PipeChat Digest #5412 - Friday, June 17, 2005
 
screens and PowerPoint
  by "Dennis Steckley" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: Pre-recorded Music
  by "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net>
Re: Pre-recorded Music
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Pre-recorded Music
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
Re: Pre-recorded Music
  by "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net>
Re: Policy
  by <Justinhartz@aol.com>
Re: Screens
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com>
 

(back) Subject: screens and PowerPoint From: "Dennis Steckley" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:41:34 -0500   Screens and PowerPoint are tools-no more and no less; they can be an asset or a disadvantage; depends upon the audience and how you use them. PowerPoint is part of some Microsoft Office packages-last I knew it was NOT part of the "Small Business" version, but was part of the "Professional" version. Dennis Steckley For I am possessed of a cat, surpassing in beauty, from whom I take occasion to bless Almighty God.  
(back) Subject: Re: Pre-recorded Music From: "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:54:12 -0500   "However, if the recording is used in an ensemble (to accompany or combine with live music) I would not object to it in principle. The reason is simply that electronic sounds have had a place in art music for over half a century now; so you certainly can't categorically dismiss it on artistic grounds."   But my point was not that "electronic sounds" were to be forbidden in worship, but that -recorded- music was not suitable. And my reasons were = not "artistic", much as I want to have music in my worship to be tasteful and correct! My thinking was theological: that worship is what happens when Christian/saved/converted people come together. bringing all our gifts and =   needs and love. The emphasis is on people doing our best for God, and no recording belongs in that encounter. The rediculous extreme that I think makes my point is a lovely sanctuary, with fine recorded music playing on = an expensive PA system, and the offering plates full of big donations that represent our best efforts, but no people present. This is in no way Christian worship. It may be tasteful and well done and beautiful, but it = is not the broken and redeemed hearts of God's people gathered in His name to =   remember miracles past and to expect new miracles. Maybe my expectations = are unrealistically high, and I should be satisfied to put on a "good show" = that pleases most of the people. Then they can have the MIDI play the organ, = and I can go fishing!   Kip Smith in = Missouri (and in Lala Land?)      
(back) Subject: Re: Pre-recorded Music From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:28:11 -0500   Paul Smith wrote:   > My thinking was theological: that worship is what happens when > Christian/saved/converted people come together. bringing all our gifts > and needs and love. The emphasis is on people doing our best for God, > and no recording belongs in that encounter. The rediculous extreme > that I think makes my point is a lovely sanctuary, with fine recorded > music playing on an expensive PA system, and the offering plates full > of big donations that represent our best efforts, but no people > present. This is in no way Christian worship.   Well let's back off your example just a bit: lets postulate that in your example the "Deejay" is present, and then let's propose the exact parallel with an organist playing the organ. If one is not worship, how is it that the other is? And what happens in an event when none of the people of God present considers his or her musical skills and training adequate for offering to God in the presence of others, and they together choose to augment their offering with music pre recorded by a group not present?   And how does your position relate to hospital services? It is a common practice in certain hospitals related to religious institutions, to broadcast a worship service in order that those who are unable to physically attend may participate in making their offering. How does that relate to your position?   As far as the statement about worship happening when Christians come together, this seems arrogant and presumptive, as in order to make that statement a mere human is being so bold as to attempt to say what is in the mind of God. While I do not dispute that Christian people come together in worship, our brothers and sisters of the First Covenant, also come together in from worship. And, since as the Psalmist says, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it", this includes those who might not seem to be believers, but who, still are moved to give thanks for the offerings they have received, and I submit that their offerings are also motivated by worship.   For what it's worth, I agree with your preferences; I prefer live music in the making of my own offering, and I'll go a long way to hear an organ, and would hardly cross town for a "contemporary" service. But the fact that it's not right for me does not mean that I am in any way qualified to impose my scruples on anyone else.   ns  
(back) Subject: Re: Pre-recorded Music From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:29:21 -0400   I agree with what Kip says about the theology of worship which precludes recorded music. From a mere practical standpoint, has anyone had experience with putting solo performers in a certain order, like a recital program, or a high school vocal concert? In such a case, you'd worry very much about comparisons, putting a less confident singer earlier in the program and certainly not right after the most accomplished singer. If you had the luxury of mixing up the voice ranges or colors to give variety and interest, you'd do that, too, because you'd want your participants to feel encouraged and validated, and to be shown at their best.   So, doesn't it bother anybody that when you play recorded music and then follow it up with your hometown choir, (or pianist, or whatever) you're inviting just such negative comparisons? Perhaps that's WHY people want the recorded music... it's fairly professional (style preferences notwithstanding) when compared with the live sound of the average church choir. It's consistent, it doesn't require any thought or motivation to succeed. Kip's concerns about the humanity of what goes on in worship become harder to reinforce after people are openly offered that comparison and allowed to choose the recorded version. "Gosh, that's real purty. I like it. " But that kind of thought pattern is not what worship is about.   I guess I'm a snob, I wouldn't take my high school a cappella group to sing in the community if the event involved them singing while people were eating. I figure if they want to hear the kids, they should LISTEN and not be chomping. Similarly, when we wallpaper every spare moment with background music (and, yes, I'm making the perhaps-hasty association that this background music is often recorded), aren't we really devaluing music in spite of ourselves?   It happens so easily and with so little thought that I find it hard to rationalize that the people choosing the tracks are moved by the Holy Spirit in their choices. It's simply a matter of their personal preference and convenience. Time and time again, I've walked into an auditorium as the ushers were about to open it, to hear loud popular music over the house sound system. I've said to the stage crew, "What are you doing?" They'd say "Just some background music while the people come in." I say "The people are paying to hear a two hour MUSICAL. There's a full orchestra, an overture, an entr'acte. Didn't your mom ever say 'Don't eat that now, you'll spoil your dinner?" Let's not kill their appetites for music by playing 40 minutes of music before the two hour musical, OK?"   "Sorry, we weren't thinking." I think that sums up a lot of what happens in worship.   Chuck Peery St. Louis        
(back) Subject: Re: Pre-recorded Music From: "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:43:29 -0500   I'm sorry to disagree, but I think some people have thrown the baby out = with the bath water. It is part of the historic Christian faith to believe that =   miracles are immanent "when two or three of you are gathered together". I would rather gather together with a church of Spirit-filled believers = where there are no instruments, or no music at all, than to trade that = miraculous for the highest of masses. But that obviously takes the discussion past = the range of this list, so I will cease and desist. Thanks you Kip = Smith   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Pre-recorded Music     > > Well let's back off your example just a bit: lets postulate that in = your > example the "Deejay" is present, and then let's propose the exact = parallel > with an organist playing the organ. If one is not worship, how is it = that > the other is? And what happens in an event when none of the people of = God > present considers his or her musical skills and training adequate for > offering to God in the presence of others, and they together choose to > augment their offering with music pre recorded by a group not present? > And how does your position relate to hospital services? It is a common > practice in certain hospitals related to religious institutions, to > broadcast a worship service in order that those who are unable to > physically attend may participate in making their offering. How does = that > relate to your position? > > As far as the statement about worship happening when Christians come > together, this seems arrogant and presumptive, as in order to make that > statement a mere human is being so bold as to attempt to say what is in > the mind of God. While I do not dispute that Christian people come > together in worship, our brothers and sisters of the First Covenant, = also > come together in from worship. And, since as the Psalmist says, "The > earth is the Lord's, and everything in it", this includes those who = might > not seem to be believers, but who, still are moved to give thanks for = the > offerings they have received, and I submit that their offerings are also =   > motivated by worship. > > For what it's worth, I agree with your preferences; I prefer live music = in > the making of my own offering, and I'll go a long way to hear an organ, > and would hardly cross town for a "contemporary" service. But the fact > that it's not right for me does not mean that I am in any way qualified = to > impose my scruples on anyone else. > > ns > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Policy From: <Justinhartz@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:43:54 EDT   Dear Tom Please read my post again. The pipe organ does not plug into the wall. The piano Damp Chaser does not produce sound. Justin  
(back) Subject: Re: Screens From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:50:57 -0700   "Worship Window" reminds me of the teacher's magic mirror on Romper Room. "I see Billy and Sally and Sue and Tommy and Joe and Molly..." That's what worship has become?   Thanks for proof that the slippery slope argument has merit!   On 6/16/05, Devon3000@aol.com <Devon3000@aol.com> wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > At the church I play, it's called the "worship window". We were told it > wouldn't be used in traditional services except at special occasions. No= w it's > used every week. Last Sunday, it had a repeating mpeg of a cross with wa= ving > cloths. You could tell when the sequence repeated, and it was very distr= acting > throughout the service, especially during the sermon. >=20 > Devon Hollingsworth, in DeKalb, Illinois   --=20 Jan Nijhuis nijhuis.jan@gmail.com