PipeChat Digest #5414 - Friday, June 17, 2005
 
Re: Garbage
  by "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net>
Re: My heavens . . . .
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
RE: Pre-recorded Music
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Foot-in-mouth [was: Garbage]
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com>
Johann Michael Bach
  by "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net>
Score Info Needed
  by "Kevin Cartwright" <kcartwright@pipe-organ.com>
Other church music topics
  by <cwalker@wellsfargo.com>
Re: July 3 music
  by <blueeyedbear@aol.com>
Re: Score Info Needed
  by "Don McClure" <McClure@cc.admin.unt.edu>
Theory/History Placement test resources
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
RE: Score Info Needed
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@comcast.net>
Re: Precorded Music
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Theory/History Placement test resources
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: July 3 music
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
OHS Convention July 12-18 - Hotel Deadline
  by "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org>
Re: Score Info Needed
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: Garbage
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Again Re: Garbage
  by "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Garbage From: "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:07:35 -0400   Well that's what I get for not going back through the posts to see the original post being referred to!   Someone emailed me and let me know it was computer garbage being referred = to and not the content of Seb's writing. Sigh of relief. But now having to remove my foot from my mouth!   Sorry!   ("There's no need to fear! UNDERDOG is hear!" LOL)   Thomas Dressler   http://www.thomasdressler.com    
(back) Subject: Re: My heavens . . . . From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:22:07 EDT   In a message dated 6/17/2005 7:21:50 A.M. Central Standard Time, gksjd85@direcway.com writes:   Hotlanta     Never heard of that town before (in that way), but love it, Glenda. Keep *them* coming! Peace to all. Dale in Mighty MO  
(back) Subject: RE: Pre-recorded Music From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:31:30 -0400   > WhoopTeDoo! I object to anyone prohibiting the movement of the The Holy Spirit in any form. If God moves me to play a recording in church (not that She has ever done so thus far) I am darn well gonna do it! I might personally object to said recording, but God did not promise me I would like everything he might ask me to do in the service of his people.   That argument above can, in fact logically must, be invoked to abolish all preset liturgies, all set lectionaries, all calendars. And I have seen it so invoked. "Let spontaneity reign!"   That's the ostensible theory. The actual practice, of course, is that we all have expectations about what will happen when we come together to worship. We have various roles. People come to church under at least an unspoken agreement that certain things will happen there and certain other things will not. Someone has to make plans. What the rejection of customs, traditions, schedules, rubrics etc. "because they interfere with inspiration" really does is to allow the local planners to accumulate absolute power over the proceedings. Inspiration my foot. It leaves them all the freer to impose their own pet preferences, prejudices, manipulations, or just to be lazy and get in a rut, in the name of acting as the spirit moves.   Obviously tastes vary. Some people are quite content to submit to such a manipulative environment. But liturgical people (in the broadest sense) are not.  
(back) Subject: Foot-in-mouth [was: Garbage] From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:02:12 -0700   I hear WD-40 works well in this situation... :-)   On 6/17/05, Thomas Dressler <rgtd@ptdprolog.net> wrote: >But now having to remove my foot from my mouth! >=20 > Thomas Dressler   --=20 Jan Nijhuis nijhuis.jan@gmail.com  
(back) Subject: Johann Michael Bach From: "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT)   Dear List, Johann Michael Bach (1648-1694) was of the generation that preceded J.S. = Bach. Johann Michael's motets are especially noteworthy, and are in a = style that is rather like that of Heinrich Schuetz. My own personal = favorite is "Ich weiss dass mein Erloeser lebt" (I know that my Redeemer = lives) that appears in a number of anthologies. J.L. Gerber lists 72 = organ chorales by J.M. Bach that he owned; until the importance of the = Neumeister Chorales was realized in 1985, all but five of these chorales = were considered lost. I don't say "discovered" in regard to the = Neumeister collection, because this collection was always known to = musicologists, but no significant research had been done on the music = contained in it until Christoph Wolff established the great importance of = this collection. Michael Schneider, who taught at Yale a couple of times = when Charles Krigbaum was on sabbatical, and I examined this collection in = the Yale Music Library when I studied with him for a semester in the spring of 1975. Schneider said at that time that the Neumeister = collection was really intriguing, but it would take a very learned = musicologist to study it in detail to determine if the attributions = contained in it were correct. That's exactly what Christoph Wolff did in = the Bach anniversary year, 1985. In addition to the Neumeister chorales that are attributed to J.S. Bach, = there are many other chorales by other composers. The 25 chorales = attributed to J.M. Bach are the largest number, after the works of Johann = Sebastian. In my opinion these are works of great beauty and considerable = inspiration. Whereas Johann Michael Bach had been mainly a footnote in = music history, it now appears that he was a very important figure in the = development of the organ chorale, and a type of chorale which is = associated with Pachelbel may actually have been devised by him. = Considering the profundity of his motets, it is quite likely that Johann = Michael Bach composed many other fine organ works that are now lost. I = don't get all the musicology journals, but perhaps they have contained = detailed lists of the works that came to light in Kiev recently. The = retreating Soviet army took with them many important cultural artifacts = from Germany, and that's how the collection of mss that had once belonged to CPE Bach ended up there. I understand that there are some large = previously unknown works by 17th. century members of the Bach family in = the collection in Kiev. I'm very anxious to know whether or not any free = works of Johann Michael might be among them. One piece of Johann Michael that listmembers probably know is the little = chorale on "In dulci jubilo" that was formerly attributed to J.S. Bach as = BWV 751, though it was for a long time considered spurious. It's the = little trio that begins with the long pedal point on G with the melody in = the soprano. It's a charming little piece that can now be definitely = attributed to Johann Michael; it appears under his authorship in the = Neumeister collection, by the way. Johann Michael Bach is important for another reason, too: he was the = father of Maria Barbara, J.S. Bach's first wife and the mother of Wilhelm = Friedemann and Carl Philipp Emmanuel. Since the Bach family were a close = knit group, and they had periodic family reunions where they got together = for fun and music making, it's quite likely that the boy Johann Sebastian = had met the man who would become his father-in-law, albeit posthumously. = I personally believe that Johann Michael's music was an important = influence on the young Sebastian, though there is no proof of that yet. = It's now clear that Johann Michael Bach was an important Central German = composer of the second half of the 17th. century. This subject has been discussed a number of times on another US based = list. If you're a member of that list, you should check the list archives = for more information about this topic. Dr. Paul Barte, professor of organ = and music history at Ohio University, did his Ph. D. dissertation on this = topic as I recall, and he has contributed a number of postings on the = subject to the other list, as have I. Stephen Roberts Western CT State University, Danbury, CT USA  
(back) Subject: Score Info Needed From: "Kevin Cartwright" <kcartwright@pipe-organ.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:56:19 -0400   Hello everyone of the lists! A friend recently played a CD for me and = has set me in search of two pieces of music arranged for organ:   1) Overture from "The Flying Dutchman" 2) The collected works of Franz Lizst (two volumes), including the = second volume with the 53 page one (I can't recall the name this late = into the work week.)'   If anyone could pull out their copies and send me the publisher = information so I can go to the local music store and squeeze their = turnips to order it...I would be most appreciative.   Thank you,   Kevin R. Cartwright Midtown, Atlanta, GA  
(back) Subject: Other church music topics From: <cwalker@wellsfargo.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:02:22 -0500   Hi all, Just a note which I hope will help. There seem to be many posts which are off the organ topic which some folks would prefer not to review. Yet, some folks have a need to discuss those items. There are other similar lists which specifically address those topics. TCMR manages a church music list which is intended for resource types of questions. And for those that like to philosophically banter about issues which we all know will never reach agreement, there is a spin off list called "church music discussion". To sign up simply go the www.tcmr.com and scroll down and you will find information on the left side.   Craig Walker          
(back) Subject: Re: July 3 music From: <blueeyedbear@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:23:23 -0400   i don't know what our hymns are for that sunday yet. however, my prelude = will be ned rorem's "there is a spirit that delights to do no evil" and my = postlude will be james hewitt's "washington's march" (written for piano, = but i'm doing it on organ). both are short, light, easy, and the = congregation appreciates that type of music in our un-air conditioned, = stone church. the anthem that day will be a tenor solo -- copland's = "zion's walls." in other words, not necessarily patriotic music, but all composers = represented are american. scot in spokane -----Original Message----- From: Steskinner@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Sent: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:07:26 EDT Subject: July 3 music     In a message dated 6/17/2005 8:05:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Keys4bach@aol.com writes: any one getting to do church music on the 3rd of July? mine wants ALL patriotic including God Bless America as the Benediction response....!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are. Several prayers to God thankful for and praying for our country = (My Country 'Tis of Thee, America the Beautiful), A brass and organ prelude on = a hymn observing the heritage of God's hand and thanking God for continued leading (God of Our Fathers) and a hymn of supplication for our people on = sea, land and in the air (Eternal Father, Strong to Save).     Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>  
(back) Subject: Re: Score Info Needed From: "Don McClure" <McClure@cc.admin.unt.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:38:16 -0500   Kevin, =20 Part II--if you cannot find the Lizst works locally, they should be = available online at: www.penders.com . I had to spell the composer's name as 'LISZT' for their search engine to find the works in question, and they = are: Organ works, Vol I , and Organ works, Vol II. Penders Music is a retailer, = with storefronts in Oklahoma City (OK) and Denton, TX--the University where I am on staff is approx 10 blocks from their Denton location, and they have found some *extremely* hard-to-find materials for me before. I have not yet located a keyboard transcription of that Wagner overture, however. =20 HTH, =20 dwm =20 Don W. McClure, PE University of North Texas, Denton dwmac@unt.edu   >>> kcartwright@pipe-organ.com 6/17/2005 12:56 PM >>>   Hello everyone of the lists! A friend recently played a CD for me and has = set me in search of two pieces of music arranged for organ:   1) Overture from "The Flying Dutchman" 2) The collected works of Franz Lizst (two volumes), including the second = volume with the 53 page one (I can't recall the name this late into the = work week.)'   If anyone could pull out their copies and send me the publisher information= so I can go to the local music store and squeeze their turnips to order = it...I would be most appreciative.   Thank you,   Kevin R. Cartwright Midtown, Atlanta, GA      
(back) Subject: Theory/History Placement test resources From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:49:26 -0700 (PDT)   I am looking for any information that listeres may have about online = resources that may be good review sources for Music Theory and History = Placement tests. I am reviewing old notebooks from Second Year Theory, but = other sources, and ones for History would be helpful. Thanks TDH   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: RE: Score Info Needed From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@comcast.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:59:39 -0500   Dutchman is in Vol. 4 of the Lemare transcriptions published by Wayne Leupold - WL600019. Available directly from him; wayneleupold.com or any dealer.       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Don McClure Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 1:38 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Score Info Needed   Kevin, Part II--if you cannot find the Lizst works locally, they should be available online at: www.penders.com . I had to spell the composer's name as 'LISZT' for their search engine to find the works in question, and they = are: Organ works, Vol I , and Organ works, Vol II. Penders Music is a retailer, with storefronts in Oklahoma City (OK) and Denton, TX--the University where I am on staff is approx 10 blocks from their Denton location, and they have found some *extremely* hard-to-find materials for me before. I have not yet located a keyboard transcription of that Wagner overture, however. HTH, dwm Don W. McClure, PE University of North Texas, Denton dwmac@unt.edu   >>> kcartwright@pipe-organ.com 6/17/2005 12:56 PM >>>   Hello everyone of the lists! A friend recently played a CD for me and has set me in search of two pieces of music arranged for organ:   1) Overture from "The Flying Dutchman" 2) The collected works of Franz Lizst (two volumes), including the second volume with the 53 page one (I can't recall the name this late into the = work week.)'   If anyone could pull out their copies and send me the publisher = information so I can go to the local music store and squeeze their turnips to order it...I would be most appreciative.      
(back) Subject: Re: Precorded Music From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:32:04 -0500   Emily Adams wrote:   > You do, however, touch on what I think might be a valid (to me, that > is!) argument against recorded performance, which is that by its very > nature it does not involve an individual actively offering an artistic > performance as an act of worship *right then.* In thinking this over, > I guess my attitude is that if there's no other viable alternative, > recorded accompaniment to a live performance might be theologically > appropriate.   to which I would reply that for me there are five non-negotiable criteria by which I judge whether or not recordings are acceptable in worship:   1) The recording is always inferior to a live human in real time; if a real person is available, even if their skill level is less than the recording, the real person is preferred.   2) The recording must be legally obtained by the person proposing to use it, and proper permission must be obtained for its use. If the recording is not legally acquired, or if permision to use it is not obtained in advance, it is a stolen work, and may not legitimately be use in worship.   3) Use of the recording must be consistent with the intent of those who recorded it. If it is known that the original artists would have objected to the playing of the recording in the context in which one proposes to use it, it may not be played.   4) Any recording used must otherwise be consistent with the policies of the place in which one proposes to use it.   5) It must be publicly represented as being a recording.     Then there is the question of other hybrids: I remember a few years ago, it was announced that the military was acquiring imitation bugles, because of the lack of qualified buglers to provide for all of the people who wanted bugles at internment of veterans. IIRC, the device resembled a bugle, and was held like a bugle, but the player did not blow into it; rather, it "played" a precorded version of "taps". Not at all unlike the titular organist of a place recording MIDI files of the hymns for a service, and having someone else start the files at the appropriate point.   I understand, in fact, that at one or more of the big churches in Paris, this is how recordings are made, as a consequence of external sounds. The artist comes in during the day, plays the material on the recording, which is recorded into the MIDI sequencer attached to the organ. Then, during the middle of the night, when the street noises from outside are not a problem, the program is replayed from the MIDI sequencer, and recorded from the live instrument.   ns    
(back) Subject: Re: Theory/History Placement test resources From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:51:55 EDT     In a message dated 6/17/05 1:50:14 PM, nicemusica@yahoo.com writes:     > I am looking for any information that listeres may have about online > resources that may be good review sources for Music Theory and History = Placement > tests. I am reviewing old notebooks from Second Year Theory, but other = sources, > and ones for History would be helpful. > > Thanks > TDH >   you need two text books-   Tonal Harmony by Kostka and Payne.   The Development of Western Music by Stolba   Start reading now--the books are thick.   Things I would focus on -   Key Signatures Chord functions--especially 6/4 chords-pivot chords, modulations, = AUGMENTED 6th chords, mixed mode FORMS!!!!!!! binary, rounded binary, ternary, SOANTA FORM!!!!!!!, basic counterpoint....inventions, imitation, canon, fugue--the anatomy of.   for the history section--know the dates of all periods, the major = composers and their dates, and the trends that can attributed to them. The history section will be much harder than the theory-count on having to =   take all the history sections.   Good luck- greg       Gregory F. Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net    
(back) Subject: Re: July 3 music From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:52:24 EDT   Dear List,   As an Anglican musician in the Land of Cromwell's Heirs (Boston), we'll certainly observe "Proper 9" (9th Sunday in Ordinary Time/Pentecost 7) on = July 3rd. The Prayerbook suggests good readings from Zechariah, Romans and Matthew, along with Psalm 145. The "theme" of the day seems to be "Come to me, all = you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest". = There is no Mass at St. John's on July 4, though it is a "prayerbook" holiday.   Patriotic music, in this context, would probably vex our congregation: = they are patriots, but not of the sort that equate their salvation with our = break from Rome or the Cof E or with the "nonconformist" views of the President = or the "nonconformist" views of those pesky ueber-Calvinist Puritans that fled an =   established Church only to establish one here in the Massachusetts Bay = Colony. I'd be willing to bet that a majority of our congregation will be coming = to church for religious, not secular, reasons this Sunday. Yet, we also take =   seriously that quote from Matthew 11:28 which graces our lectionary this = week in the form of the appointed Gospel. Can one be more American and more = patriotic than to dwell on Matthew 11:28? After all, it is paraphrased on the = pedement of the Statue of Liberty, probably seen by my immigrant relatives from = Britain, Holland, and Austria-Hungary on their way to Ellis Island just short of a Century ago.   The United States of America has a Constitution, and therein is separated Church from State. It was at least until about 1830, when the = "Congregational" church was disestablished in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, permitting =   Anglicans (damn few in those days, many today) to turn their taxes into = Tithes. I like to think of July 4th as Liberty, full stop. What better way to = celebrate In dependence than to "do one's own thing", while quoting the Gospels?   Just a thought on this whole Independence Day conversation.   Pax, Bill H SJE Boston            
(back) Subject: OHS Convention July 12-18 - Hotel Deadline From: "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:31:17 -0400   Though the block of rooms reserved for the OHS Convention July 12-18 at = the Radisson Hotel in Brockton, Massachusetts, is now completely filled, the hotel has allowed us to add fifteen rooms to the block and I don't expect them to last long. When they are gone, the hotel will have no more rooms. The hotel registration deadline was to have occurred Sunday, June 19, but the hotel has extended it and the special room rate so long as rooms are available. The number at the Radisson is 508-588-6300. Please call the hotel directly. The national 800-number does not have the rate or = up-to-date room information. Online registration is avaiable at:   http://www.radisson.com/organhistoricalsociety   Located fifty feet from the Radisson is the "other" OHS Convention hotel, the Super 8. It is a very pleasant hotel, includes breakfast with the = room rate (the Radisson does not), and is a little lower in cost. The number = at the Super 8 is 508-588-8887 and rooms remain available. But, one must be certain to say that one is attending the OHS Convention, first thing, otherwise some of the English-challenged desk clerks will tell you that no rooms are available. Yes, we've tried to fix it and have met with incomplete success.        
(back) Subject: Re: Score Info Needed From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:28:47 EDT   In a message dated 6/17/2005 1:56:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, kcartwright@pipe-organ.com writes: Hello everyone of the lists! A friend recently played a CD for me and has =   set me in search of two pieces of music arranged for organ:   1) Overture from "The Flying Dutchman" since we are not sure who transcribed the "Flying Dutchman" I might act = under the possibility that it is a Lemare trnscription, since he arranged many Wagner pieces for organ. That being the case, you might try contacting the =   publishers of Lemare's works. They were origianlly published by Novello in = Great Britain, by Schott in Germany. Many of these works have been republished = in the US by Wayne Leupold. there were 2 series of Lemare's works that are photo-reprints in the Leupold editions...series 1 (oroginal compostions, 4 = volumes) and several volumes of Series 2 which were the transcriptions of Wagner, = Rossini and many others.   Rick in VA  
(back) Subject: Re: Garbage From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:28:46 -0500   When I posted that request this morning and included a private note to the List Administrators I did it so that people might realize that other members of the list complain about the lack of editing. In looking back i probably should not have done that forward since some of you took the posting the wrong way. Sebastian writes some of the best postings on this list along with a few other members. Neither i or the person that sent that note to us, was trying to imply that SEbastian's posting were Garbage.   I'm sorry if I offended any of you and am especially sorry if i offended Sebastian.   David   At 11:20 AM -0400 6/17/05, Thomas Dressler wrote: >>>How many copies of Seb's garbage do we need in the digest? > >I have not been closely following threads lately, so I don't know >the context of this statement. But I have read lots of posts by Seb >and I find this hard to believe. > >I agree with the need to trim quotes, but to insert a slap like this >in the middle of a reasonable request is much MORE offensive to me >than the long quotes. I have had some very strong disagreements with >people on the organ lists, and no matter how much I might disrespect >their reasoning, I would try not to make such an infantile remark. >If there is anything that should be banished from the lists, it is >this completely disrespectful way of writing about one another. > >It should be a statement of the obvious that Seb's writing is not >garbage. Perhaps those who have a strong devotion to their art will >provoke strong reactions in others, but the answer is to THINK and >see if you have a logical argument to present. If you don't, perhaps >it would be helpful to look inside yourself and see why you feel it >necessary to try to demean them or hurt them emotionally. This >should not be acceptable behavior. > >Thomas Dressler > >http://www.thomasdressler.com > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>     -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Again Re: Garbage From: "Thomas Dressler" <rgtd@ptdprolog.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:08:40 -0400   Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.   I didn't read back to find the original posting. I misunderstood and immediately jumped in to defend Sebastian and the problem came about = because I spoke without knowing the context.   I am the one that needs to apologize, and I do.   After I wrote the post quoting Underdog, I thought probably Dudley = Do-Right would have been a better image:   "*I'LL* save you SEB!!!!!!"   blunder, blunder, blunder   Thomas Dressler   http://www.thomasdressler.com