PipeChat Digest #5383 - Wednesday, June 1, 2005
 
Re: learning only one page
  by "Randy Terry" <randy_terry@hotmail.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #5382 - 06/01/05
  by "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
Re: learning only one page...
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Re: learning only one page
  by "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Lauda Anima
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Lauda Anima
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Music for Download
  by "Steve Barker" <email@stevebarker.seriouslyinternet.com>
Re: Lauda Anima
  by "Travis L. Evans" <tlevans95@charter.net>
Re: 16' manual stops/pedal stops
  by "Beau Surratt" <surrattorg@gmail.com>
dead organ part 3
  by "GB" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Re: 16' stops on Mollers
  by "Randy Terry" <randy_terry@hotmail.com>
Re: learning only one page
  by <Justinhartz@aol.com>
Re: Franck's PF&V
  by "M. W. Belcher" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
RE: 16' manual stops/pedal stops
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: dead organ part 3,000,678
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Learning music in reverse order
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Dulcianas at 16,8,4
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
16' manual stops
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: learning only one page From: "Randy Terry" <randy_terry@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 02:16:01 -0700   I agree. My best training came from the person I had the least time with (Janette Fishell.) For a year, I was halted from spending a lot of time learning the larger works (Preludes & Fugues, etc.) Instead, Dr. Fishell would identify a technical issue, and then assign a shorter work with this =   issue within it. I spent a lot of time with the Orgelbuchlien, Vierne 24 Pieces, French Classic Suites, and the like.   The result was that I worked rather quickly through the bulk of a work, = the technical issue was quickly addressed and pointed out, and I had the satisfaction of working up a lot of literature. After many insuing years, = I still recall quite vividly many of the techniques and the conversations about them.   I think this was necessary for me, personally, before I could ever have = the self-disipline to take one of the larger works and concentrate on a single =   page for a whole week - for me, it was a real challenge NOT to simply plow =   through.   I also had a teacher who spent a lot of time mostly informing me (during = the lesson) of missed accidentals and the like. And I spent alot of time thinking to myself "like I didn't know I missed the note!" I always = wished for more teaching meat from this particular professor. However - it was this prof who had the ability to fuss at me and push me in such a way that = I finally settled down and completed the required junior and senior = recitals.   There are so many appropriate ways of teaching, and I will never claim to = be able to effectively use any of them. I feel so inadequate as a teacher! But then, I don't attempt to teach!   Randy Terry   > From: Justinhartz@aol.com > > There is no one way to learn a piece written for the organ. Each >composition presents its own > challenges. A good teacher will show you =   >how to PRACTICE different passages of music. A bad > teacher will just >correct the wrong notes (if, indeed, he or she can).   _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! =   http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5382 - 06/01/05 From: "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:20:18 +0300   "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote "The NZ builder George Croft used to build superb smallish-scale open wood Violones in the first half of the 20thC that were quite outstanding."   A British builder who fell into this category was Frederik Rothwell and = Son of Harrow - sometimes naming the stop "Violone 16", at others "Open = Diapason 16". Some measure of the quality of his work may be assessed by the fact that 5 of the less than 100 organs listed on the NPOR have a Historic = Organs Certificate. Combining depth with clarity, it is an infinitely more useful =   stop than the more prevalent "Big Boom" Open Wood.   John Foss http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/      
(back) Subject: Re: learning only one page... From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:30:17 -0500   Yes - by all means - when you start out learning slowly - whether one page or two pages at a time or whatever - DO use the final articulation and the final fingering - and for that matter, if it is a work that requires use of expression pedals and pistons, include that from the beginning also. There isn't much point in drilling things slowly over time if you are just going to throw a bunch of wrenches into the mix later. The whole point of slow repetitious practice is that it "programs" your eye-hand-coordination-motor- patterning-memory. If you write the lines of code wrong, your program will crash when you press "enter" - so to speak.   In terms of breaking a piece into parts - I have always done this with lengthy pieces - and with my students I always have them learn them in parts. With the children, I will break up any piece longer than 2 pages. I give them a point that is 1-2 pages worth and a cadence point to work toward and we add more each week until the piece is learned. I do the same thing with adult students, except that I allow the more advanced ones to determine how big a chunk they learn each week themselves.   When I learn a new work myself - sometimes I do a page or two pages or a section at a time -depending on the nature of the piece. OR - sometimes I do the whole piece, but break it up RH&LH; RH&P; LH&P before I put it all together. it just depends on what kind of work it is. But again, the critical part I find is that all the articulation and other particulars are there from the beginning, or I feel I have wasted my time later, because once those things are added, part or all are quite likely to just have to be slowed back down all over again. Pick a system, but learn the whole work, not just the notes, in one clean sweep.   Margo     On May 31, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Randy Terry wrote:   > Actually, the way I worked the idea, was to try and learn > everything on the said page, section, whatever, the final/correct > way first. The whole purpose of the excercise is to cut out having > to "go back" and put in articulation, or unlearn things not desired. > > Of course, it is difficult to actually put in articulations when > going very slow, but if you have them worked out and can > internalize them from the start, you gain security in all areas. > > Do I follow this "1 page at a time" rule faithfully - no, but > whenever I decide to *really* learn a masterwork, this technique is > the first thing I pull out of my "bag of tricks!" > > Randy Terry > > >    
(back) Subject: Re: learning only one page From: "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:04:08 -0400   On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 03:09:10AM -0400, Justinhartz@aol.com wrote: > There is no one way to learn a piece written for the organ. > Each composition presents its own challenges. > A good teacher will show you how to PRACTICE different passages of = music. > A bad teacher will just correct the wrong notes (if, indeed, he or = she > can). >   One trick I've done with my students is to have them start memorization back to front.   Lots of time students *coughs* and ME *COUGHS* learn the top 4 or 8 really well, but not so much the top.   Doing things differently changes our muscle memory, brain memory, and every other thing. Variety is good for all of these things.   Similarly, when my daughter started karate, I had her practice her counting from ju down to ichi and do math simple math orally in Japanese.   *conducts* And an Ichi . . Ni . . . Ich ni san chi . .    
(back) Subject: Re: Lauda Anima From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:09:49 -0500   Well to be picky about what Cole wrote:   > There is a lovely arrangement [of Goss' Lauda anima] for four stanzas > in the Organist's Edition of the Hymnal. The arrangement doesn't seem > to be copyrighted.   the four verses in the Episcopal Hymnal 1982, are not "an arrangement", but rather Goss' original accompaniment, except that the four-part setting printed as the accompaniment for stanza 2 in the Organist's edition (and the only version printed in the per version of the 1982) was also used by Goss as the accompaniment for the fourth stanza of the hymn, which as far as I can tell, has never appeared in an Anglican hymnal (what every Anglican hymnal I've ever seen prints as the fourth version, is actually the fifth of the original poetry):   "Frail as summer's flower we flourish, Blows the wind, and it is gone, But, while mortals rise and perish, God endures unchanging on."   Regarding   > the British for some reason have expunged the Latin "Alleluia" for > "Praise him, praise him!" IMHO, "How pedestrian!"   I'm not sure that "expunged" is the correct word here, as I suspect that "Praise Him" may well have been the original text, with "alleluia" being a later substitution.   ns      
(back) Subject: Re: Lauda Anima From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:12:21 -0500   Steve Barker wrote:   >I stand corrected! I've never seen or sung it from a UK hymnal. > > It's in the second and third editions of The Church Hymnary, published by OUP for the Church of Scotland.   ns  
(back) Subject: Music for Download From: "Steve Barker" <email@stevebarker.seriouslyinternet.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:14:03 +0100   Dear list,   I know that this is strictly an organ list, but I have just put some new choral compositions online available for free download. Most = significantly is my "Canterbury Service", a setting for the Eucharist for unison voices and organ (with descants). It was written last year for the RSCM = Canterbury Area Choir Festival and was well received. There is absolutely no cost to download and use this music - all I ask is that you let me know if you use it in worship. If you really like it, you can always post a review on the website!   http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/show_score.pl?scoreid=3D69392   There is also an MP3 file recorded live in Canterbury Cathedral last year (the quality isn't fantastic, but it captures the mood of the event!)   Steve Canterbury UK    
(back) Subject: Re: Lauda Anima From: "Travis L. Evans" <tlevans95@charter.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:30:51 -0500   Hymnal Supplement '98 from the LCMS has all four original accompaniments Goss wrote. We sing this hymn a few times a year, though not terribly often.   Travis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: Re: Lauda Anima     > Well to be picky about what Cole wrote: > > > There is a lovely arrangement [of Goss' Lauda anima] for four stanzas > > in the Organist's Edition of the Hymnal. The arrangement doesn't seem > > to be copyrighted. > > the four verses in the Episcopal Hymnal 1982, are not "an arrangement", > but rather Goss' original accompaniment, except that the four-part > setting printed as the accompaniment for stanza 2 in the Organist's > edition (and the only version printed in the per version of the 1982) > was also used by Goss as the accompaniment for the fourth stanza of the > hymn, which as far as I can tell, has never appeared in an Anglican > hymnal (what every Anglican hymnal I've ever seen prints as the fourth > version, is actually the fifth of the original poetry): > > "Frail as summer's flower we flourish, > Blows the wind, and it is gone, > But, while mortals rise and perish, > God endures unchanging on." > > Regarding > > > the British for some reason have expunged the Latin "Alleluia" for > > "Praise him, praise him!" IMHO, "How pedestrian!" > > I'm not sure that "expunged" is the correct word here, as I suspect that > "Praise Him" may well have been the original text, with "alleluia" being > a later substitution. > > ns > > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: Re: 16' manual stops/pedal stops From: "Beau Surratt" <surrattorg@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:17:28 -0500   Hi! The 1960 Moeller which I've mentioned several times has a gemshorn and companion celeste on the choir which is duplicated in the pedal at 16' and 8'. It is these two stops that I have to use in the pedal for soft pieces because the only other 16' flues in the pedal are a violone which is too big for the softer stuff and the 16' quintadena from the great which is just plain unpleasant and really doesn't have any useful function, at least in the pedal. Unfortunately even when you combine all the pedal flues in this organ (violone, gemshorn, and quinatdena) you can't get enough 16' tone for mf-fff pieces. Oh, what I woudn't do for a 16' bourdon and a 16' principal!!! We could keep the others, which would be great, if we could only add these two. Interestingly, the quintadena on the great is the only 16' manual flue in this organ.   The 1923 E.M. Skinner I used to play at the United Church of Hyde Park in Chicago had a 16' violone in the pedal as well. This was in addition to a bourdon and diapason as well as the 16' and 8' flutes from the swell. This stop was actually quite useful as it had a quite incisive tone. I remember playing a wedding there for which I used the "Air" from Bach's D major suite (the g-string) and I don't beleive I've ever heard that piece with a pedal line quite as lovely as it turned out on that instrument. As far as manual 16' s on these organ go, the pedal 16' bourdon was playable on the great and there was a lighter 16' flute in the swell which, as I've mentioned, was also playable in the pedal.   Beau  
(back) Subject: dead organ part 3 From: "GB" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:09:03 -0500   HI list, The rectifer was faulty and with a new one installed, all is well. Thanks for all of your imput. Gary    
(back) Subject: Re: 16' stops on Mollers From: "Randy Terry" <randy_terry@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:28:04 -0700   That's interesting. I wonder if that is not the design of some "expert."   I've always been fond of Mollers from the mid-50's thru the mid-60's. = I've played many modest instruments from that period that I thought were excellent church organs. Many of those instruments only had a single mixture in the swell, and worked great. Most of them have fairly beefy pedals.   Out here in the San Francisco area the Moller rep. from that time drew woefully inartistic stoplists, but he always had big pedal 16's. For example this from the First Congregational Church in Redwood City, CA - = The rep's name, Sess Poole. Can you guess what local organ tech's fondly nickname his instruments?? <grin>   Who builds a 3/22 any more? The great is OK, but the other divisions, = while having some lovely individual stops (swell Principal and Strings particularly so,) can't hold a candle to the great - the choir is much = more delicate and soft than the stoplist might lead one to think. Pretty, yes = - useful, no.   However, please note that they made sure the organ could get loud - the = high pressure great Trumpet and big pedal Contra Bass make quite a noise when called on!   GREAT:   8' Diapason 8' Bourdon 4' Octave 2-2/3' Quint 2' Fifteenth III Fourniture 8' Trompette Harmonique (LOUD)   SWELL:   8' Geigen Principal 8' Gedeckt 8' Viola da Gamba 8' Viola Celeste 4' Principal (ext) 4' Harmonic Flute 8' Trompette   CHOIR:   8' Gemshorn 8' Dolce 4' Rohrflote 2' Nachthorn 1-1/3 Kline Quint 8' Krummhorn   PEDAL:   16' Contra Bass (Huge Scale bearded open wood) 16' Bourdon (great) 16' Gemshorn (choir) 8' Octave 8' Flute (great) 8' Gemshorn (choir) 4' Fifteenth (ext)   Randy     >From: Beau Surratt <surrattorg@gmail.com>   >The 1960 Moeller which I've mentioned several times has a gemshorn >and companion celeste on the choir which is duplicated in the pedal at >16' and 8'. It is these two stops that I have to use in the pedal for >soft pieces because the only other 16' flues in the pedal are a >violone which is too big for the softer stuff and the 16' quintadena >from the great which is just plain unpleasant and really doesn't have >any useful function, at least in the pedal. Unfortunately even when >you combine all the pedal flues in this organ (violone, gemshorn, and >quinatdena) you can't get enough 16' tone for mf-fff pieces. Oh, what >I woudn't do for a 16' bourdon and a 16' principal!!!   _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! =   http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/    
(back) Subject: Re: learning only one page From: <Justinhartz@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:28:24 EDT   In a message dated 6/1/2005 5:01:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, pipechat@pipechat.org writes:   Learning to practice is the key. But I haven't run into a teacher that does this yet (other than me, and I'm not a real teacher. I sometimes help adult pianists make the transition to get a good basic hymn-playing technique). The lesson is always a critiqued performance. Andy This confirms my opinion that organ teachers who can really "teach" are a rare breed. Andy, don't sell yourself short. We need more teachers who can and are willing to do what you do. My best students started out as pianists. I believe having a solid piano technique is necessary before starting organ lessons. Trying to teach = someone pedal technique, manual and pedal coordination, registration, style, etc. = to a student who hasn'd developed his or her chops only results in a bad = organist. With all the mediocre organists out there, is it any wonder the organ and organist often get a bad rap?   Cheers, Justin Hartz  
(back) Subject: Re: Franck's PF&V From: "M. W. Belcher" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:40:31 -0700 (PDT)     --- Colin Mitchell <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Hello, > > It would sound beautiful! Go for it! > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > --- BlueeyedBear@aol.com wrote: > > > has anyone ever performed franck's prelude, fugue, > & > > variation with organ and > > oboe? I was wondering how the work would sound > > with an actual oboe. > Mmmmm... How would it sound with an English Horn?   Best wishes to all...     Morton Belcher fellow list member...         __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail  
(back) Subject: RE: 16' manual stops/pedal stops From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:06:19 +1200     At All Saints' Anglican, Dunedin, there is a Bevington tracker 2m from the 1870s approx. (too lazy to look it up) with about 16 stops, complete to reeds and good Mixture. For its first century it had but one Pedal stop - = a 16ft Open Diapason in wood. When restored by SIOC (South Island Organ Co.) = a 16ft Bourdon was added. This latter was most welcome, but I wish it had 8 = & 4 extensions as well. All the same, it was astonishing how the original = open wood "sat well" under how many registrations, though of course couplers SwPed or GtPed were almost always needed.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: dead organ part 3,000,678 From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:12:22 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Thank heavens for that!   :)   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- GB <gblack@ocslink.com> wrote:   > HI list, The rectifer was faulty and with a new > one installed, all is > well. Thanks for all of your imput. Gary       __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Learning music in reverse order From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:21:42 -0500   >I have found it very useful to learn the last page of a piece first. That=20 >way, if I do mess up in performance, it will probably be early in the piece=20 >(which I have known and practiced less), and the conclusion will be the >part=20 >I am most sure of. A mistake here or there is forgiven, and often >forgotten,=20 >if the conclusion is solid and convincing! This works on small pieces too,=20 >for those of us who have less technique and "just get by" some Sunday=20 >mornings. There is also the discipline of starting with the last section of=20 >a piece which makes it easier not to get carried away and play it all the=20 >way through before you are ready. If I start at the beginning and things >are=20 >going well, I can fail to slow down or stop when I get to the new part. > Kip in MO   This was advocated early on to me, also. Depending on the piece, it was suggested that you take sections or measures in reverse order, starting with the last. Then, when you play from whichever measure you're perfecting to the end, you're on well-trodden territory, and are also serving to reinforce what you've previously learned.   I should discipline myself to do this more often.   Daniel Hancock=20 Springfield, Missouri  
(back) Subject: Dulcianas at 16,8,4 From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:26:04 -0500   >A 16ft Dulciana is rare but is singularly useful, being like an Echo >Bourdon >but with the clarity and nobility of a very small Violone, wonderful on its >own, coupled to something, or adding a little definition and depth to a >stopt 16ft. There is a Hill Norman & Beard one here in Hawera Presbyterian >from about 70 years ago, and a much less effective one in St Paul's >Methodist in Palmerston North, plus a tiny handful of others.=20   A friend of mine who is building an organ is including an echo division, which features various string and flute stops that are enclosed, and also Dulcianas at 16, 8, 4, that are unenclosed. I cannot wait to hear it!   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri  
(back) Subject: 16' manual stops From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:35:41 -0500   >I'm curious, with the mention of a 16' Dulciana in one of the celeste=20 >discussions, it made me curious about what kind of manual stops everyone=20 >desires.   In the home organ installation I'm planning, I am thinking about including three flues at 16', a Bourdon, Stopped Diapason (ext. from Swell, rather soft), and Dulciana.   It is my plan that the Bourdon, being the heaviest, is only available in the pedal, but the other two are available on the manuals. The Dulciana is in the Choir, and the Stopped Diapason in the Swell. Both of them are playable from the Great--and I'm hoping that the two of them combined would make an acceptable synthetic "Double Diapason" for the Great.   I generally find that most organs have too few manual 16's. Has anyone read the article on accompanying hymn singing in "The American Organist?" (in one of the last two issues, I think). The author of the article suggested that one of the reasons that men don't sing as much as women in church congregations is that we only generally use 8' stops and higher to accompany hymns. By adding a 16', he contends, we double the melody in the octave which they sing, and encourage their participation, too.   I generally have shied away from using the manual 16's for hymns, but this has caused me to rethink this. It's not as muddy as I would have supposed, depending on how you use them.   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri