PipeChat Digest #5390 - Saturday, June 4, 2005 Composer's Intentions by "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: PipeChat Digest #5388 - 06/02/05 by "David Baker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Calvary, Saint George's, Juilliard New York City by <TubaMagna@aol.com> FREE 8' Diapason in New York City by <TubaMagna@aol.com> RE: Calvary, Saint George's, Juilliard New York City by "Randy Terry" <email@example.com> Re: flower pots by "Randy Terry" <firstname.lastname@example.org> KARL MOYER'S EMAIL ADDRESS NEEDED (x post) by <ScottFop@aol.com> cabanilles by "Domitila Ballesteros" <email@example.com> RE: Composer's Intentions by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Fwd: Diapason free sample by "David Scribner" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Lemare Andantino in D-flat by <RMaryman@aol.com> RE: Composer's Intentions by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Re: Fwd: Diapason free sample by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Apologies by "Sand Lawn" <email@example.com> Re: Bell Casting Tour by "Harry Grove" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Composer's Intentions From: "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:25:20 -0500 Good Morning, Ross, et al: You wrote, among other things: * * * > Whatever the current philosophy may be concerning authenticity > and > condemning the eclectic organ design, I still believe an > instrument can be > designed that will play a great amount of the literature with > great musical > aplomb and success, even if it's not exactly what was intended > by a composer > long gone and thinking of only one kind of instrument. My question regards "the intent of the composer." I am sure there are some compositions intended to be played on an organ exactly as it was conceived on one particular organ. However, even as there have always been differences between instruments, players, and performance requirements when it became time to render the composition, did the composer "intend" that it should foreverafter sound as it was on the instrument on which it was played while composing it? For instance, Horatio Parker wrote a fine concerto for organ and orchestra. Some friends of mine performed it and I made the original sound recording of this piece at a festival in Lubbock, Texas, several years ago. It was a thrilling performance. We did the work on the instruments most available to us in the space that was available to us. The the limit of those two conditions, and it turned out to be a fine rendering of the concerto. I have the evidence of it in a fine audio recording of it. Was it as Horatio Parker intended? Would it be pleasing to Horatio Parker if he could hear it as rendered on one of my recordings today? I believe you could debate this issue from now on, and might never absolutely resolve all questions raised in the discussions. How many other composers would surely fall into similar debate? I think we may be placing way too much emphasis on "the intent" of the composer. However, I do not wish to push performance limitations as the way we accept any or all performances. I do not think we should be satisfied with poor performances, endure "wrong" notes or stretches of dynamics/tempi. There are too many examples of variance in performance by "artists" that we can now examine by good recordings. These provide excellent examples for us to criticize, for good or bad, and we still accept these variances with decency, and say something like, "Wow! That was different." <grins> Music that impressed me on first hearing tend to fall into my matrix of "good music" presentations. Given the chance to hear what I think of "good" musical renderings may be so different when I hear them the second time that I might say, "Not good!" AND, I think most people will grade the music based on hearing repeated performances. How many ways have you heard "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring?" Then we must ask, what were the organ designs that were considered by the performers to justify the variations? Might it be true that the performance was NOT based on the organ design at all? I bet it can still be classified as "good music" most of the time. F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #5388 - 06/02/05 From: "David Baker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:40:10 -0400 I borrow the term from descriptions I have heard of Holtkamps, where the chests are more or less stuck in out in the open and the pipes look like a flower garden, sticking up all over the place. It comes from having no case. For that matter, I suppose the organ in the church could be a flower pot, too, come to think of it. David Baker On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:36 PM, PipeChat wrote: > > What is a Casavant "flower pot"? > > Steve Best in Utica, NY > >
(back) Subject: Calvary, Saint George's, Juilliard New York City From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:10:52 EDT Calvary Episcopal Church's 1936 Aeolian-Skinner, Opus 945, is = completely unrecognizable as an Aeolian-Skinner at this stage. It has been hacked = over by so many people that the concept and sound have long been lost. Harrison's 1936 instrument replaced Ernest Skinner's Opus 151 of 1907, = which retained 18 ranks from (Frank, not Hilborne) Roosevelt's = three-manual Opus 374 of 1884. In recent decades, the organ was essentially butchered, mostly by what = one list member described as "one of New York's most disreputable organ maintainers best known for his muscles and tight t-shirts with the pack of = cigarettes rolled into the sleeve." That organ maintainer had a longstanding = friendship with the organist there, and there was no internal check against what was = going on. He is rumored to still be in business. For all we know he reads this = list and has a fine attorney. I have heard for the past fifteen years that the organ was being = rebuilt, but as of this date, there has been no dedication. The rumors of a Cavaille-Coll Oboe in the organ persist. There MAY be rebuilt Cavaille-Coll resonators and blocks, but surely it has been = retongued and revoiced several times, and the resonator lengths changed. Since Cavaille-Coll didn't voice his reeds himself, and his best reed voicer was = Teutonic, Americans might reconsider the origins of the "French sound." There is a heap of material in the back gallery, raided from the magnificent 1931 four-manual Casavant Opus 1440 stuffed into the ceiling = of Borden Auditorium at the old Juilliard Building, now the Manhattan School of = Music. Among the stops were the two 32' pedal voices and the 8' Solo Tuba. The = organ was junked by the school decades ago, looted of pipes by several organ-type people, and the console dumped on the street. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/ ..
(back) Subject: FREE 8' Diapason in New York City From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:17:59 EDT Once again, the organ bargains are staggering: 8' Open Diapason, zinc and Hoyt's metal. Anti-tank device scale. Free for the taking. We cannot ship these, as we have run out of the extra-large padded = envelopes, and the crew gets stomach aches if they lick that many stamps. Pick up in Manhattan. This is a $30,000.00 value, according to rumor, so why not take advantage = of it? Would make a lovely Pedal stop for a big organ, or a thoughtful Bar Mitzvah present for a loved one. Sebastian M. Gluck (917) 749-0827, or email ..
(back) Subject: RE: Calvary, Saint George's, Juilliard New York City From: "Randy Terry" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:21:40 -0700 What a great (not!) way to start one's morning - that is a sad story all around. Randy _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar =96 get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
(back) Subject: Re: flower pots From: "Randy Terry" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:40:12 -0700 Then there are some lovely flower pots in the organ world - what a nice compliment! -Randy >From: David Baker <email@example.com> > >I borrow the term from descriptions I have heard of Holtkamps, where the = >chests are more or less stuck in out in the open and the pipes look like = a >flower garden, sticking up all over the place. It comes from having no >case. For that matter, I suppose the organ in the church could be a >flower pot, too, come to think of it. David Baker > >On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:36 PM, PipeChat wrote: > >>What is a Casavant "flower pot"? _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee=AE Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3D3963
(back) Subject: KARL MOYER'S EMAIL ADDRESS NEEDED (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:20:12 EDT I am in need of Karl Moyer's email address. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated, thanks! -Scott Scott F.Foppiano Organist and Director of Parish Music - Holy Rosary Catholic Church, Memphis, TN In te Domine speravi, non confundar in aeternum.
(back) Subject: cabanilles From: "Domitila Ballesteros" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:44:13 -0300 Anybody knows the publisher (and vol.) where I can find the Cabanilles' Tiento 7o. Tono por A la mi re? I thank you very much. Domitila
(back) Subject: RE: Composer's Intentions From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:17:12 +1200 >I am sure there are some compositions intended to be played on an organ exactly as it was conceived on one particular organ. However, even as there have always been differences between instruments, players, and performance requirements when it became time to render the composition, did the composer "intend" that it should foreverafter sound as it was on the instrument on which it was played while composing it? Probably not, at a guess. I think, though don't know for sure, that most composers write with their ideal sound in their heads, rather than memory = of a specific instrument. Against that, perhaps, the classic French composers probably had more of a specific sound, a sort-of Clicquot thing, than did the rest of Europe. I think your point is a good one. None of us, except the most puritannical purist, would say that you should not play Beethoven on a Steinway, even = if that piano is very very different from Beethoven's. Similarly with Chopin, = I guess. And if you don 't have a harpsichord, as I don't, I'll play Bach on my little 1933 cottage piano and love it. >How many ways have you heard "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring?" Then we must ask, what were the organ designs that were considered by the performers to justify the variations? Might it be true that the performance was NOT based on the organ design at all. Oh, I'm sure this is true. Every organ performance of "Jesu', Joy" is = wrong in that the piece was not written for the organ anyway. If we condemn that sort of thing, then we must also condemn Bach for his organ arrangements = of other people's concertos, for his own transcriptions of his own Schubler chorales, too. Probably one of the most wonderful recordings I have is a very old American-made mono disc from the 1950s, of a fellow double-tracking and = thus playing his own duet guitar transcriptions of Chopin. Quite unbelievably musical and an absolute delight to listen to. So, I think the thing is help people to learn to listen, and to create music, rather than just follow someone's interpretation of the "rules". Remember, it was Mozart who commented that books on theories of music are written by people who can't compose. Too, Debussy made the remark that = there must be no attempt to analyse his music harmonically or theoretically, as = he followed no one and just wrote down the sounds that seemed pleasant to himself. 2c worth, Ross
(back) Subject: Fwd: Diapason free sample From: "David Scribner" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:45:45 -0500 =46REE COPY OF THE DIAPASON Request a free sample copy of the June 2005 issue of The Diapason. Cover: Cornel Zimmer Organ Builders, Denver, North Carolina; Aldersgate United Methodist Church, Wilmington, Delaware. =46eatures: =46or Bach by Joel H. Kuznik Johann Sebastian Bach: Past, Present, Future; SEHKS and MHKS meet in DeLand, Florida, by Larry Palmer; Organist and Organbuilder, Jerome Meachen and Charles McManis: A Meeting of the Minds,=BE by R. E. Coleberd; Marilyn Mason 80th Birthday Tributes,=BE by Gordon Atkinson, William Bolcom, Phillip Burgess, James Hammann, Michele Johns, James Kibbie, Gale Kramer, Robert Speed, Mary Ida Yost. News, appointments, reviews, recital programs, new organs, calendar, classified ads. Send your request to editor Jerome Butera firstname.lastname@example.org (ph 847/391-1045), www.TheDiapason.com <http://www.thediapason.com/>
(back) Subject: Re: Lemare Andantino in D-flat From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 22:53:06 EDT In a message dated 6/2/2005 9:25:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, email@example.com writes: Incidentally, does anyone on list play Lemare now? yes, both original compositions and transcriptions. Rick in VA
(back) Subject: RE: Composer's Intentions From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Hello, Whilst I would acknowledge that a histological approach to organ playing and registration is very commendable (especialy with Baroque French music), the fact is, "the cult of the composer" as master of all things, was really a development of the 19th century, and the emergence of the "professional" virtuoso performer and that of a "conductor" who could actually follow EXACTLY what the composer intended, to the letter. I don't recall that Liszt, or Bach, or Reubke, or Buxtehude or even Mendelssohn, ever wrote much down on the manuscripts concerning detailed registration or the exact type of instrument for which the music was written. Skip to the Cavaille-Coll era, and the manuscripts are full of registrational directions, and this has continued to the present day. I believe there is an appropriate rule of thumb.....if it works on a particular instrument, and sounds well, then play it! If that means playing a Trumpet Tune on a Cornet, then so be it! Regards, Colin Mitchell UK __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Fwd: Diapason free sample From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Hello, It just shows the age we are living in. I thought to myself, "I wonder if I could download the sample as a ring-tone for the mobile, and replace the "Crazy Frog" tune?" :) Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- David Scribner <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > FREE COPY OF THE DIAPASON > > Request a free sample copy of the June 2005 issue of > The Diapason. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Apologies From: "Sand Lawn" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:48:48 -0500 Sorry, to have sent a private message to Ross with attachments...... = it's too late in the evening for me to send messages.... Sand
(back) Subject: Re: Bell Casting Tour From: "Harry Grove" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:50:19 +0100 I could always pop across the Channel to join you ....... now there's a scary thought! What intrigues me is how you intend to ring a bell weighing 4.91 tons ? (You did say it was part of a peal ?) I know that I have the odd bead of perspiration moving the Tenor in our village tower ... for the 2-plus hours it takes to ring a full peal ... = and that weighs a (mere) 18 cwt. ( that's 2,016 lbs ). Harry Grove [a.k.a. a musicman who also rings his 'ding-a-ling-a-ling' ... to quote = that famous American musician, Mr. C. Berry] ___________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: <RMB10@aol.com> To: <email@example.com> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 4:34 AM Subject: Bell Casting Tour > As part of our new sanctuary, we have purchased a peal of 5 bells for = our > steeple, > [snip] > Because the bourdon bell is one of the heaviest bells that has been cast = > in > recent years (over 11,000 pounds), our bell representatives, VanBergen > Bellfoundries of Charleston, SC, have organized a tour to France for the = > casting of > the bells at the Paccard Fonderie des Cloches in Annecy, France. [snip]