PipeChat Digest #5444 - Tuesday, July 5, 2005
 
RE: German reed maker in 19th. century Paris
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: German reed maker in 19th. century Paris
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Standing ovations
  by <Justinhartz@aol.com>
Re: Standing Ovations and LEVITY at Recitals
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame
  by "Sand Lawn" <glawn@jam.rr.com>
ooops....a couple of typos in my post--corrected sentences
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
RE: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Sampling question
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: German reed maker in 19th. century Paris
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
The Bronte Sisters (offtopic)
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Sampling question - and then again
  by "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
voicing
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@comcast.net>
Re: The Bronte Sisters (offtopic)
  by "Rev. Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: German reed maker in 19th. century Paris From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:11:30 +1200   >For example, the Vox Humana in the Hooks' famous organ in Holy Cross Cathedral in Boston is made in Dom Bedos style, and it is stamped "Zimmermann Paris", as are some reeds in Cavaille-Coll organs in France. Just as firms like Giesecke make reeds in different styles for builders = all over the world today, Zimmermann apparently did the same in the 19th. century. Zimmermann's reeds are beautifully made, and were highly = regarded then. We should remember that through trade fairs like the Crystal Palace Exhibition and the Paris World's Fair of 1900, builders who exhibited = became familiar with the work of other builders from other countries. Things = were not quite so parochial then as we might imagine.   > The builders then exchanged information and talked shop among = themselves, just as builders do today. I'm sure all this is very true.   It's also true in the early part of the 19thC. Our George Croft, who built organs between about 1898 and 1958 when his son Bill took over the firm, used to specify French Vox Humanas way back pre-WWII as he said they = stayed better in tune than English ones. Croft made his own wooden pipework and also some metal ones, but imported metal ones generally from England, although he also used Laukhuff pipes on several occasions between WWI and WWII.   Don Osborne went into partnership with E.H.Lawton of Scotland in the early 1920s and many organs were produced from the Lawton & Osborne through till the late 1950s when Don retired. How much was Don's work, and how much Osborne's, is not always easy to decide now. So there's a direct Scottish link.   Too, it's well-known here that Telford of Ireland sent at least two organs to NZ, and also workers to the Fincham firm in Australia. One of them, Arthur Hobday, came to NZ and set up on his own after a while of = partnership with Telford. Later, Adrian A.Hobday took over from his father, so there's another "foreign" link, but this one goes even further in one organ: Back pre-WWI, Hobday installed a large and fine 2m organ in the great Sacred Heart Church in Timaru here, but it wasn't generally known till fairly recently that many of the flues were in fact made in 1848 by the English firm of Gray & Davison, thus were 2nd-hand here.   So, yes, I believe there has always been cross-fertilisation, going back centuries. Even in NZ we've had a b it of this, but not as much as I might have hoped. It's all to the good, I believe.   Ross        
(back) Subject: RE: German reed maker in 19th. century Paris From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:12:43 +1200     >The builders then exchanged information and talked shop among themselves, just as builders do today. I meant to add that since WWII NZ organbuilders have many ranks of pipes from Stinkens and Laukhuff, in addition to British stuff.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Standing ovations From: <Justinhartz@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:08:50 EDT   I was not at the recital, nor have I heard the artist, so my comments are = of a general nature. I've attended quite a few organ recitals where I felt a standing ovation = was certainly not in order. My theory is this - The audience, lulled into a stupor by the nonstop torrent of sound coming =   from the organ chamber, leapt to their feet upon being awakened by the = 32' reed, indicating that the organ recital (thank goodness) was over! Cheers. Justin Hartz  
(back) Subject: Re: Standing Ovations and LEVITY at Recitals From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:00:31 EDT   I am confused as to why Desiree'' feels that a recital must end with a standing ovation. I have played numerous recitals and have had standing = ovations, I have played recitals and not had them, there have been recitals in = churches where there has been no applause until the end of the recital, and I even played dedication recitals in the context of services were there was no = applause "because it was a service" and then there was a hymn and Benediction. In = those cases when there was no standing ovation did it bother me at all? Not one =   bit. I don't do it for the ovation. I did a dedication program a month = or so ago in a small country church during their evening service, it was the = first time they had ever had anything like that before--they didn't clap between = pieces because it was in a service and the program ended with a Benediction. However, at the reception afterward, people told me that they wanted to = stand and cheer. LOL I got a kick out of hearing that, but that wasn't the driving = force of what I was doing. I was there to provide them with a dedication = program, to provide inspirational music, to explain their new instrument and give insight into the music I was playing. Afterward, it was obvious that the = music moved them and I was glad it did.   I don't plan my recitals to get the audience to give me an ovation. Those =   are should be purely spur of the moment events based on the performer's = recital and his rapport with the audience. It's a magical thing. I hate it when = it's a planned event by a few "plants" in the audience. When those people jump = to their feet and force the audience to join them, I stay put in my seat. If =   I'm not moved to be on my feet, I won't get up. Just because an organist = used a 32' reed in a Bach fugue doesn't mean that they should demand an ovation.   Depending on the venue, some recitals are not the place for LEVITY, I'm = not sure if recitals are ever the place for lefity or ilevity. If the recital = is an academic degree recital or an AGO recital, it may not be the place for cutesy pieces designed to make the audience giggle as much as a Sunday = afternoon entertainment recital. A serious recital is showing off what an organist = has learned during their course of study, their technical prowess (or lack = thereof, sometimes), demonstrating the colors of a newly installed organ, not the musical funnies. A Sunday afternoon or evening recital that is more = entertainment oriented can show off these same things AND incorporate some fun works = such as The Squirrel by Powell Weaver or Donkey Dance by Robert Elmore. Now I = will admit that I am the first one who will program pieces of this genre, BUT I = know when they are appropriate and when they are not. I also know what venues = will appreciate them and what venues will not.   It's like always using a chamade...less is more. The charming, cutesy = works are good bits of fluff, but one grows tired of always hearing them. I = have a chamade, but I don't use it every week.   I love cheesecake, but I wouldn't want to eat it at every meal. I want to = eat a balanced meal and have dessert once in a while.   32' Contre Bombardes are good stops, but not when used on the final verse = of every hymn and on every postlude. The effect wears off. Then what do you =   use?   What we all need to work on is making the best music we can on the instruments we have. We don't need to worry about whether or not we will get a standing ovation = or if we will make the audience laugh. We all need to concentrate on playing =   the correct notes at all times, being musical players, being informed = players (knowing the whats, the hows, the whys, etc. behing the music), and not = worry about all the extraneous stuff. We need to be the best musicians we can = be and stop worrying about things like ovations and levity until we have all the basics covered.   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame From: "Sand Lawn" <glawn@jam.rr.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:22:21 -0500   Standing ovations have become so conventional as be meaningless. The most =   satisfying feeling to me is what a former teacher called the "Blue Flame." =   There are times when a performer experiences a transcendental moment when = he or she merges with the music,the choir, soloist, or the instrument that = they are playing. When that occurs the audience will feel that is a magical moment .... silence is as appropriate as thunderous applause or a standing =   ovation. I have experienced it only once every three or four years, but = it makes my musical life worth more than any standing ovation. It can happen =   in church (when the congregation sings like "Blue Blazes", in a theatre performance when and underehearsed cast gives a magical performance. This =   is what I always hope to happen. As much practice as I put in, or how = much I urge the choir, it is an occurence so rare and so precious as to put standing ovations in the pale.   Does anyone know what I am talking about? Or am I just doing some mad late-night rambling?   Sand Lawn      
(back) Subject: ooops....a couple of typos in my post--corrected sentences From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:31:48 EDT   They should be purely spur of the moment events based on the performer's recital and his rapport with the audience.     We all need to concentrate on playing the correct notes at all times, = being musical players, being informed players (knowing the whats, the hows, the = whys, etc. BEHIND the music), and not worry about all the extraneous stuff.  
(back) Subject: RE: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:38:20 +1200   >Does anyone know what I am talking about? Or am I just doing some mad late-night rambling?   Sometimes this happens for preachers, too: they just 'know' they've got across and said something really worthwhile that has moved people. When = that happens, and it's not common, it has been when I've prepared a sermon and then tossed it away at the last second and spoken straight off the cuff = with no notes at all. Oh well (shrugs)..........   Yes, I know about the music thing, too. I don't give more than the very occasional recital, but the spark is there sometimes even for ordinary service-playing and the voluntaries, even if the music is not grand and = it's not a splendiferous occasion like Easter.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Sampling question From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:41:01 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Well I'm not going to repeat everything I said about "custom & practice" and the nature and intention of musical instruments. Frankly, I would regard any organ-builder who thinks that they have "copyright" on any particular pipe as quite insane, if they intend to base a legal case upon it.   There is another factor which has yet to be discussed.   Sebastian and others state that digital sampling and reproduction are inferior; thus countering the argument that the reproduced quality of a digital organ is an exact copy, when it patently is not.   Microphones have characteristics all their own, and no two are exactly alike, even when sold as matched pairs. Even digital recording techniques add noise, and also convert things from Analogue to Digital and back again in the finished product. Then there are loudspeakers, which are a bit of a law unto themselves. Then there are added transient noises and decay noises, which are usually synthesised.   So far from the "sample" being an accurate rendition of the original, it is nothing of the sort.   Anyway, in the final analysis, there isn't a pipe-organ builder on earth who would have the resources to take on a legal challenge against such as Allen Organs and remain in business. If they think that litigation is the path to some sort of gravy-train, they'd be well advised to concentrate on building organs, and not on trying to disparage the very clever people who have made such gigantic strides in electronic organ musicality.   If organ builders can't build pipe-organs because they are too expensive, that's life I'm afraid, and a fact of the marketplace.   Nobody owes anyone a living in this world.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- :   > Jason M. Taylor wrote: > > Any time you by a recording, you are buying the > right to play it for your > > own personal entertainment. If you believe that > you can re-record the > > content and sell it to someone else, you will be > found to be expensively > > mistaken. That is why there are copyright laws!.       ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:48:19 -0400   Sand and list members,   I know exactly what Sand is saying, having been involved with the = production of Musical Theatre for longer than I care to remember!   When I first came to Canada from England in 1968, I was astonished at sometimes mediocre productions always seemingly getting a standing = ovation. Over the years, this has grown to be the expected norm, be it an amateur production or a Broadway cast.   I haven't experienced it as much at organ recitals, but in the concert = hall, it seems that well before the last chord is finished, a group of fanatics will jump to their feet and roar their approval. This is even more = annoying when the concert is broadcast live, the listener at home does not get a chance to savour the performance because of these louts that must be the first on their feet have to have their performance added to that of the orchestra, choir or soloist.   I believe that this is a North American thing, I haven't noticed it when I =   have been "back home" and attended concerts or recitals. The sooner it comes to an end, the better!   Bob Conway   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sand Lawn" <glawn@jam.rr.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:22 AM Subject: Re: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame     > Standing ovations have become so conventional as be meaningless. The = most > satisfying feeling to me is what a former teacher called the "Blue = Flame." > There are times when a performer experiences a transcendental moment = when > he or she merges with the music,the choir, soloist, or the instrument = that > they are playing. When that occurs the audience will feel that is a > magical moment .... silence is as appropriate as thunderous applause or = a > standing ovation. <snip>    
(back) Subject: Re: German reed maker in 19th. century Paris From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:03:34 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Thanks to Stephen Roberts for the information, which I am sure is enormopusly interesting to some people, but not to myself particularly; not being an organ-builder for a very long time.   Edmund Schulze never made a metal pipe in his life....he didn't have a metal shop in the works at Paulinzella....but people still talk about his famous diapason tones. When he came to England, he possibly got the metal pipes and reeds from suppliers in the UK, but I'm not aware that anyone has ever identified to exact source. More importantly, Schulze dictated the scales and voiced them himself.   It is surely the results which count, and I'm not referring to academic ones.   I'm not aware that it was Herr Dr.Bach , or that Debussy was held in high academic regard. Some even criticise Chopin as a "poor composer" in academic papers. (I kid you not!)   Blue collar?   Well, I suppose Rembrant was blue collar....and red, yellow (marigold?) and puce also.....it's not a great handicap to achievement. My best friend is blue collar, worth about $60,000,000 and drives an Aston Martin!!   As for writing books, my recently completed novel runs to 720 pages without a wasted word, and whilst comic in parts, it is not light entertainment, I can assure anyone.   But why do I have to defend myself or anything I write?   I don't start the jibes, but I can sure as hell finish them when needs arise, as some people have found to their cost. I'm not quite the joker in the pack I sometimes pretend to be.   I am not going to get into trading personal insults with Sebastian or anyone else, but I would defend my right on this list and elsewhere, to challenge anything he or others write.....it's called freedom of speech!   Yet again, this all began with the tedious soap-box of electronic organ-bashing and outrageous statements of law, which then usually degenerate into some tirrade against "poor standards", "sad organists" who play digital instruments, "copyright thieves" and, when all else fails, outrage that anyone should question the statements by daring to discuss them on this, and any other list.   As a person, I may be quietly spoken, slightly shy and generally amiable, but within a business environment, I could make financial decisions in an instant. In the process, I would often destroy small or medium size companies at the stroke of a pen, and even get the bigger ones on the back-foot.   That's the reason I go on the attack, because I've seen people self-destruct too often, and I actually CARE. A sharp reminder of business reality and the ruthless nature of the marketplace, is often the kindest gesture to those in business, and I don't care whether they have a string of qualifications which would span the earth twice over, or whether they re-cycle oily rags....the same principles apply exactly.   I'm sorry if many pipe-organ builders are struggling in various parts of the world, but there is nothing I, or anyone else can do about it, and there will be casualties on the way.   I'm so pleased that I am not in business, or involve myself with finance anymore. Instead, I choose to drive a very large truck some of the time, so that I still have time to write rubbish like this, instead of working 15 hours a day!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   PS: If anyone wants to REALLY have a ding-dong battle, they should join "orgofftopic," where certain organists demonstrate that they really should be running the world....or destroying it.... as the muse takes us.       --- Stephen Roberts <sroberts01@snet.net> wrote:   > Dear List, > > Colin Mitchell challenged Sebastian Gluck to name > the German who made reeds for Cavaille-Coll. > > Apparently Colin doesn't > know Sebastian personally; if he did, he would know > that though Sebastian works as an organ builder, he > also holds advanced degrees--     ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: The Bronte Sisters (offtopic) From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:15:18 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   I live in Bronte country, I eat Bronte biscuits, I drive the Bronte trail, I walk past the Bronte Parsonage, the Bronte apothecary,I hear Bronte readings, I listen to Bronte "family concerts".....I even live on a bloody Bronte Drive.   I hate the name Bronte with a certain passion.   I'm surprised that they didn't call the Worth Valley Steam Railway the "Bronte Railway".   The nearest we get to that is the "Bronte carriage company."   I'm not surprised that Branwell Bronte took Opium.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK --- nelson denton <ndenton@cogeco.ca> wrote:   > My only claim to nobility is that one of my > ancestors was Sir Robin Hood and > another one was the Noble Lady who poisoned him. > > My family did live near the Bronte Sisters and went > to church with them, > however. > > Nelson > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Sampling question - and then again From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:29:58 +0100   And then again ...   there's a difference between what you do (or say you intend to do) in private - and what you get up to in public.   A sampled recording / sound used to stimulate your inventiveness, on your own, is not a public performance.   Using that sample in a club to add to a mix is 'performing' and should result in the original copyright being observed - unless the sample used = is less than ** seconds (here, substitute whatever time-scale is recognised = by the courts in your country).   That's how so many club DJ's get away with constant repetition of 2 seconds-worth of recording, played interminably.   Harry Grove [a.k.a. a musicman 'in da' groove'] _________________ and here we go with those ol' snippin' scissors   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 11:56 PM Subject: Re: Sampling question   > If you own the recording, you're free to do whatever you want with it,    
(back) Subject: voicing From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:42:23 +1200   Colin spoke of quality of voicing vs quality of pipework, or seemed to me = to have done so in part.   Yes, a good voicer can make something often wonderful out of junk, and = some beautifully made pipes of excellent are shoddy-sounding through lousy voicing. I can think of the Croft company here in NZ in past years, and especially of founder George Croft. He often bought cheap pipes of thin poorish metal, while his competitor Don Osborne usually pipes that were = far more expensive and of much better metal. Croft won in the voicing stakes, through sheer cussed quality.   I'm thinking especially of All Saints' Anglican, Palmerston North, built = on magnificent slider chests in 1929 by George Croft (and rebuilt to my directions in 1972, but that's a different story). Almost all the metal pipes are of thin zinc, being cheap Laukhuff pipes of no distinction whatever to look at. Even the strings are zinc to about the 4ft mark or = even higher. Yet the organ is one of NZ's finest, in large part because of the sheer quality of the voicing that George Croft gave to the pipes. When I first visited and inspected the guts of the organ, back in about 1960, I = was quite amazed to see the pipes. I remember feeling, "They shouldn't sound anywhere near as well as they do."   So, by buying cheap pipes and then voicing them so well, Croft was able to undercut Osborn's prices quite substantially, and there was a 40-year = period in which every single new organ in Auckland was built by Croft, despite competition from several other firms: they had to be content with rebuilds and go outside the Auckland area for brand-new work.   Croft, too, proved his worth in wood pipes, making some of the very finest open flutes, stopped flutes, open woods, violones and bourdons that I've ever heard, anywhere, in NZ or the UK.   And, blast him, he was self-taught in all respects, finishing his first organ as a mere teenager. :-)   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Standing Ovations... or the Blue Flame From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:59:57 -0600   Sand Lawn wrote: > ... the "Blue Flame." ... > it is an occurence so rare and so precious as to put standing > ovations in the pale. > > Does anyone know what I am talking about?     I have encountered this once in my 50+ years of attending recitals. Felix Hell played at Hollywood High School in 2002 on a recently restored EM Skinner; the piece was Rheinberger's "Abendfriede." On this night, on this instrument, magic was made; no comparison to the same piece as recorded on one of his CDs.   Mac Hayes  
(back) Subject: Re: The Bronte Sisters (offtopic) From: "Rev. Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:45:37 +0100   Hi Colin   We must be almost neighbours - I'm in Bradford.   Every Blessing   Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:15 AM Subject: The Bronte Sisters (offtopic)     > Hello, > > I live in Bronte country, I eat Bronte biscuits, I > drive the Bronte trail, I walk past the Bronte > Parsonage, the Bronte apothecary,I hear Bronte > readings, I listen to Bronte "family concerts".....I > even live on a bloody Bronte Drive. > > I hate the name Bronte with a certain passion. > > I'm surprised that they didn't call the Worth Valley > Steam Railway the "Bronte Railway". > > The nearest we get to that is the "Bronte carriage > company." > > I'm not surprised that Branwell Bronte took Opium. > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > --- nelson denton <ndenton@cogeco.ca> wrote: > >> My only claim to nobility is that one of my >> ancestors was Sir Robin Hood and >> another one was the Noble Lady who poisoned him. >> >> My family did live near the Bronte Sisters and went >> to church with them, >> however. >> >> Nelson >> >> >> > ****************************************************************** >> "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >> PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital >> organs & related topics >> HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >> List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >> Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >> List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >