PipeChat Digest #5473 - Tuesday, July 26, 2005
 
Re: Watervliet Jardine
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Watervliet Jardine
  by "Rev. Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com>
Re: Watervliet Jardine
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Watervliet Jardine
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Carlo Curley and Fleury
  by <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com>
OHS continued
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
Re: Carlo Curley and Fleury
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Watervliet Jardine
  by "Rev. Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com>
Re: Watervliet Jardine
  by <RUXTONCAR@aol.com>
Fw: Bach book- NOT fiction
  by "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net>
Re: Bach book- NOT fiction
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Bach book- NOT fiction
  by "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net>
Re: Carlo Curley and Fleury
  by "Scott A Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Refurbished Hradetzky (x post)
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:35:35 -0500   Tony   There were two different Jardine Companies - One in the US and the other in the UK. Judy was referring to the North American Jardine Company. If I am not mistaken there was a "family" relationship between the on in the US and the one in the UK but I can't quite remember what it is right now. I hav3e a feeling that John Speller or Sebastian Gluck can fill us in on what that relationship was.   David   At 9:03 AM +0100 7/25/05, Rev. Tony Newnham wrote: >Hi > >NPOR lists a number of Jardine 3 manuals with recent survey dates in >the UK, and there's several more that may still be in use, but that >we have no recent information to confirm the current position. > >Every Blessing > >Tony >----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" ><71431.2534@compuserve.com> >To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:07 AM >Subject: Watervliet Jardine > > ><SNIP>> Quite a collection there, don't know if he ever finished >putting together >>the Johnson. >>I loved that Jardine, the only 3 manual existing I think. >>Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine From: "Rev. Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:06:37 +0100   Hi David   I think I've heard somewhere that one of the Jardines worked in USA for a while, and then returned to England.   Dictionary of British Organ Builders (available from the BIOS web site www.bios.org.uk) has the following entries:-   NPOR search V5.3 on Monday, July 25, 2005 =A9 The British Institute of Organ Studies 2004   JARDINE (Firm) Born: Died: Established: Floruit: 1866-74/88- Located: Manchester Trade: ob Remarks: see RENN for antecedents; trading as Thorold & Smith 1874-1888   Titles used by this firm Kirtland & Jardine 1850-1866 Jardine & Co 1866-1874 Thorold & Smith 1874-1888 Jardine & Co 1888-1950+ Jardine & Co., Limited 1914-15ad     Cross references for this builder Kirtland & Jardine - successors to Thorold & Smith - the name reverted to by (in 1888)     JARDINE Frederick Wincott Born: 1822 Died: 1907 Established: Floruit: 1837-1874 Located: Manchester Trade: ob Remarks: with George Jardine, uncle, ob, New York, USA, 1837-1842   Cross references for this builder Bishop, James Chapman - trained with Kirtland, James - partner with (Kirtland & Jardine 1850-66) Renn, Sarah - worked with (1846) Thorold & Smith - succeeded by (1874)     JARDINE George Born: 1800 Died: 1882 Established: Floruit: 1837< Located: London; USA Trade: ob Remarks: to USA 1837; established own firm in New York after 1837   I think there was an article in "The Organ" several years ago - I don't = have time to try and find it at present. Maybe someone else can clarify. IIRC =   F.W. Jardine worked both in New York (with his uncle) and then returned to =   UK and took over his old firm, but I may be wrong.   Every Blessing   Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine     > Tony > > There were two different Jardine Companies - One in the US and the other =   > in the UK.    
(back) Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:41:06 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rev. Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 6:06 AM Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine     > Hi David > > I think I've heard somewhere that one of the Jardines worked in USA for = a > while, and then returned to England.   <snip>   Yes, you basically have it right here. George Jardine, who founded the American firm, apprenticed with Flight & Robson in London and rose to a senior position in the firm before they went out of business in the = 1830's. He then went to work with J. W. Walker before going to New York to found = his own business. I think this was in about 1837 although I only have the = date from memory and may be a year or two out. Meanwhile his nephew, = Frederick, was also working for Walker and when George Jardine had founded his firm Frederick went over to New York and worked with him, before returning to Manchester to work with Kirtland in what was to become the English Jardine firm. The latter was still in business in the 1950's.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:05:55 -0500   At 6:41 AM -0500 7/25/05, John L. Speller wrote: >Yes, you basically have it right here. George Jardine, who founded the >American firm, apprenticed with Flight & Robson in London and rose to a >senior position in the firm before they went out of business in the = 1830's. >He then went to work with J. W. Walker before going to New York to found = his >own business. I think this was in about 1837 although I only have the = date >from memory and may be a year or two out. Meanwhile his nephew, = Frederick, >was also working for Walker and when George Jardine had founded his firm >Frederick went over to New York and worked with him, before returning to >Manchester to work with Kirtland in what was to become the English = Jardine >firm. The latter was still in business in the 1950's.   There are numerous entries for the Jardines in the David Fox "Guide to North American Organ Builders"   The ones that are relevant to this discussion are:   Jardine, Frederick W. Nephew of George Jardine; with George Jardine firm in New York City, NY; returned to England; partner in Kirtland & Jardine of Manchester, England. [Cameron]   Jardine, George Born 1 Nov. 1800 in Dartford, Kent, England; brother of John Jardine, father of Dudley, Edward G., Frederick W., Joseph, and Joseph P. Jardine; apprentice with Flight & Robson of London, England; with Joseph W. Walker of London, England; immigrated to U.S., 1837; with Firth, Hall & Pond of New York City, NY; made barrel, then church organs with sons in New York City, NY; died 12 Feb. 1882 in New York City, NY. [OC: 162; OG: 111; Pinel]   George Jardine & Son Established by George Jardine in New York City, NY after 1837; made barrel, then church organs; ''& Son'' added to name, c. 1855; firm headed by Edward G. Jardine after 1883; firm continued by Edward D. and Charles Jardine; merged with business of Carlton Michell, 1897; firm dissolved, 1900. [SNIP] [OC: 162, 258; OH: 1985:18]   David  
(back) Subject: Re: Carlo Curley and Fleury From: <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:04:17 EDT   Hi, Y'all, It's interesting that the elimination round for NYACOP include the "Vif" from the Second Symphony, the Dupre C Major P & F, and the Bach b minor P = & F. If I remember correctly, Robbe Delcamp recorded the "other" Dupre three preludes and fugues in the Naxos series. Maybe the reason the Fleury is on = back order is that all the contestants have ordered it from OHS, too. :) Yours, Darryl by the Sea  
(back) Subject: OHS continued From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:25:43 -0400   Before I continue with Sunday events, I might mention how good the food = was on this Convention. We had 4 additional "special meal" events after the slow Abbey Grill on Thursday, all were well-paced with great food. Other than New Orleans which had better food than organs, this one was tops for me. Friday night we had a Portuguese Feast in Acushnet at a large reception hall. Sat. night found us at an outdoor clambake cooked in the = traditional manner in a deep pit with heated rocks covered with seaweed and canvas, prepared by church parishioners who do this at least 3 times a year, all sold out. I found out that they get $29. per person for the all-you-can-eat meals. I'm sure we had a group rate for this special one. =   Both meals were excellent, all you could eat. Sunday we attended an organ demo. at an historic parish in Duxbury dating to 1840 with earlier original colonial fixtures. The doors were left open with a small breeze wafting through. Frances Conover Fitch played an 1853 W.B.D. Simmons tracker rebuilt by Andover Organ Co. in 1967. The hymn singing continued to be fulfilling throughout the convention, I sometimes stopped singing to listen. This hymn was Wesley's Lead Me Lord with different words, very familiar tune for choir members. We then continued to Plymouth MA, now a busy town, stopped to see a huge Freedom Statue on top of a hill, then to Plymouth Plantation. The aunthentically costumed and trained "village people" who went about their daily work while speaking in the 1627 dialect and not commenting on any topic dating later than that, were most interesting, as well as was the recreated village with its thatched roofs, fortress, chickens wandering around, Black Angus steers, house "furnishings". I had an animated conversation with "Myles Standish" who also visited us during our evening meal. I told him a "relative" was born on the Mayflower, the first baby born to the Pilgrims after arriving here, he told me that Peregrine White was born on the ship in the harbor, he was now age 7, his father had died the first winter, and his mother remarried to Mr. Winslow, so Peregrine = was now Mr. Winslow's stepson. I asked him if they had boats, he said yes, "did they fish?", he said yes but mostly they traded up the coast as far = as the Kennebec (now Maine). The natives there did not know about corn-growing so they taught them and brought corn, and traded for beaver pelts which were made into hats and clothing. The Pilgrims also sang hymns, but did not know anything about "organs". I showed one girl my convention badge, she said "I cannot read". One Californian stopped by, the girl said she knew there were Spanish in Californ-ee-a and in Flor-ee-da. When asked how she knew this she replied "from Mr. Hopkins I believe". We had a Pilgrim Feast in an outdoor pavilion, jammed together like sardines at long tables where many many platters of various eatables were passed around, including large chunks of bread, greens with egg and vinegar, freshwater mussels, turkey slices, pork slices, cooked cabbage, dressing, custard pie, cheese, dried prunes and grapes. I said to "Myles Standish" that there might not be enough for his people after such a feast, he said "we have much food, and you do not know where our food is kept". Then we went back to the town center to the Church of the Pilgrimage for organist Brian Jones and narrator and pianist Peter Gomes who kept us singing for 2 hours in a very warm sanctuary. Monday - to be continued. Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: Re: Carlo Curley and Fleury From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:44:35 -0500   Carlo Curley is organist and choir master of St. John's Church, = Hammersmith, London, where there is a very fine three-manual Lewis organ.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine From: "Rev. Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:05:01 +0100   Hi David   Thanks for the extra info. - I don't have access to the American book.   Every Blessing   Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine     > At 6:41 AM -0500 7/25/05, John L. Speller wrote: >>Yes, you basically have it right here.  
(back) Subject: Re: Watervliet Jardine From: <RUXTONCAR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:29:10 EDT   William Rowland of Onkto and Young has made a study of the Jardine matter. = Apparently the standard histories are not entirely accurate in this = regard.   An interesting matter Mr. Rowland brought up to me is that not all = Jardines in the US are from the New York factory, but that some came from England = and that organs were run through the blockade during the unpleasantness = between the States. He is trying to enumerate all Jardines, and indentify those that originated in the UK.   As I understand it there is little difference between the methodologies of =   the two branches of the company.   Perhaps he will chime in to this discussion....   I am interested in the matter of Jardine MERGING with Michell's business = and wonder if anyone can provide an accurate chronology of Michell's peregrinations. I was unaware that he had a "business" in 1897 and it is = not clear that the Michell, Cole and Woodberry in Germantown represents a business but rather = a collaboration (James Cole was associated with Michell in the UK). Michell = also designed an organ for Baltimore (the church escapes me: Mt. Calvary or Emmanuel) which was "built" by the first Hope-Jones operation in the US. =   Subsequently he is found associated for brief periods with Cole and = Woodberry, Hutichings, Jardine, possibly Hook and Hastings, and finally Austin before = returning to the UK where the list continues: Norman and Beard, Harrison and = Harrison (with Dixon), and ultimately Casavant!   There are indications of financial difficulties leading to the closing of = the company. One wonders if this had to do with problems arising with early electric actions. I tend to attribute the poor survival rate of the larger = Jardines to the fact that they built many organs for prominent churches and that = these were quickly replaced with more fashionable organs - money being plentiful = in those places.   The Watervliet Jardine sounds very interesting.   Cheers   Carl Schwartz  
(back) Subject: Fw: Bach book- NOT fiction From: "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:47:51 -0400   It's absolutely worth reading. Most of the book is NOT fiction, and the stories of the lives of both Sebastian Bach and Frederick the Great are = told interestingly and well. I might quibble with only a detail or two about Bach--it's mostly right on and very vivid.   The conjecture comes in with the details of the visit, but even the conjecture is a well educated guess.   I couldn't put the book down until I had finished it and plan to read it again very soon.   Thomas Dressler Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania   http://www.thomasdressler.com     ----- Original Message ----- From: "bnorth" <bnorth@intergate.ca> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:07 AM Subject: Bach book-fiction     Summer reading season, and I wondered if any on the list had read a copy = of "Evening in the Palace of Reason" , a fictional account of the clash of belief and reason at a meeting of JS Bach and Frederick the Great, and = would care to comment, worth reading? Thanks, Bob    
(back) Subject: Re: Bach book- NOT fiction From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:30:02 -0500   J. S. Bach and Frederic the Great did in fact meet. Carl Philip Emmanuel Bach was Frederic's court musician, and J. S. Bach happened to be there visiting his son. Frederic the Great came by and C.P.E. Bach introduced them. Frederic the Great shook J. S. Bach by the hand and said, "And now = I shall be able to say that I have shaken the hand of the great Johann Sebastian Bach!" I believe that was all the conversation there was.   John Speller   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 9:47 AM Subject: Fw: Bach book- NOT fiction     > It's absolutely worth reading. Most of the book is NOT fiction, and the > stories of the lives of both Sebastian Bach and Frederick the Great are told > interestingly and well. I might quibble with only a detail or two about > Bach--it's mostly right on and very vivid. > > The conjecture comes in with the details of the visit, but even the > conjecture is a well educated guess. > > I couldn't put the book down until I had finished it and plan to read it > again very soon. > > Thomas Dressler > Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania > > http://www.thomasdressler.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bnorth" <bnorth@intergate.ca> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:07 AM > Subject: Bach book-fiction > > > Summer reading season, and I wondered if any on the list had read a copy of > "Evening in the Palace of Reason" , a fictional account of the clash of > belief and reason at a meeting of JS Bach and Frederick the Great, and would > care to comment, worth reading? Thanks, Bob      
(back) Subject: Re: Bach book- NOT fiction From: "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:52:05 -0400   From the detailed accounts of the visit which do exist, it was much more complicated than that, and involved Sebastian Bach being led to all the fortepianos Frederick owned and being asked to play them, as well as the organs in town. It was on that visit that Bach was believed to have played =   his last organ recital. Yes, Bach had come to visit his son and grandson, but it was a = multi-purpose visit. He was also on his way to deliver the Goldberg Variations, and at = the same time, he was fulfilling a long-time request of Frederick's to meet = him. All of these facts are documented and true. The conjecture in the book involves Frederick's psychological motivation for putting Bach to the test =   with an unbelievably difficult fugue subject (which Frederick probably = could not have written) and whether his intention was to humiliate Sebastian in front of a group of famous musicians. Rather than a brief, chance meeting, =   this was well planned, and the conversation between the two had to have = been quite involved. As a matter of fact, when Frederick realized Sebastian = Bach had arrived, he immediately cancelled the recital for that evening and had =   Bach summoned immediately, without time to even change his clothes.   The book is extremely well written and researched, with a welcome bit of psychological conjecture.   Thomas Dressler Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania   http://www.thomasdressler.com     ----- Original Message ----- From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Bach book- NOT fiction     > J. S. Bach and Frederic the Great did in fact meet. Carl Philip = Emmanuel > Bach was Frederic's court musician, and J. S. Bach happened to be there > visiting his son. Frederic the Great came by and C.P.E. Bach introduced > them. Frederic the Great shook J. S. Bach by the hand and said, "And = now > I > shall be able to say that I have shaken the hand of the great Johann > Sebastian Bach!" I believe that was all the conversation there was. > > John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: Carlo Curley and Fleury From: "Scott A Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT)   You are probably right!   DarrylbytheSea@aol.com wrote:Hi, Y'all,   It's interesting that the elimination round for NYACOP include the "Vif" from the Second Symphony, the Dupre C Major P & F, and the Bach b minor P = & F. If I remember correctly, Robbe Delcamp recorded the "other" Dupre three preludes and fugues in the Naxos series. Maybe the reason the Fleury is on = back order is that all the contestants have ordered it from OHS, too. :)   Yours,   Darryl by the Sea   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:         Scott Montgomery 1820 Scottsdale Dr. Champaign, IL 61821 217-390-0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net    
(back) Subject: Refurbished Hradetzky (x post) From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:42:27 EDT   Greetings. Yesterday, July 24, I played the gallery tracker organ after a =   four or five-week refurbishment, carried out by the organbuilder himself, Gerhard Hradetzky.   A couple tidbits of information: Our organ (United Methodist Church of = Red Bank, New Jersey) was Gerhard's FIRST instrument after he split with his = father in the 1970s to form his own organbuilding firm.   At 43 ranks, it is also one of the two largest instruments of his in the = US (there are 12 Hradetzkys scattered about our country). The largest is in Riverside, Connecticut.   Even with summer tuning issues (as yet we have no air conditioning), the organ sounded glorious yesterday.   July 24, 2005, 10th Sunday after Pentecost   Prelude: Improvisation on "In Dir Ist Freude". Offertory: Meditation on the Sermon (basically an improv using "My Faith Looks Up to Thee" and "When We All Get to Heaven"). Postlude: Improvised Fugue on "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name" (sorry, the hymntune name escapes me).   Hymns: "Children of the Heavenly Father". "In Thee is Gladness" (In Dir Ist Freude). "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name".   Back in the saddle again (aka the organ bench), Neil