PipeChat Digest #5434 - Friday, July 1, 2005
 
Re: Paul Jacobs newspaper article
  by "Mark Koontz" <markkoontz@yahoo.com>
Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express con
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
What is *GOOD* music?
  by "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net>
Sirius Radio
  by "Dersch Bruce" <bedersch2001@yahoo.com>
Re: How would you rank "service" music...
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express con
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Christmas and Easter Postludes
  by "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net>
Calvar and St Goerges Organs in NYC
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Pardon ME!--thats CalvaRY and St  GEOrges!
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Sampling
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
AGO RCYO Region I results (cross posted)
  by "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net>
St. George's Moller NYC
  by "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net>
Re: Pardon ME!--thats CalvaRY and St  GEOrges!
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express con
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
RE: AGO RCYO Region I results (cross posted)
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Why New Organ at Bryn Mawr Presb.?
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@millersville.edu>
Re: Why New Organ at Bryn Mawr Presb.?
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express con
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Paul Jacobs newspaper article From: "Mark Koontz" <markkoontz@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:05:02 -0700 (PDT)   >According to Jacobs, organists shoulder some responsibility for the >current situation.   >"I think that, certainly in the '60s and '70s, organists placed what >they thought to be historically accurate above convincing >performance," he says. "And we know that audiences are concerned >really with what is convincing. Unfortunately, much of the playing >and teaching didn't take this into account and turned audiences away >from organ music, which is a real shame."   There has been a decline in interest in classical music generally. It is possible that Mr. Jacobs' comments could be more generally applied.   Unfortunately, as it stands (quite possibly without proper context, within = the confines of a newspaper article), this remark makes it sound as though "historically accurate" and "convincing" are mutually exclusive = alternatives.   A performance needs to communicate. A showy performance communicates a = kind of evaporative excitement, something makes you say "Wow!" at the end. An = artistic performance communicates something of substance, something that makes you = say "Ah!" at the end.   If a performance doesn't communicate, then it is dead. It doesn't matter = if it is historically accurate or not. If you endure to the end, it only makes = you wonder where you parked the car.   >Furthermore, he says, "Organists become far too preoccupied with the >instrument. You never hear a pianist saying, generally speaking, `I'm >playing on a Steinway D,'" he says. "And I think that organists >generally should listen to the music first and foremost and the >instrument second. After all, the instrument is a machine, and it's >the human being that brings life to the music."   I recall a story a friend told me years ago. She was a serious music = major, and was ushering at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion in Los Angeles for a = Horowitz concert. Before the concert, the ushers watched as Horowitz tried the different pianos available at the venue. Ultimately, he asked the = listening ushers what they thought, and there was overwhelming enthusiasm for one particular piano.   Perhaps this was not a preoccupation, but it was certainly a = consideration.   Imagine rather that the pianist was offered a harpsichord at one venue, a clavier at another, then a pianoforte, then a Steinway. In such = circumstances the performer focuses some additional attention on how the instrument = affects a given piece of repertoire, and the range of what can be communicated = musically.   If Mr. Jacobs is referring to a preoccupation with the count of ranks, = then I certainly agree. I think I'm beginning to understand more and more how = this preoccupation has contributed to the current situation.   I would hesitate to apply the idea more broadly, however, since the = instrument is an element of the performance, and organs (especially "good" ones) are somewhat unique as musical instruments in their individual = distinctiveness.   Overall, I think Mr. Jacobs is right to give organists collective responsibility for the current situation. We cannot change the direction = of our culture without changing ourselves.   Mark Koontz    
(back) Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express consent From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:15:17 -0400   John, Again you have a problem with ownership. Once you sell a product to = an organization or a user, you cannot tell him what to do with it. Now you cannot build another product exactly like it and say it was made by the = same builder, nor can you steal a unique design used by the builder and claim = it as your own. No one can copy the Austin chest and say that it is their design without a patent lawsuit. Nor can the builder tell a purchaser who now owns the product that, in anger, not getting what he wanted, cannot = burn the product. It's his property. If he does it to put in an insurance claim =   then that is fraud and he will wind up in court but the manufacturer has = no claim to ownership once it leaves his factory.Nor does he have any claim = on the results of the operation of his property. All he is responsible for is =   having the product perform as he said it would. If the purchaser wants to sell CD's of the product's sound with their organist playing it, the manufacturer has no claim on the profits from that CD. If the purchaser is =   paid by an electronic organ company to tape, sample, listen, record the sound of that product, the manufacturer has no claim on the fee paid to = the organization . It might sound complicated but it is relatively simple. = Been there, done that. Been just as frustrated with the law. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 3:39 PM Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express consent     >I have heard of pipe organ builders including a clause in the contract = for > the organ that the instrument is not to be sampled without their > permission. > This has nothing to do with intellectual property, but is rather a > restrictive covenant placed by the maker on the use of the instrument. > Although I am not a lawyer, I think this would probably be easier to > uphold > in court than treating the sound as a copyright issue. > > John Speller > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's > express consent > > >> Hello, >> >> An interesting legal conundrum, since one would have >> to consider the individual sampled sounds as part of >> the whole for the purposes of any sampling to be >> "substantially the same." >> > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: What is *GOOD* music? From: "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:24:34 -0700   Can we think about the kind of *GOOD* music most of us on the list prefer? (You know who I mean...)   I remain troubled when I hear people speak of *traditional,* *Anglican,* *Bach, Vierne & Howells,* etc, as being the only *TRUE* music. Much as I = am saddened when the word "contemporary" seems to frighten some of us.   We are beginning to learn that there are excellent pipe organs in many styles, and "electric-action" isn't any longer a bad term - nor should "tracker-action" be either!   Quality speaks for itself, and quite often, *more* is simply, more... Simplicity in music - in style, craft, color, is often extremely elegant. I'm not talking about emotional slush here, but a simple text that is well-written, paired with a beautiful and simple melody can speak volumes.   We've recently spoken of every-day church music that can be quickly = learned.   May I cite as an example for discussion, the setting of "Come down O love divine," to the tune "Down Ampney" by Charles Callahan in his "Music for Manuals for Pentecost." Callahan states that pedals can be used and the bass line is very easy. You can perform this piece after reading it once = or twice, if not sight-reading. This work takes the wonderful tune, and works its way through several atmospheric passages that are harmonically fresh, and it takes you on a journey. It doesn't contain many *extra* notes, but it is elegant, and it is a composition of quality. The selection is published by Morning Star.   There is a setting of Adoro te Devote by K. Lee Scott for 2-part mixed = choir that is also easy, but quite beautiful. I'm sure people can quote others. =     I love Howells, Vierne, and Bach, but quality comes in many guises.   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Randy Terry Music Minister The Episcopal Church of St. Peter Redwood City, California        
(back) Subject: Sirius Radio From: "Dersch Bruce" <bedersch2001@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT)   There is hope!!   Paris, Arkansas, 4:00 CDT   I was listening to Sirius Symphony Hall Channel 80 on my Dishnetwork TV system, and they just played Liszt's Prelude and Fugue on BACH. A couple of weeks ago they played a large Bach prelude and fugue, but I have forgotten which one. At last a classical station that is not afraid to play organ music.   all best regards,   Bruce Dersch  
(back) Subject: Re: How would you rank "service" music... From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:33:33 -0700 (PDT)   At my church, they get a blend. One Sunday I may do a piece of standard = repertoire that I have learned as prelude, and not be ashamed to rip out a = good old Hymn tune arrangement my Robert Hobby, Miss Bish or Don Hustad as = postlude. I think one is able to play an organ to its gfull advantge = doing any pieces of musical taste. "The Parish Organist" is something tha = tI have never really used or even thought to purchase. I for one prefer to work for a place that would like to hear a Bach piece = one sunday and not mind having a "service" composition the next. WHile there are publishers that crank out just anything, there are those = that have good quality pieces and collections. I think my least favorite = is...well...I wil keep that off the list. My only challenge will be this...getting a church used to hearing the = Widor Toccata at CHRISTMAS as the postlude on Christmas Eve, and another = piece as Postlude on Easter Sunday.   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
(back) Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express consent From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 18:32:08 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 3:15 PM Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express consent     > John, > Again you have a problem with ownership. Once you sell a product to an > organization or a user, you cannot tell him what to do with it.   Yes you can. As a condition of the sale you make the customer sign a contract saying that the instrument may not be sampled without the = builder's express consent, and then a customer who breaks this contract can be sued for breach of contract. If the customer doesn't sign the contract of sale the sale doesn't go through and they don't get the organ. Every time you install a piece of software in your computer the manufacturers make you agree to their conditions of sale before you are allowed to install it. = If you don't click on "agree" you don't get to install the software. If you break the conditions you can be sued. Auto manufacturers usually make you agree to their conditions, limited warranty, etc. You don't get a credit card without agreeing to the conditions that the credit card company imposes. You can be the owner of a photograph but not allowed to publish = it because someone else owns the copyright. These are the sorts of = conditions that are imposed in most commercial transactions.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Christmas and Easter Postludes From: "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:14:28 -0700   I do the Mulet Carillon-Sortie (or Bach Fantasia on In dulci jubilo) on Christmas.   I do the Widor Toccata (Symphony V) on Easter (and whenever requested to = do so by a member or guest.)   I don't think the Widor sounds the least bit *Christmas,* but to each his own!   Cheers! Randy   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Randy Terry Music Minister The Episcopal Church of St. Peter Redwood City, California        
(back) Subject: Calvar and St Goerges Organs in NYC From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT)   How are these two organs at the merged Church of Calvary/St Georges? I assume that the A-S at Calvary Episcopal is in the same Calvary that is = associated with the jointed church. Do reply TDH     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Pardon ME!--thats CalvaRY and St GEOrges! From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:52:32 -0700 (PDT)   still discuss! i have heard the Biggs recording at St Georges and it sounds rather thin, = and lacking that which underdirds. Im not sure if that is a good recording to base judgement on the tonal = output of that organ, though.   --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
(back) Subject: Re: Sampling From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:54:42 EDT   >The builder of an organ can specify anything he wants.   The builder may specify it, but how is he going to know if the organ has = been sampled or not? The logic of that statement can be carried to such inane extremes as to what types of registrations must be used and what types of = music may be played on the organ. Once the organ has been accepted by the congregation, it becomes the congregation's instrument, not the builders. = They have paid the builder for it, so the builder releases the rights to it. If my church's attorneys saw that line in the contract, they would argue the = point until it was taken out. We paid for it, it is ours, we can do with it what we = want. If we chose to pimp it out and sell the sampling rights to the highest = bidder, so be it. It's our right to do so, since we own the organ, no builder is going to tell us what we can or can not do once we have taken posession = and paid for it. The only way a company like Rodgers or Allen or (insert name = here) would be able to sample any of our new organ will be to make a donation to = the church--it's not going to be a freebie.   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: AGO RCYO Region I results (cross posted) From: "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 18:03:43 -0700 (PDT)   Last Saturday, June 25 the finals of the Region I AGO Regional Competition = for Young Organists was held at Center Church in Hartford. The organ is = (what else in Hartford, CT?) a 63 rank, three manual Austin. The organ is = housed in a beautiful Greek Revival style case by the early American = builder Appleton. The present organ was originally built as Austin Opus = 189 of 1907; it was rebuilt by Austin in 1954 and 1969, and the console = was recently renovated by Foley-Baker, Inc., of Tolland, CT. There were four finalists in the competition, all of whom had won local = chapter competitions: 1. Christopher Houlihan,18; a graduating high school senior who studies = with John Rose; 2. List member Christopher Howerter, 19, who is entering his sophomore = year at Western Connecticut State University, where he studies with = Stephen Roberts; 3. Michael Ruminski, 19, who is entering his sophomore year at the Hartt = School of Music in Hartford, where he studies with Patricia Snyder; 4. Jeffrey Wood, 21, who is entering his senior year at Holy Cross College = in Worcester, MA; Jeff is a student of James David Christie. According to the rules, the judges cannot see the competitors. Since the = organ is located in the rear gallery, the judges were seated facing the = front of the church. The judges were Paul Jacobs of the Juilliard School, = Martin Jean of Yale University, and Ezequiel Menendez, Director of Music = at St. Joseph's Cathedral in Hartford. The alternate juror was John = Anthony; Larry Allen was the second alternate. The required pieces were "Wir glauben all", BWV 680, and "Schmuecke dich", = BWV 654 of J.S. Bach, and the "Choral Varie" from the "Prelude, Adagio et = Choral Varie sur le theme du 'Veni Creator' " of Maurice Durufle (please = pardon the missing diacriticals). All competitors were required to play a = hymn chosen from a list of several possibilities, and an additional piece = of their choice. As it turned out, the students played in practically the same alphabetical = order listed above, except that the middle two played in reverse order. = Chris Houlihan played first. Chris chose as his "choice" piece the very = entertaining "Toccata" of Leo Sowerby. I hadn't heard this piece in many = years, and Chris Houlihan's fine performance convinced me that I should = consider learning it. It's really a fun piece of music with lots of = audience appeal, I think. Chris played the hymn "Abbot's Leigh" as his = hymn of choice. Michael Ruminski played "Litanies" of Jehan Alain as his optional piece. = "Abbot's Leigh" was also his hymn of choice. My student, Chris Howerter, had chosen the Introduction and Passacaglia in = d minor (without Opus) of Max Reger as his optional piece. The judges = later told me that they were very impressed with Chris' performance of = this work, and that made me very proud. Chris played "Wondrous Love" as = his hymn of choice. Jeff Wood played last. Jeff played a dazzling performance of the "Joie et = Clarte" from "Le Corps Glorieux" of Olivier Messiaen, a very demanding = work. Jeff also did a very spirited and extroverted accompaniment to the = hymn, "Ein Feste Burg". It was pure Hollywood, and great fun! After the competition we all were invited to the home of Michael Foley for = a picnic and a very entertaining theater organ program by Jelani = Eddington. The Foleys have a Wurlizter theater organ installed in their = beautiful turn of the 20th. century home, which overlooks a lake. Jelani = Eddington needs no introduction to the theater organ enthusiasts on the = lists, and he did not disappoint us: he played a fine program which = included a big fantasy on themes from Bizet's opera "Carmen" and also a = medley of tunes by CT composer, Leroy Anderson. His command of that = Wurlitzer was nothing short of astounding! Then it came time for the winners to be announced. The first place winner = was Jeffrey Wood, and second place went to my student, Christopher = Howerter. Both young men played splendidly, as everyone agreed. Jeff Wood = will represent Region I at the AGO National Convention in Chicago next = year. Congratulations to both Jeffrey Wood and Chris Howerter! Stephen Roberts Western CT State University, Danbury, CT USA  
(back) Subject: St. George's Moller NYC From: "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 18:05:20 -0700   I heard the recording too, and being a bit older than you, I can remember thinking it was pretty cool. Of course, I have not been there in person, but it is a strange coincidence, isn't it, that both Calvary and St. George's both have Gallery divisions that have the big 32 and 16 reed = stops for the entire organ. I've always wondered what that sounds like in the room.   I have Calvin Hampton playing the Calvary organ on CD, and that is a very interesting instrument, it does all work, but (I think it has a lot of Roosevelt pipework in it) it sounds quite different from the usual EMS or GDH organ.   Cheers! Randy Terry     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org On Behalf Of Desiree' Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 5:53 PM     still discuss! i have heard the Biggs recording at St Georges and it sounds rather thin, and lacking that which underdirds.        
(back) Subject: Re: Pardon ME!--thats CalvaRY and St GEOrges! From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:37:28 -0500   I think a lot of organs may lack underdirds, but, frankly, I haven't examined them down there to find out for sure.   Bob Lind   ----- Original Message ----- From: Desiree' <nicemusica@yahoo.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Pardon ME!--thats CalvaRY and St GEOrges!     > i have heard the Biggs recording at St Georges and it sounds rather = thin, and lacking that which underdirds.      
(back) Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express consent From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:56:17 -0400   Dear John, "These are the soprt of conditions taht are imposed in most = commercial transactions". Agree to disagree. I spent close to 30 years as a sales engineer and I have yet to see that stick when you phsically move a = product from the ownership of the manufacturer to the end user. Let it rest. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 7:32 PM Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express consent     > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 3:15 PM > Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's > express consent > > >> John, >> Again you have a problem with ownership. Once you sell a product = to > an >> organization or a user, you cannot tell him what to do with it. > > Yes you can. As a condition of the sale you make the customer sign a > contract saying that the instrument may not be sampled without the > builder's > express consent, and then a customer who breaks this contract can be = sued > for breach of contract. If the customer doesn't sign the contract of = sale > the sale doesn't go through and they don't get the organ. Every time = you > install a piece of software in your computer the manufacturers make you > agree to their conditions of sale before you are allowed to install it. > If > you don't click on "agree" you don't get to install the software. If = you > break the conditions you can be sued. Auto manufacturers usually make = you > agree to their conditions, limited warranty, etc. You don't get a = credit > card without agreeing to the conditions that the credit card company > imposes. You can be the owner of a photograph but not allowed to = publish > it > because someone else owns the copyright. These are the sorts of > conditions > that are imposed in most commercial transactions. > > John Speller > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: RE: AGO RCYO Region I results (cross posted) From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:01:17 -0500   Stephen, congratulations to you and Christopher.   You said that the judges were not supposed to see the organists - I find that a cool rule. That way the judges had to trust only to their ears. Were the judges privy to the competitors' teachers or schools, or were they left ignorant of any information about the students?   You also said there were four finalists. Do you know how many started out in the competition at the regional level?   And if I am not mistaken, didn't Christopher win some type of competition last year, or perhaps two years ago? He sounds well on the way to an impressive career.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com          
(back) Subject: Why New Organ at Bryn Mawr Presb.? From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@millersville.edu> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:12:21 -0400   The new issue of _the Diapason_ that arrived today carries a cover picture and related article about a new tracker at Bryn Mawr Presbyterian that replaces the Rieger of about 30 years ago. What was wrong with the = Rieger?   This kind of action makes more difficult the defense of a new tracker = on the claim that it will last a long time. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA    
(back) Subject: Re: Why New Organ at Bryn Mawr Presb.? From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:54:51 EDT   as my old time roots would say:   "... doesn't appear to be good stewardship of the resources God has so graciously supplied."   Neil by the BAy  
(back) Subject: Re: the instrument is not to be sampled without the builder's express consent From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:11:02 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Absolutely right Paul, and of course, I would add that the same argument applies to any digital re-mastering of a digital master. So instead of sampling pipe-tones, or even other musical instruments, one simply samples a "recording" using the same technology. If the intent was to record, and this recording fell into pirate hands, who would be culpable?   It just goes to show that pipe-organ builders are under pressure, and that can only be a good thing in a free-market society.   It also demonstrates desperation, when organ-builders have to close ranks (so to speak) and talk about points of law, which frankly, they couldn't afford to prosecute for fear of losing a case.   It's a far-cry from the days of Cavaille-Coll, when help and advice was freely given from one to the other.   Perhaps organ-builders to-day live in a meaner, more mercenary world....or maybe I've got it wrong, and they just have an over-inflated view of their own intellectual property.   I don't notice Yamaha or Steinway complaining about digital pianos, or discussing lawsuits and "theft" of intellectual property. They probably have better things to do, such as making better instruments than their competitors, and selling a few on the way.   If any organ-builder tried to impose any clauses at all, I'd soon be telling him what to do with his product!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- Paul Valtos <chercapa@enter.net> wrote:   > John, > Again you have a problem with ownership. Once > you sell a product to an > organization or a user, you cannot tell him what to > do with it.   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com