PipeChat Digest #5129 - Monday, January 31, 2005
 
Human Behavior
  by "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net>
Re: three-rank mixtures
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Re: Practice without Shoes
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
Re: Civility
  by "Roy Kersey" <rkersey@tds.net>
Re: three-rank mixtures
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
RE: three-rank mixtures
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Human Behavior
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
RE: three-rank mixtures
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
RE: Human Behavior
  by "Dominic Scullion" <dominicscullion@email.com>
RE: three-rank mixtures & tonal finishing quality
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: three-rank mixtures
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Re: Felix Hell at LTSG in Gettysburg
  by "Randall Smith" <lrlr@knology.net>
Re: Felix Hell at LTSG in Gettysburg
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Off-topic help needed
  by "Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net>
Re: Human Behavior
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: three-rank mixtures
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Quality of Organ Music in America!!!
  by "jonkroepel" <jonkroepel@insightbb.com>
Practice WAS Quality of Organ Music in America!!!
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Looking for Lowered music rack
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Composer and Chorale Info (x post)
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Composer and Chorale Info (x post)
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
 

(back) Subject: Human Behavior From: "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:29:06 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)   The sort of fighting that goes on here is the exact behavior that will serve to kill off the pipe organ...=0D =0D - Nate
(back) Subject: Re: three-rank mixtures From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:41:13 -0500     On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:03:32 -0800 (PST) Lin Yangchen <yangchen@raffles.org> writes: > Please pardon my ignorance, but may I know why a 4-rank mixture is > more difficult to tune than two of two ranks each?     If the mixture has doubled ranks, tuning becomes a bit more difficult. The doubled ranks tend to draw.   Jim  
(back) Subject: Re: Practice without Shoes From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:29:25 -0500   I am another organist who much prefers to play without shoes. I'm not that great a player, and I'm not about to try the Thalben-Ball or Sowerby's Pageant, but I have gotten to a pretty good rendition of Joyce Jones's variations on "Pilot" for pedal solo. I've a high arch, and hitting multiple notes isn't much of a problem. I like being able to feel the pedals! I do think it's what you're used to- I usually wear clogs or Chinese shoes as everyday footwear, and go barefoot whenever feasible. About the only time I have problems is with EM Skinner toestuds- they are more sharply rounded than most, and seem to take more pressure than many. I've never had any trouble with swell pedals, either.   One good thing about playing without shoes is that you never have to worry about not having them with you when you find yourself at a nice instrument far from home!   I was heartened a few years ago when the Diapason interviewed David = Liddle, and I had someone good to point to who shared my preference in organ footwear.   Paul   http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: Re: Civility From: "Roy Kersey" <rkersey@tds.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 9:43:47 -0500   Dear Listers, I have to admit that I, too, am often surprised and discouraged by = how some folks on this list respond, particularly since most participants = are supposedly Christians of some stripe or description. There is a clear = difference between a difference of opinion strongly stated and a personal = attack and we often don't seem to observe tne difference. While I do find human behavior fascinating, as one lister suggested, = and can stand back and marvel at what's going on, I much prefer it when = people can be civil. I subscribe to several internet lists, and there is = one in particular where the participants tend to mind their manners very = well, and I definitely enjoy it more than the goings on here when they = get out of hand. Playing the organ is not easy and requires a lot of frustration = tolerance and patience. I'm sure that we could all exercise such here and = produce a better environment. When I have strong words for somebody, I = usually take it off list and still try to mind my manners. Best Wishes, Roy Kersey Organ Enthusiast and Amateur Trumpeter    
(back) Subject: Re: three-rank mixtures From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:36:42 -0500   But how often to 4-rank mixtures have doubled ranks? As has been mentioned before, the problem is more with uneven numbers of quints and octaves sounding on different breaks. If the mixture begins on 19-22-26, say, it would have 2 quints and 1 octave sounding rank; if it broke to 15-19-22, = it would have 1 quint and 2 octave sounding ranks, and so on back and forth. This effect was quite noticeable in the III rank mixture on the organ I used to play (Wicks/Hook & Hastings) where the middle break of the mixture was noticeably "quintier" than the bass and treble.   Paul   If the mixture breaks by octaves, as a Cymbal might, it wouldn't make much of any difference.     >On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:03:32 -0800 (PST) Lin Yangchen ><yangchen@raffles.org> writes: >> Please pardon my ignorance, but may I know why a 4-rank mixture is >> more difficult to tune than two of two ranks each? > > >If the mixture has doubled ranks, tuning becomes a bit more difficult. >The doubled ranks tend to draw. > >Jim > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>     http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: RE: three-rank mixtures From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:47:18 +1300   >This effect was quite noticeable in the III rank mixture on the organ I used to play (Wicks/Hook & Hastings) where the middle break of the mixture was noticeably "quintier" than the bass and treble.   The voicer has a very great deal to do with whether the result is any good or not. I've heard stunning Mixtures of 3rks where the quints have not = been burdensome at the breaks. And I've heard some clunky shockers as well. Scaling has a lot to do with it, but the voicer is the one who holds the answers to quality of tone. If they say they can't do a particular job, = then the voicer is not good enough.   Let me illustrate. When visiting Nicholsons in England a few months ago, = Guy Russell (the voicer there) showed me his party trick - cutting a spotted metal tube into three bits, having the feet added, then voicing one bit as = a Principal, another as a string, and the third as a flute, all done by the shape and size etc. of the mouth. When I watch a good voicer at work, and listen to the incredible differences he/she can make, I sometimes wonder = why there often seems to be more emphasis placed on size and specification = than on the quality of the tonal work on the pipes themselves. Maybe it's = because so many ears are not able to hear the differences between first-class and mediocre.   Recently I played for a service on a 3m of about 35 stops. There was not only a lack of balance between the manuals, but also within every single rank in the job. With a lack of quality of tone anyway, the whole thing = was horrible. On the other hand, I've played organs where every pipe seems = quite perfectly placed, where every rank is balanced within itself, within the division, within the entire job, and within the building.   If Mixtures sound bad, then to me that is most likely the fault of the voicer, not of the Mixture having too few or too many quint ranks.   Woops, I sound heavy, but forgive me as it's only 7.30am. :-)   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Human Behavior From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:38:07 -0800 (PST)     --- Nathan Smith <erzahler@sbcglobal.net> wrote:   > The sort of fighting that goes on here is the > exact behavior that will > serve to kill off the pipe organ... > > - Nate     I concur, whole heartedly.     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250  
(back) Subject: RE: three-rank mixtures From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:02:11 -0500   On this one, when I say the effect was noticeable, it was to me- I doubt that most people (even organists) listen closely enough to tell. I really didn't think about it until I'd been playing at that church for a few years; it sounded good, just a small change of color between the breaks.   I'd love to see a demonstration set of pipes like that- showing the effect of the voicer's skill. That would be a great piece of advertising, and a help in explaining why tonal finishing is so important for the overall success of the instrument, which can be a difficult idea to get across, given the labor intensive (and hence, expensive) nature of the process.   Paul     >Recently I played for a service on a 3m of about 35 stops. There was not >only a lack of balance between the manuals, but also within every single >rank in the job. With a lack of quality of tone anyway, the whole thing = was >horrible. On the other hand, I've played organs where every pipe seems = quite >perfectly placed, where every rank is balanced within itself, within the >division, within the entire job, and within the building. > >If Mixtures sound bad, then to me that is most likely the fault of the >voicer, not of the Mixture having too few or too many quint ranks. > >Woops, I sound heavy, but forgive me as it's only 7.30am. :-) > >Ross > > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>     http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: RE: Human Behavior From: "Dominic Scullion" <dominicscullion@email.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:01:15 -0000   No it won't. Not playing it, a lack of interest in it and a decline in = their manufacture will kill it off. Not fighting or disagreeing.   DS     _____   From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Smith Sent: 30 January 2005 11:29 To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Human Behavior       The sort of fighting that goes on here is the exact behavior that will serve to kill off the pipe organ...     - Nate             <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=3D54475> Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!    
(back) Subject: RE: three-rank mixtures & tonal finishing quality From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:36:22 +1300   >That would be a great piece of advertising, and a help in explaining why tonal finishing is so important for the overall success of the instrument, which can be a difficult idea to get across, given the labor intensive (and hence, expensive) nature of the process.   Oh yes. I designed the rebuild scheme, supervised the work itself, for a largish 3manual something over 30 years ago. In spite of the firm's principal demanding only a fortnight's tonal finishing when the physical work was completed and everything was playing, the fellow doing the work spent some 10 weeks. No, he's not a voicer by training, but has a good ear and regulates pipes very carefully. The result has been stunning ever = since and I've not found anyone yet who can tell by listening what pipework is from 1929 and what from 1972.   Some List members (especially from the UK and Australia perhaps) may remember the Positive Organ Co.'s little 1-manual jobs of from about 1890 = to 1920. Often of only FF compass, and with short-compass diapasons and/or strings, every pipe was exquisitely voiced, a musical instrument in = itself, with the result that it's always a pleasure to play one of these, however old and unrestored.   As against that, we have a few Hele organs in NZ, installed by Hayman from imports from the UK (the factory was in Plymouth and may still be for all = I know). I've not played a single rank by this firm here that's worth 2c. = The sound is uniformly irregular, breathy, harsh, often noisy, unbalanced, = just plain ugly.   As I've not heard more than a tiny handful of American-built organs in the flesh as it were, only knowing them mostly from recordings, I cannot be = sure of my thoughts on this, but I feel sometimes money would be better spent = on smaller organs, well-voiced, in good sites, than on the huge instruments I often see mentioned here on-List and in organ magazines.   On that recent trip to the UK I made last September, I was confirmed yet again in my belief that a very poor way to assess an organ is to look at the specification. I played some junk with good specifications, and stunningly successful organs that wouldn't get to first-grade for the specification. Too, I played some that are pitifully placed yet mightily effective, and a few that are superbly sited yet the result is worse than mediocre ho-hum.   More and more I'm coming to the view that when a rebuild is planned, a = good voicer should spend some time on the instrument BEFORE plans for the = rebuild are finalised or even made at all. It's no good planning additional = manuals, a new site, extra stops, all that sort of thing, unless we REALLY know = what our present instrument is capable of, in its present site. How often is = this suggestion carried out? I have no idea for any other country, but I've no knowledge of it happening even once in my country here.   Against that, I can think of several rather shocking situations like = Dunedin Cathedral here. It was a 3m Willis dated 1919, with 46 stops. Some years = ago now, it was dismantled completely for a time when the action fell apart = and the chests ceased to be in good condition. The organ was completely = revoiced by a man who had NEVER heard the organ before its dismantling, and all = that revoicing work was done in the fellow's tin-shed voicing-room at the factory. Now, despite the fact that the organ is much larger and has 4 manuals and a paper specification that is far better than it used to be, = the tone quality just isn't there.   I can think of another example where almost the reverse happened. St Andrew's Presbyterian in Auckland has a 2m Croft from about 1910. It's = been added to several times and rebuilt a few times. It's always been a genteel and "nice" organ, but no more than that. In the last rebuild, some years ago, a good voicer was asked to go over the pipework and did, with the result that the organ is now a tonal surprise, being infinitely better = than anyone would expect from its history and paper design.   In the 3m I mentioned above as having supervised, it was an absolute condition that not a single pipe be altered in any way whatever without express approval and that that would not be forthcoming until the organ = was all back in and working. Given the chance again, I'd want to spend a fortnight on the pipework before making the final specification decisions for the rebuild, though in this case the design would still be what it is now.   Thoughts, anyone, on this ramble?   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: three-rank mixtures From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:24:52 -0500     On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:36:42 -0500 Paul Opel <popel@sover.net> writes: > But how often to 4-rank mixtures have doubled ranks?     It is not uncommon to find a doubled rank in the top octave in order to avoid a 5 1/3'.   In addition, many four-rankers begin doubling the non-mixture octave and fifteenth fairly early in the scale. Of course it is easier when there are definite differences in scale and voicing between the chorus and the mixture.   Bear in mind, that my answer was to the question: "Why is a four-rank mixture more difficult to tune than a three?" The context was standard chorus mixtures. I find very high pitched mixtures to be much easier to "get dead-in" because there is less doubling of the chorus pitches.   There was no editorializing intended. Just the statement that the more doubled pitches "in total" the more drawing, the more difficult to tune.   Jim  
(back) Subject: Re: Felix Hell at LTSG in Gettysburg From: "Randall Smith" <lrlr@knology.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:04:04 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)   Have any of you folks ever heard Felix Hell in concert? Man! It's an experience.=0D I have had the opportunity 2 times in near-by La Grange, Georgia on thei= r Wicks instrument.=0D If you get a chance to hear Felix, GO!=0D =0D Randall Smith=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Hell-Concerts@t-online.de=0D Date: 01/29/05 19:37:15=0D To: PIPORG-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU=0D Cc: PIPECHAT@PIPECHAT.ORG=0D Subject: Felix Hell at LTSG in Gettysburg=0D =0D Dear listmembers,=0D =0D the recently published program of Felix Hell's recital, tomorrow, Jan.=0D 30, 4 pm, at the chapel of the=0D Lutheran Seminary of Gettysburg/PA has slightly changed.=0D =0D Below is the final version.=0D =0D Hans-Friedrich Hell=0D =0D =0D Program=0D =0D Nikolaus Bruhns (1685-1750=0D Prelude e minor (small setting)=0D =0D Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750=0D =93Gelobet seist du Jesu Christ=94, BWV 722, BWV 604, BWV 723=0D =0D Dietrich Buxtehude (1637 - 1707)=0D Choralfantasie =84Wie sch=F6n leuchtet der Morgenstern=93, BuxWV 223=0D =0D Louis-Nicolas Clerambeault (1676-1749)=0D Suite du 2eme ton=0D Plein jeu=0D Duo=0D Trio=0D Basse de Cromorne=0D Flutes=0D Recit de Nazard=0D Caprice=0D =0D Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750)=0D Prelude and Fugue G Major, BWV 541=0D =0D INTERMISSION=0D =0D Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750=0D Prelude and Fugue B Minor, BWV 544=0D =84Wachet auf ruft uns die Stimme=94, BWV 645=0D =0D Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy (1809 - 1847)=0D Sonata No. 5, D Major, op. 65=0D - Andante=0D - Andante con moto=0D - Allegro maestoso=0D =0D Johannes Brahms (1809 - 1847)=0D =93Es ist ein Ros entsprungen=94=0D =0D Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750=0D Toccata and Fugue F Major, BWV 540=0D =0D Sigfrit Karg-Elert (1809 =96 1847)=0D Chorale Fantasy on =84Now thank we all our God=93=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D ******************************************************************=0D "Pipe Up and Be Heard!"=0D PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics=0D HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org=0D List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org=0D Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org=0D List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org>=0D List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org>=0D List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>=0D =0D =0D =20
(back) Subject: Re: Felix Hell at LTSG in Gettysburg From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:16:01 +0000   On 1/30/05 11:04 PM, "Randall Smith" <lrlr@knology.net> wrote:   > It's an experience. > I have had the opportunity 2 times in near-by La Grange, Georgia on thei= r > Wicks instrument. > If you get a chance to hear Felix, GO! >=20 >=20 >=20 > Agreed. I=B9ve had the pleasure four or five times, in NYC. It is a pretty= fine > experience. I certainly agree with you. =B3Amazing=B2 is by no means too st= rong. >=20 > Alan Freed >=20    
(back) Subject: Off-topic help needed From: "Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:20:10 -0600   Greetings:   Although I have only been acquainted with pipe organs, for the past 40+ years, I have just purchased a tonewheel mint condition Hammond C3!   Can anyone suggest sources for information regarding maintenance, moving, etc. for this instrument?   Best wishes....(and back to pipe topics).   Tom Gregory    
(back) Subject: Re: Human Behavior From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:03:42 EST   Part of human behavior is ALSO the act of inferring what we WISH to believe from a medium that provides absolutely no inflection or tone. Many = an outrageous fight (and shocking private E-mail) has been the result of misinterpretation, seeing evil and spite where there was none. List members DO attack, some rather openly. Others simply try = desperately to correct misinformation that is stated with great authority or counter advice that might lead to the destruction of an instrument. Sometimes, a knowledgeable person will make a comment that is violently shot down by = another member, and the objection is sustained, leaving the list impoverished and misled, because the original poster simply does not want to expend the energy in a =   fruitless battle for accuracy. On the other hand, list members are frequently accused, both privately =   and publicly, of attacks that simply did not occur -- and then it is the self-involved "offendee" who takes the behind-the-scenes warpath, = spreading ill will over an incident that, in truth, never occurred. As Samuel Clemens said, "I've lived through many terrible things in my =   life, some of which have actually happened."   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: three-rank mixtures From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:09:17 EST   My comment, which initiated this thread, has nothing to do with whether or =   not the voicer is capable, or the finisher is fastidious, whether there = are doubled ranks, nor with splitting a four-rank mixture into two two-rank = mixtures.  
(back) Subject: Quality of Organ Music in America!!! From: "jonkroepel" <jonkroepel@insightbb.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:09:13 -0600   What is going to kill this profession is not necessarily people who = disagree on issues. While I am a Christian, I can and will not assume = that others are. I can respect people others of other faiths as well as = my own.   Lack of true discipline, and I mean individual who just mess around when = when they practice, i.e. people playing on full organ and practicing at = careless tempos before the notes are mastered, is what is killing this = profession. If we are professionals, we need to have standards that = similar to other professional musicians. I encourage even amateur = musicians to play, but I would expect that even amateurs would have some = standards as well. I have heard some very wonderful amatueur musicians!   I am not saying that we should not act with civility toward our fellow = colleagues, but we should promote the highest standards(not mediocre = standards) of performance, education, teaching, and research in music in = America and abroad. =20   Our profession is dying, just like other professions in the arts because = WE ARE LAZY! So, I plead with every one to spend time and to be honest = with oneself about the quality of the music. The music doesn't belong = to us, but to the composers. We need to do our best to at least = accomplish the bare minimum and that is to learn the right notes, = rhythms, etc, and then apply our special touch.   End of rant. Let the flaming ensue!   Jon Kroepel  
(back) Subject: Practice WAS Quality of Organ Music in America!!! From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:21:02 -0800 (PST)     Speaking of practice... How many people have access to small, useful practice organs? (Particularly in the university environment)       From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
(back) Subject: Re: Looking for Lowered music rack From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:53:32 -0600   Joe Elliffe wrote:   > I want to replace a broken Plexiglas music rack that hooks over your > regular > rack and lowers your music to a comfortable position- I can't find the > dealer that I bought it from-   I would contact a vendor of plastic resins, provide exact dimensions, including locations of any mounting holes, and get a new rack from them. However, I would advise using a polycarbonate resin (one trade name: Lexan), rather than plexiglass, as it is more durable, and is less likely to break.   ns  
(back) Subject: Re: Composer and Chorale Info (x post) From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:03:22 -0600   Jan Nijhuis wrote:   >Voor vader en moeder, "For Father and Mother", I would think is a = dedication. >Not much bigraphical information seems to be available on him. >   When I did a "Google (R) search on the Dutch phrase,. "Voor Vader en moeder", one of the hits I found was on a Dutch bible site, where this phrase appears in Sirach 41, probably verses 17ff (though verse numberings sometimes vary):   ns  
(back) Subject: Re: Composer and Chorale Info (x post) From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:32:23 +0800   Thanks Noel,   Sirach is one of the Apocryphal books, Ecclesiasticus. 41:17 and following = reads:   17: Be ashamed of immorality, before your father or mother; and of a lie, b= efore a prince or a ruler; 18: of a transgression, before a judge or magistrate; and of iniquity, befo= re a congregation or the people; of unjust dealing, before your partner or = friend; 19: and of theft, in the place where you live. Be ashamed before the truth = of God and his covenant. Be ashamed of selfish behavior at meals, of surlin= ess in receiving and giving, 20: and of silence, before those who greet you; of looking at a woman who i= s a harlot, 21: and of rejecting the appeal of a kinsman; of taking away some one's por= tion or gift, and of gazing at another man's wife; 22: of meddling with his maidservant -- and do not approach her bed; of abu= sive words, before friends -- and do not upbraid after making a gift; 23: of repeating and telling what you hear, and of revealing secrets. Then = you will show proper shame, and will find favor with every man.   Being a Calvinitic Protestant, I wouldn't have searched the Apocrypha.=20     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: Composer and Chorale Info (x post) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:03:22 -0600   >=20 > Jan Nijhuis wrote: >=20 > > Voor vader en moeder, "For Father and Mother", I would think is a dedic= ation. > > Not much bigraphical information seems to be available on him. > > >=20 > When I did a "Google (R) search on the Dutch phrase,. "Voor Vader=20 > en moeder", one of the hits I found was on a Dutch bible site,=20 > where this phrase appears in Sirach 41, probably verses 17ff=20 > (though verse numberings sometimes vary): >=20 > ns   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm