PipeChat Digest #5449 - Thursday, July 7, 2005
 
Re: Sampling Question - OFFTOPIC
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com>
Travels to Europe!
  by <Gordongoede@aol.com>
Re: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear...
  by <AGODRDANB@aol.com>
Re: Schools taking international tours
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com>
Re: Schools taking international tours
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Johannus sound module for sale
  by "Roy Daniels" <roydanls@sbcglobal.net>
Re: Schools taking international tours
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
Re: MP3 file: - Orwig Spirituals for Organ - no. 1 Dem Bones
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
RE: Audience response: was ovations
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Email addresses
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
Re: Organ in Roslindale, MA
  by "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net>
Re: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear...
  by "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net>
RE: Fort Chest
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
RE: Organ in Roslindale, MA
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear...
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
Re: Schools taking international tours
  by "Mura Kievman" <mkievman@nyc.rr.com>
RE: Travels to Europe!
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
RE: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear...
  by "Douglas Henn-Macrae" <douglas@henn-macrae.com>
electroids again
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
copying/sampling
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Sampling Question - OFFTOPIC From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:58:18 -0700   You beat me to the punch ... I'm surprised there isn't more presence of GM here in the States ... or not, since everyone is going for the $500 Casio PX100 and think Yamaha and Roland are the only other game in town.   On 7/6/05, Keys4bach@aol.com <Keys4bach@aol.com> wrote: >=20 > In a message dated 7/6/2005 12:56:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > mach37@comcast.net writes: >=20 > wonder if there are any digitals today that can sustain a note > or chord for more than ten seconds? >=20 > why yes, > go try the General Music digital keyboards............ >=20 > the home line has a couple of nice ones and we had a ProMega 3 at my last > little Lutheran Church that just knocked your socks off.... >=20 > dale in hot but hurricane watching Florida   --=20 Jan Nijhuis nijhuis.jan@gmail.com  
(back) Subject: Travels to Europe! From: <Gordongoede@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:02:57 EDT   Me thinks that the reason the professor is requiring travel from the = student is that the professor has a minimum number to take and, once he reaches = this number, he can travel for free. The student should head to the dean or to the provost of his university. = But then again, I might be wrong--but I don't think so! Gordon Goede in Fresno, California  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear... From: <AGODRDANB@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:10:20 EDT   Hello List; I must agree with Arie V. The better well installed e-orgs can be almost acceptable, though = they do not have the 'magic' of pipes. So often the church envirnment, (speaking both of the physical building, and the general attitute of the powers that govern) = dictate so much. I have played weddings in modern churches that have low = ceilings with acous tic tile, fluffy carpet and padded pews, and in this room = nothing could sound good. I have also seen spledid old gothic buildings where the organ = got leaked on or started on fire etc. and the replacement was E. = But in a good live acoustic with a medium to high end E-org the result was not too bad. I recall a church which bought a Saville to use while they = raised money to rebuild their old Hinners which had met with wet tragedy. I played a wedding their and was so impressed that I bought a Saville for = my home practice instrument. I later played another wedding in the same church after the = Pipe organ had been refinished, and of course the Pipe instrument = was magnificent and the the church was glad that they hadn't = settled for the E-org. But it says a lot about the building acoustics making the electronic sound good. Incidently the I believe the pipe organ was rebuilt by Quimby, =   who is a magician, If you have not had the pleasure of playing one of Mike = Quimby's new or re-built instruments you are missing one of those truley wonderful experiences where the instrument is all you hope for! regards, Dr. Dan  
(back) Subject: Re: Schools taking international tours From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:20:22 -0700   Unless it's stipulated as a class requisite. Even then I would think the cost, planning and execution of the trip are included in the tuition. If it's a short-term class (which this probably isn't) there is the additional burden of obtraining a passport in short order. Not always convenient; and may require more time off from work to spend a day in the nearest big city with a passport office filling in forms in triplicate.   True a trip around Europe to witness the finest instruments is wonderful; but ask yourself, is it really necessary to hear the Harrison-Harrison at Westminster Abbey, the Muller at St. Bavo and the Cavaill=E9-Coll in Notre Dame. Who decides which instruments to visit? What is the local transportation like? To get the sense of the variety of instruments, they are going to be in different countries.   Will there be a side trip to Padua to visit Ruffatti; wouldl there be side trips to Ede to watch brand "J" (and it's English sibling "M") roll off the assembly line?   On 7/6/05, Desiree' <nicemusica@yahoo.com> wrote: > Today I was talkiong to a friend who says that their > class is going on a trip to Europe. She said it's > almost to the point that the professor is requiring > all 4 of the organ majors to go. However, she told me > that one of the organ students works a church job and > a campus job just to get thru school. Money is not > there for extra things. >=20 > Would it be just to require this sutdent to spend the > many thousands of dollars to go to Europe, when that > money can easily go towards the next semester ao > school? >=20 > TDH --=20 Jan Nijhuis nijhuis.jan@gmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Schools taking international tours From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:40:01 -0700 (PDT)   Thats just the thing, most of the collegees do not figure the tours into that years tuition. The school I have chosen does not do that unless the professor asks them to make it part of the tuition. Besides, its ina major city...the world will be at my tips and toes.   TDH   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Johannus sound module for sale From: "Roy Daniels" <roydanls@sbcglobal.net> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:49:19 -0700 (PDT)   St. Michael's is offering their Johannus sound module model CSM-128 for = sale. It is only 4 years old and seldom used so is in perfect shape. = Original cost was $1400..asking $850. It is very user friendly, has 48 = sounds and you can have multiple sounds on each channel. Please email me = at roydanls@sbcglobal.net for any further info. Shipping is included. Roy = Daniels  
(back) Subject: Re: Schools taking international tours From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:36:03 EDT   Many colleges and universities take short term (winter or summer term) = trips for ONE specific course. Very often these are not/cannot be planned well enough in advance, = neither could they be worked "into the tuition" - since the tuition must be the = same, across the board, for ALL students of the institution. The cost of such a trip MUST be separate - nce they often include fewer = than 40 students, i.e., "Scuba Diving in the Caribbean" for Phys Ed teaching program students, or "Field Study of Paris Cathedral organs and French = organ music" (not really applicable to music majors other than organ = performance/church music concentrations), though perhaps available for any and all who might =   want to and can afford to go to fulfill a "general ed" course and enjoy = the travel all-the-while. Enough on this subject, me thinks. Dale of Missouri a.k.a., George of Jungle  
(back) Subject: Re: MP3 file: - Orwig Spirituals for Organ - no. 1 Dem Bones From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:38:53 EDT   In a message dated 7/6/2005 7:10:53 A.M. Central Standard Time, jovanderlee@vassar.edu writes:   "Deep River" is not a spiritual     Oh really! - funny it's listed in countless collections as a spiritual - perhaps it's a WHITE spiritual. And, perhaps, some of us (me included) = need to pull out GROVES and see (again) exactly what a "spiritual" IS. Dale G. Rider , MSacredMus, CAGO Organist, Composer, Music Engraver (Finale)  
(back) Subject: RE: Audience response: was ovations From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:57:50 -0500   It's a shame they were not Navels - good eating. Hmmmm, perhaps that's why . . .   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com (who uses elderberries in season in a peashooter - takes too much sugar to make jelly or wine with them; hollow-points can be lethal)     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of TubaMagna@aol.com   I find that being struck by a Valencia orange, pitched overhand like a baseball at 92 miles per hour, is far more painful than being simply pelted with eggs. There seems to be no correlation between the literature I choose to play and what the audience throws.        
(back) Subject: Email addresses From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:10:33 -0400   Please excuse this interruption.   Jonathan Orwig and Dudel, would you email me please? I've misplaced both = of your addresses.   Thanky.   --Shirley    
(back) Subject: Re: Organ in Roslindale, MA From: "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:28:42 -0400   >>Everyone: if you hear of instruments being dumped, please ask the folk concerned if they'd be willing to freight them to NZ as a mark of respect for the instrument and as a gift to somebody who'd love to have an organ but could never afford one. <<   Good evening,   Would the celestes have to be lost in transit? (C;   - Nate    
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear... From: "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:37:35 -0400   Good Evening....   Question.   What is the state of the art of electronic organs these days? I was under the impression that the builders were moving away from samples and modeling/generating the sounds on the fly with hardware instead. The reason why I ask is this:   There is a Casavant in CT that has just been moved to a new building (glorious accoustics). There are some Walker voices on it that are maybe 7-10 years old. First let me say that my career flashed before my eyes when I turned the little knob to bring the Walkers in tune with the Casavant; but I digress... Secondly, I went through the fourths and fifths and noted that there was no sign of a temperament having been set (I highly doubt that the organ was ever tuned in unequal). Lastly, I checked it three notes at a time in octaves and it was not in tune with itself that way. So, my next question is this:   Does each note, or even electronic "pipe" have it's own model with its own tuning pot?   Best,   Nate    
(back) Subject: RE: Fort Chest From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:48:54 EDT   Greetings all,   Has anyone had anyone had dealings with windchests built by John Fort of Texas? A friend is interested in finding out just what kind of pallet = Fort used in his so-called "membrane" pallet & slider chests. Since he uses a "membrane" (similar to a Moller Bar Chest) for the stop action, there are = no sliders. One person says that Fort uses direct electric magnets instead of = pallets, so calling the thing a pallet & slider chest when it has neither has me highly amused. IHe is also interested to know if anyone has tried to = convert the "membrane" stop action to an actual slider.   Please respond directly to [mlauffer "at" ameritech (dot) net] about = the Fort chests. Also, write "Fort Chest" in the subject line so that Mike = knows you are responding to this request. Thank you very much for any help on this matter. Stan Krider  
(back) Subject: RE: Organ in Roslindale, MA From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:25:14 +1200   >Good evening, Would the celestes have to be lost in transit? (C;   No, Nate, not at all. If there ever were an instrument from the USA to = come to NZ, it'd be especially good to keep it as original as possible.   For my own home organ, I have (perhaps a surprise to you) two Gambas and their Celestes, unharmed, one from c1922 and the other from 1929. Both Gambas go to CC. I also have a wonderful Laukhuff Salicional to CC and = will see if a spare Celeste I have will tonally go with that. My hassle for my own organ is lack of chest space and affording the solid-state circuitry = to drive it - I have stacks of pipes, cables, blowing-capacity and a superb console.   To return: we have only two USA organs in NZ apart from a small handful of WurliTzers. One is a 2m Kimball of about 7 stops, from c1920. The other is = a radically-rebuilt Kilgen, originally about 8 stops and rehashed some years ago and now unrecognisable visually and tonally.   The church I take services at, and also frequently play for, seats about 350, has dead acoustics (padded seats and the entire floor carpeted) and = is a rather ugly rectangle with a fairly-flat hip roof. There is a very large gallery at the back, totally unused except for storing junk which could be moved elsewhere. The gallery is about 50ft wide, 30ft deep, and some 5ft6" high at the sides and 11ft in the centre. (We have a 2m electroid 14 years old, and the thing is inoffensive and loud enough, but has no excitement = and no real quality at all. The two 12" speakers are all it has apart from console speakers, at the apex of the east wall above the altar). I'd = dearly love to be able to install something in the rear gallery, and it wouldn't matter if it were a large 2m or even a 3m as there's so much room. A 16ft pedal Open could easily be installed horizontally, too. With that, I have two organbuilding friends, one almost retired and the other part-time, = both of whom would be more than happy to donate time and expertise in tricky = bits I couldn't do myself. Is there anyone, organ-owner, organ-builder or = church, that has the ability to send an old organ here for a music-starved = pensioner like me that wants his church to have something worth playing???? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Yes, I'm doing a grovel and a plea and a begging. The = parish has no choir and a nil budget for music, and not even a Director of Music, the 3 or 4 organists being on a roster system, and that includes me of course.   I live in a community of some 30,000 people and there are at least another dozen churches in the area, not one of which has a pipe organ at all. The nearest pipe organ going north is a 1m of 4rks some 30km away. If you head east you hit a mountain range just nearby. If you head west, you find the Tasman Sea about 4km away. If you head south, the nearest pipe organ is a 2m, very shoddy in design and tone, of about 9 stops, installed in a = Baptist Church that doesn't use the instrument much but won't part with it, ever. And the nearest to that is another 10km south where an Anglican church has = a 4rk 2m unit organ from the 1960s. If you go north another 20km from the 1m 4rk job I mentioned, there are about 5 organs in the town there but that's much too far for me to go to.   Our parish church is used for concerts by two community choirs for several concerts each per year. One the Kapiti Chorale, has about 85 to 90 members at present and does big works like the Faure Requiem, Gounod's Messe Solenelle (both of these at a concert this month), Mendelssohn's Elijah, = the Verdi Requiem, and so on. The Kapiti Chamber Choir has about 25 voices and is much the better of the two choirs, doing more difficult works than the Chorale. Early this year, we combined forces for a big concert. Other = groups use the church as well for concerts. None of the groups, however, has any money to spare, using all their ticket sales to cover costs only.   With a great many retired people in this area, there would be a good and ready audience for organ recitals, were this to be possible, as I know = from asking round and seeing the size of the audience for choral concerts.   The parish, sadly, will not begin an organ fund and has no sinking fund = even to replace the electroid in due course. I do feel, though, that if I were = to ask to use the unused west gallery of the church for an organ, at no cost = to the parish, I'd get permission as I give a lot of my time playing the = organ about 3 to 4 times a month (we have three churches in the parish, all with electroids) and taking 2 to 3 services a month as well (I'm a retired Vicar).   PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People often speak here of the abundance of organs being dumped or put in storage in the USA. Is there = any way an instrument for us could be sent over?????   Thanks for listening to my tale of woe...   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear... From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:33:32 -0500   At 08:37 PM 7/6/2005, Nate wrote: >Good Evening.... > Question. > Does each note, or even electronic "pipe" have it's own model > with its own tuning pot?   Quick answer: yes.   On Walker systems I've worked with, it is all accomplished via proprietary computer "voicing" software which allows adjustment of a number of variables for each note of each stop, with tuning being only one of the possible adjustments. There are no physical "pots".   I'd imagine that other modern e-org/augmentation systems are similar in their operation and programming/voicing, but have no firsthand experience with them.   Hope this helps --   Tim      
(back) Subject: Re: Schools taking international tours From: "Mura Kievman" <mkievman@nyc.rr.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:48:30 -0400   At 07:20 PM 7/6/2005, Jan N. wrote (responding to Desiree's post):   <Unless it's stipulated as a class requisite. Even then I would think the cost, planning and execution of the trip are included in the tuition. If it's a short-term class (which this probably isn't) there is the additional burden of obtraining a passport in short order. Not always convenient; and may require more time off from work to spend a day in the nearest big city with a passport office filling in forms in triplicate.>     A lurker (singer) will now chime in. First of all, the teacher needs to consider if the students can afford to pay for such a jaunt. If they can, that's fine. If it's a hardship ... that seems a no-brainer to = me.   This reminds me of stories about teachers of very young students who say "create a card for your mother on Mother's Day" without considering that maybe some of the children don't HAVE a mother.   If I had been offered such an opportunity as a college student (I wasn't), my parents would have been happy to pony up the money. But I had friends who could NOT have done so.   Methinks some professors need a little sensitivity training.   Mura        
(back) Subject: RE: Travels to Europe! From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:41:11 +0100   If there are only 4 organ majors that would not entitle the Professor to free travel - such deals are only usually available to parties of 15 or so...   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Gordongoede@aol.com Sent: 07 July 2005 00:03 To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Travels to Europe!   Me thinks that the reason the professor is requiring travel from the student=20 is that the professor has a minimum number to take and, once he reaches this=20 number, he can travel for free. =20 The student should head to the dean or to the provost of his = university. =20 =20 But then again, I might be wrong--but I don't think so! =20 Gordon Goede in Fresno, California =20        
(back) Subject: RE: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear... From: "Douglas Henn-Macrae" <douglas@henn-macrae.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:09:58 +0100   Hi, Nathan,   >> "What is the state of the art of electronic organs these days?"   IMHO: Off-the-shelf standard models - mostly OK, mediocre to good. You get what you pay for (though some - from US makers, dare I say - are way = over-priced and have far too many gadgets that most people would never use). Top-of-the-range custom building - excellent (eg firms such as = Copeman-Hart, Phoenix, Hugh Banton, Veritas...).   >> "I was under the impression that the builders were moving away from samples and modeling/generating the sounds on the fly with hardware instead."   To the best of my knowledge (and other list members will please correct me if I am mistaken) nearly all the main European and US mass-producers - ie Allen, Rodgers, Johannus/Makin, Ahlborn/Galanti, Viscount, Content - as = well as Walker, use sampling. (Eminent, is, I believe, the exception, and I'm = not sure about Cantor.)   Except for Phoenix, which is sample-based (but a million miles away from those mentioned above), all the high-end end custom-builders that I know = of use synthesis - mostly with Musicom hardware (at least outside the UK), though some here use the Bradford system (of which Musicom is a variant). With all of these, every note of every rank is voiceable (in the building, via a laptop) over umpteen parameters. If I have understood it correctly, synthesis gives you virtually infinite possibilities (since you are = starting from scratch), whereas sampling will still bear some resemblance to the original sample. Some builders who add digital voices to pipe organs now have a system which senses every minute temperature change and adjusts the tuning of the digital voices to follow the pipes.   Hope this helps.   Best wishes, Douglas.       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Smith Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:38 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Pipe Organ Builders Need Not Fear...   Good Evening....   Question.   What is the state of the art of electronic organs these days? I was under the impression that the builders were moving away from samples and modeling/generating the sounds on the fly with hardware instead. The reason why I ask is this:   There is a Casavant in CT that has just been moved to a new building (glorious accoustics). There are some Walker voices on it that are maybe 7-10 years old. First let me say that my career flashed before my eyes when I turned the little knob to bring the Walkers in tune with the Casavant; but I digress... Secondly, I went through the fourths and fifths and noted that there was no sign of a temperament having been set (I highly doubt that the organ was ever tuned in unequal). Lastly, I checked it three notes at a time in octaves and it was not in tune with itself that way. So, my next question is this:   Does each note, or even electronic "pipe" have it's own model with its own tuning pot?   Best,   Nate     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>        
(back) Subject: electroids again From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 19:44:36 +1200   Since there's been discussion of things electronic yet again, I wonder if = I could ask a question about them. If the sounds of, say, Allen instruments are sampled from real pipes, has ANYONE ever heard a stop on an Allen that they would recognise and say "Yes, that's a Clicquot Cormone, or a Henry Willis Cornopean, or a Bishop Claribel, or a Skinner Gemshorn, or = whatever?" I certainly never have, and don't expect to. If no one else has ever done so, either (and I won't prejudge the issue) then no one can say, not even the Allen company itself, that their method of sampling and playback reproduces the sound of the original pipes. It should be possible, if the sound resembles the original, to recognise stops now and again at least, = and even a Diapason chorus.   Take an example: there is just no way anyone could produce an 8ft Open Diapason that sounds like T.C.Lewis, even though Schulze, Bishop and = Hunter may have produced ranks in some ways similar. And again, Willis Swell = reeds are unmistakeable, as are Wm Hill flutes.   I presume that in the USA and Canada, people should be able to recognise stops by Casavant or Skinner or Holtkamp or Moller or whatever? Do Allen, = or any other company, ever admit which of their stops is said to come from which instrument or which builder? If not, it's presumably because that would be to admit the failure of their system.   Just a thought, but I'm curious to see if I can get an answer.   Ross    
(back) Subject: copying/sampling From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:17:20 +1200   Forgot to mention another point over my query about trying to recognise = who was sampled for electroid's sounds:   If no one can recognise any (pipe) organ builder's sounds in an = electronic, how could you say that copyright was breached? After all, a copy is a = copy, but if I think I'm making a copy though merely produce something that the original artist would never recognise, nor anyone else, I can't exactly be charged with copying, can I? To me, this is a question to answer before anyone can even discuss whether "sampling" is legitimate or not.   Ross