PipeChat Digest #5229 - Friday, March 25, 2005
 
Re: New Digital Comparison Post By Richard Huggins
  by "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com>
Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments  Matt Responds
  by "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com>
Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments  Matt Responds
  by "Stephen Best" <stevebest@usadatanet.net>
Organ in NH
  by "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>
Re: New Digital Comparison
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: New Digital Comparison
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
post its
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: New Digital Comparison
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: Market Research
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: New Digital Comparison
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments  Matt Responds
  by "bnorth" <bnorth@intergate.ca>
Re: Theater models was New Digital Comparison
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison Post By Richard Huggins From: "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:58:25 -0800 (PST)   Regarding these points: First off ... let's tackle the easiest one ... regarding numbers of = models since anyone can research this for themselves: I did not count the Allen Theatre models because the question was asked = regarding a new organ for a Christian Science CHURCH. If you examine the Johannus site using the various drop down lists you = will find that the various lines, such as Opus, Sweelinck, Rembrandt, not = only have multiple models ..... but different versions such as the BDO and = French series. For Instance the Rembrandt line has 4 models, the Sweelinck = has 3, both come in French versions .... thats 14. Opus has 5. Makin = organs (Johannus owned ... so counted in my statement and mentioned by = name in my post) has 5. Monarke has 8 "standard models" even though they = are the custom line. Then there are several "special" models like the = American Classic V, and a new French Style organ in a French Style = console. I think that adds up to 34. If you examine the Diane Bish = series, you will see that except for approx. 5 voices they are exactly the = same organs and specifications as stock models ... Heritage organs are = the same as the Quantum models .... they are custom in that you can = specify the console etc. The stop lists are identical, as are the samples. I've played them and I have seen the "guts" of these via the = DOVE software. I know what I am talking about. Realism is NOT subjective, and I owned an R370 along with 4 other Allens, = so I know the Allen sound very well. You will find that as you add voices = on your Allen, due to very few DACs, the "pipelike" sound gets more and = more "electronic" in nature. If you examined how many samples went into = each rank, you would also see how few are "stretched" to make a whole = rank. Also compare channels of Audio on the various models to what = Johannus provides. You would also see the duplexing and unification in the Allen organs. None = of which you will find in Johannus organs. Mixtures on Johannus organs = are stored and voiced rank by rank. Not so with Allen, all mixtures are = voiced without this capability. Unless you have voiced both brands of = organs, you can't appreciate what adds to or takes away from pipelike = realism. As to losing market share (for classical organs), I will site just one = example. You may not be aware that for some years now, both Allen and = Rodgers have produced special models for a certain US based church that is = growing faster than any other church in the world. Allen has been = replaced by Johannus as of last year. Allen's overseas sales are now = negligible, this was not the case 10 years ago. As to the bottom line thanks to Theatre Organs, I suggest you keep track = of what is sold (such as 3 TO-5s .. SRP over $200K each) and then see what = AOC reports as sales figures. You can do the math. AOC has sold over 100 = GW4's each at an SRP of $125K as another example. If you think I'm wrong on my points, fine. 5 years from now, try to = remember this thread when "surveying" the E-org world. Matt Richard Huggins <huggins88@yahoo.com> wrote: > Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison > From: "Mattcinnj"   > 30 -40% of Allen's sales are now due to their Theatre Organ line, thanks to > home hobbyists. During the last several years Allen has lost significant > market share in their classical line to Johannus.   I'd be interested to know the factual sources for these opinions, particularly the last one.   > Being very knowledgeable about the 2005 models of Allen, Rodgers and Johannus, > there is no doubt that Johannus has the most realistic pipe sound.   "No" doubt? This is hopelessly subjective, as you know. As for your comment about the 2005 models, I play an older, Allen Renaissance model and it's realism is superb. Am I to believe that the realism is worse in newer models?   > Johannus has many, many more models at various price points that Allen and > Rodgers combined.   How many "many's" is that again?? Than the 2 leading manufacturers **combined**? Please quote your sources for such an as-if-fact statement.   A quick check of the three websites produced these facts:   Allen has at least 10 models in their "budget" (Protege) line; 2 in the 2-manual Renaissance line; 9 in the 2-4 manual Renaissance Quantum line; 3 in the Diane Bish Signature Series line; at least 2 in the Renaissance/Pipe combo line. In Allen's Heritage (custom) line there's no number because each organ is different, sort of a model unto itself. Allen also has 10 theater organ lines. So, there are at least 26 church models (not including any custom) and 10 theater.   For Rodgers I counted 8 Trillium; 2 Allegiant; 3 Insignia; and an unknown pipe-combo and custom line. So that's 13 static models, not counting custom.   Rough total of models, not counting custom or theater-only: 39   According to the Johannus site, they offer 5 Opus; 3 Sweelinck; 4 Rembrant; 1 American Classic; 4 Makin and ? Monarke (custom). So that's 17 models, not including custom.   Obviously this is a very rough count, but to me I'm not seeing the "many, many more"..."combined"...you claimed.   --Richard Huggins     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:         --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! 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(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments Matt Responds From: "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:24:41 -0800 (PST)   I made the "iffy" comment for several reasons ... and I do not equate it = in anyway to what just happened with Austin. They are different "worlds" = entirely. The entire pipe organ industry has been in decline for decades = now, the E-org builders are not in the same situation. Don't forget the = disastrous losses Kim reported on several large projects, and the role = they played in her decision. Reason number one is the recent upheaval when Rodgers dismantled most of = it's dealer network. Reason number 2 is that Rodgers exists ONLY because = of Roland's willingness to keep subsidizing it. I do not think this is a = very stable situation. At least Kim Austin was calling the shots at = Austin. Reason number 3 .... their reputation for NOT supporting older = models is a big factor why folks choose Allen over them, even if they = prefer the Rodgers sound. I don't think they can overcome these negative factors and I'm not = responsible for any of them. As I said in my last post .... let's all try to remember this thread 5 = years from now as we survey the E-org world. Matt   bnorth <bnorth@intergate.ca> wrote: "I disagree on the matter of choosing Rodgers over Johannus for several = reasons. Right off the bat, it is very "iffy" that Rodgers (never profitable for = Roland) will be around for much longer. " While Matt has the right to his opinion, I wonder, in light of the recent = closing of one of the great pipe organ builders, that comments like those = above do nothing to strengthen an already shaky industry. I don' t know if = others on this list were bothered by his comments, but I was and have been = thinking about this since i read them . Just so the record is straight, I = own an Allen organ, but have toured the Rodgers factory. ( I was = impressed by their work, and recommed taking the tour if you ever have the = chance) Matt, unless u have concrete information that you can share with us, that = the statement above is legitimate, I suggest you appologize to the list = for that comment, I find it very much out of line and hope others do as = well. One of the reasons the other company said they were going out of = business were comments similar to those above.         --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments Matt Responds From: "Stephen Best" <stevebest@usadatanet.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:40:25 -0500   I just looked at Rodgers website and saw a list of about 45 US dealers. How many dealers did the company have before it "dismantled most of it's [sic] dealer network"?   Steve Best in Utica, NY   Mattcinnj wrote:   > > Reason number one is the recent upheaval when Rodgers dismantled most > of it's dealer network. Reason number 2 is that Rodgers exists ONLY > because of Roland's willingness to keep subsidizing it. I do not think > this is a very stable situation. At least Kim Austin was calling the > shots at Austin. Reason number 3 .... their reputation for NOT > supporting older models is a big factor why folks choose Allen over > them, even if they prefer the Rodgers sound. > > I don't think they can overcome these negative factors and I'm not > responsible for any of them. > > As I said in my last post .... let's all try to remember this thread 5 > years from now as we survey the E-org world. > > Matt > > bnorth <bnorth@intergate.ca> wrote: > > "I disagree on the matter of choosing Rodgers over Johannus for > several reasons. > > Right off the bat, it is very "iffy" that Rodgers (never > profitable for Roland) will be around for much longer. " > > While Matt has the right to his opinion, I wonder, in light of > the recent closing of one of the great pipe organ builders, > that comments like those above do nothing to strengthen an > already shaky industry. I don' t know if others on this list > were bothered by his comments, but I was and have been > thinking about this since i read them . Just so the record is > straight, I own an Allen organ, but have toured the Rodgers > factory. ( I was impressed by their work, and recommed taking > the tour if you ever have the chance) > > Matt, unless u have concrete information that you can share > with us, that the statement above is legitimate, I suggest you > appologize to the list for that comment, I find it very > much out of line and hope others do as well. One of the > reasons the other company said they were going out of business > were comments similar to those above. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > = <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D31637/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resourc= es/>        
(back) Subject: Organ in NH From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:17:16 -0500   List,   I looked at the e-bay entry. I believe this is also the organ on keyboardtrader. I so wish I were closer to it so I could take a look at = it.   BTW, I tho't ebay was supposed to be an exclusive listing as long as the listing lasts - kinda like listing your house with a real estate agent. = You can't sell it thru anyone else until your listing expires.   Keith       -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.3 - Release Date: 3/25/2005    
(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:05:01 -0600   My best friend has just replaced his three manual Johannus with a two = manual Copeman-Hart and is very happy.   John Speller   ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 5:12 PM Subject: RE: New Digital Comparison       >I disagree on the matter of choosing Rodgers over Johannus for several reasons.   Against that, I'd suggest that Copeman-Hart is better than Johannus.   Ross      
(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:25:16 -0600   Good Evening, John: You wrote:     > My best friend has just replaced his three manual Johannus > with a two manual Copeman-Hart and is very happy. That is probably a non-arguable statement of fact. While I am currently selling Johannus, and like what I can offer for the price (based on cost to manufacture and sell from profitably from The Netherlands to dealers in the U.S.A.), you move from sampled sound to digital synthesis in the hands, mind, and heart of a very skilled person (Ernest Hart), and the result is a very musical organ creation. Again, however, you are describing two different technologies with disctinctively different capabilities in the audio spectrum. I like Ernest Hart very much. He does very fine work. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..    
(back) Subject: post its From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:46:10 -0600   I would think any commercial printer could make up post its in whatever = size printed however you like.   Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:20:07 -0500   First of all, the pictures (mostly pipes) look good, but the organ is otherwise in bad shape - needs a complete releathering, etc. The church was quoted over $200,000 to make it right again. Second, the auction has been terminated early because the organ was apparently listed on eBay by a parishoner without authorization from the rector.   - WG   >Russ: > >Take a look at this on Ebay. You won't believe what you are >seeing. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3D16219&item=3D7310= 677382&r >d=3D1 > >A pipe organ that can be taken for a song and is well maintained. >The church is to be renovated and the organ simply has to go by >June, 2005. At least take a look. > >Ron Severin >      
(back) Subject: Re: Market Research From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:22:29 -0500   Me, too.   >"Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> >Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:54:53 -0500 > >Make it 4 x 6 (inches), just staff ruled (let me put in the clefs and = stuff) and I'm >THERE! > >        
(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:52:32 -0500   "Richard Huggins" <huggins88@yahoo.com>   >>> From: "Mattcinnj" <mattcinnj@yahoo.com> >> >> >>> 30 -40% of Allen's sales are now due to their Theatre Organ line, >> >> >>> thanks to home hobbyists. >> That's fine, and believable in some territories. Allen is the only real game in town as far as theater organs are concerned, except for Walker, and you can't get Walker to even return your phone calls. Allen's TO line is unbelievably realistic, thanks to their having a TO buff in the top level of technical management and R&D.   >> During the last several years Allen has lost significant >> >> >>> market share in their classical line to Johannus. >> >> > >I'd be interested to know the factual sources for these opinions, >particularly the last one. > Allen has over a hundred recent installations in my immediate area. Johannus has one. Rodgers has one digital demo organ in a dealer's garage 2 hours away. This is not to say Johannus and Rodgers are bad, but the fact is that Allen has the lion's share of the market just about everywhere in the USA. I wish it were easier to make a comparison, because I am in the market for a new church organ, and despite a previous affiliation with Allen 19 years ago, I am considering all options as equally and fairly as I can.   >>> Johannus has many, many more models at various price points that >> >> >>>Allen and Rodgers combined. >>   This is just a lie. The actual numbers speak for themselves.   >--Richard Huggins > Thanks, Richard.   -WG    
(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments Matt Responds From: "bnorth" <bnorth@intergate.ca> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:05:02 -0800   From what you say here and your earlier posting, you continue to slagg a = company that has been around for a number of years and still is in the = business of manufacturing and selling electronic organs. The pipe organ = business has been in decline for years, but if you look at the number of = closures and amalgumations of congregations throught the United States = and Canada, the major market for electronice organ manufacturers, its = growing smaller. If, as one poster stated, that 90% of their business is = in church organs, I suggest that that market is shrinking too. You have = mention three reasons for your comments about Rodgers, but I don't see = any solid facts to back up ur comments. I still would like to see some = concrete proof, not rumors.=20   And it was the rumors that helped shut down Austin. You may have a = point about them not supporting older instruments, I dont know, thats = the first I have heard that comment on any of the organ chats. If the = other organ company is as good as you say it is, you dont need to knock = the opposition to gain points with consumers.=20 Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments Matt Responds     I made the "iffy" comment for several reasons ... and I do not equate = it in anyway to what just happened with Austin. They are different = "worlds" entirely. The entire pipe organ industry has been in decline = for decades now, the E-org builders are not in the same situation. Don't = forget the disastrous losses Kim reported on several large projects, and = the role they played in her decision.   Reason number one is the recent upheaval when Rodgers dismantled most = of it's dealer network. Reason number 2 is that Rodgers exists ONLY = because of Roland's willingness to keep subsidizing it. I do not think = this is a very stable situation. At least Kim Austin was calling the = shots at Austin. Reason number 3 .... their reputation for NOT = supporting older models is a big factor why folks choose Allen over = them, even if they prefer the Rodgers sound.=20   I don't think they can overcome these negative factors and I'm not = responsible for any of them.   As I said in my last post .... let's all try to remember this thread 5 = years from now as we survey the E-org world.   Matt   bnorth <bnorth@intergate.ca> wrote: "I disagree on the matter of choosing Rodgers over Johannus for = several reasons. Right off the bat, it is very "iffy" that Rodgers (never = profitable for Roland) will be around for much longer. "   While Matt has the right to his opinion, I wonder, in light of the = recent closing of one of the great pipe organ builders, that comments = like those above do nothing to strengthen an already shaky industry. I = don' t know if others on this list were bothered by his comments, but I = was and have been thinking about this since i read them . Just so the = record is straight, I own an Allen organ, but have toured the Rodgers = factory. ( I was impressed by their work, and recommed taking the tour = if you ever have the chance)=20   Matt, unless u have concrete information that you can share with = us, that the statement above is legitimate, I suggest you appologize to = the list for that comment, I find it very much out of line and hope = others do as well. One of the reasons the other company said they were = going out of business were comments similar to those above. =20     -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
(back) Subject: Re: Theater models was New Digital Comparison From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:10:32 -0500   We have one recent installation by Johannus in my immediate area. The church's organ commitee chose Johannus over the organist's vehement objections because they came in at a low, factory-direct price, with a proposal that touted 4 separate specifications, like the Allen Quantum line. When the organ was installed, the organist asked "How do I get the French stoplist?" She was told, "You can't. We have 4 stoplists, but you have to pick two, and that's all you get." Furthermore, they were told that only the reeds change between one stoplist and another because "the flues are all the same anyway." Hmm. I also found out that the commitee was told several rather dirty lies about the reliability of a nearby Allen that I have been playing regularly for the last 18 years - an instrument that still plays as well today as the day it was made. Is this how they operate in other territories?   - WG   ><Keys4bach@aol.com> > >Johannus has picked up % because they have been aggressive in going after = >the small stuff, like the Opus model and under pricing 4 manuals versus = the >competition by thousands of dollars. Like our farmers, government = subsidies, >however long a time period, sure is helpful to a company. > >dale awaiting service of darknessssssss > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:13:35 -0500   Matt, do you have some inside information from Roland management?   >"I disagree on the matter of choosing Rodgers over Johannus for several = reasons. > Right off the bat, it is very "iffy" that Rodgers (never profitable for = Roland) will be around for much longer. " >