That's a completely different animal.   Fair enough. Perhaps, just a thought, we need to reserve the term "antiphonal" for a motley collection of stops making a sort-of distant or Choir organ, and use something like "west chorus" or "gallery organ" for a major division? I'm not sure what kind of instrument we were being asked about at the beginning of this topic.   How would you describe the organs at Grace Cathedral, San Francisco? There is a vast Skinner at the front, but I'm told the very very very much = smaller organ at the west end is needed for accompanying nave singing. That was certainly the case the once I've been to a service there: the chancel = organ was a virtual nothing from down the nave unless there were tons of stops used, it's so buried deep in the chancel. It seems the answer there would = be to transfer the chancel organ to the west end and the west gallery organ = to the chancel to accompany the choir only. I could imagine, judging from the sound of an old Richard Purvis lp that I have of the chancel organ, that = it would sound utterly magnificent in the nave from the ideal west gallery there.   How should you then label the instruments in that place? The east and west organs?   Ross        
(back) Subject: RE: Scandinavian organs -- large and small From: <SWF12262@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:16:17 EST   =20 Hej Jarle, =20 Thanks for a good giggle! My arms sure aren't long enough to reach 24 =20 manuals! I had the opportunity to play the organ for a short time at the c= hurch=20 in Mulseryd, Sm=E5land, Sweden last summer, where some of my ancestors =20 worshiped. Quite a thrill, as it was the first time the American branch of=20= the family=20 met the Swedish branch since about 1890. As I recall, the organ was about=20 13 ranks, dating from the 1970s or early 1980s. It reminded me of a larger= =20 version of some of the practice organs we had at Northwestern University, b= ut=20 filled the room rather well, and succeeded in moving my newly met Swedish=20 cousins to tears when I improvised on hymns of their choosing. Most memora= ble,=20 even if it was only 2 manuals, rather than 24! =20 Steve Folkers, descended from Carlson and Sk=F6ld lines in J=F6nsk=F6pingsl=E4n Skokie, IL USA     =20  
(back) Subject: Re: Scandinavian organs -- large and small From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:56:33 +0800       Jarle Fagerheim noted an article stating that,   > On the other end of the scale, we find J=E4mj=F6=20 > Pastorat in Sweden, which is looking for an organist to handle=20 > their "very good instruments, in J=E4mj=F6 church a 1973 Hammerberg=20 > organ of 24 manuals". >=20 > - Jarle   Somebody's got to say it: Organist must supply his or her own bookcase... := -)   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: RE: Scandinavian organs -- large and small From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:46:51 +1300     >Most memorable, even if it was only 2 manuals, rather than 24! [big snips]   Some years ago I was asked to be consultant for a new church getting a = pipe organ. =A0 I refused to cooperate when I saw the organ "chamber" was 6ft high, 12 inches deep and 9ft wide and all was to go in there. I asked why the "chamber" was so small. Their reply? "Well, we've heard the organ up the road in St X's church. As that organ has 21 pipes and only want a = smaller one, we took note and have designed the space for only 15 pipes, smaller ones than theirs." Needless to say, they'd counted the showcase pipes = only. Later, that church installed a 5rk unit organ by taking up considerably = more space. Now, some 35 years later, they want to greatly enlarge the organ = by removing the rear gallery and installing the organ at the back, complete with new 16ft open metal showcase. In-between-times, the congregation = has dropped by about 45%, to about 120 people.=20   Sigh.   Ross