PipeChat Digest #5234 - Saturday, March 26, 2005 Re: Walter 's Comments by <email@example.com> Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments Matt Responds by "Walter Greenwood" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Johannus in a Large Church Celebration by "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Larry L Cortner DMA R.I.P. x posted. by "Hugh Drogemuller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments Matt Responds by "Andrew Barss" <email@example.com> RE: Easter Music in Bethel, CT by "Christopher J. Howerter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Easter Music in Bethel, CT by "John Seboldt" <email@example.com> Enough Already by <Wdh2@aol.com> Re: Not another salvo in the current flame war - just a question by "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Acronym by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Walter 's Comments From: <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:13:17 -0500 new factories close down too. when the prices go up and they have already, sales will return to normal = and the competition will be sound and not price. dale -----Original Message----- From: Mattcinnj <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: PipeChat <email@example.com> Sent: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:42:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Walter 's Comments Walter, In this particular case, although I am in no position to comment on = exactly what the Johannus dealer did or did not do ,,, I can say, that = something has been lost in the translation regarding the various = Intonations (the 2 that you mention). Each Intonation has complete sets of = samples, rank by rank. From your part of the country, I can surmise that = the dealer in question is not one of the more experienced dealers and = that should be taken into consideration when using this example. This being said, neither this particular dealer, nor any dealer that I = know of, actually knows WHICH of the 18,000 samples that Johannus = advertises it has goes into each organ model. In the case of Reeds, it is = very, very obvious that these are different samples ....... since we know = how Baroque reeds differ tonally so much from our American Romantic (the = other Intonation). The same is true for the Strings and the Principles. = For Flutes, the difference is not so apparent since it is the degree of = "chiff" that our ears seem most sensitive to. For Mixture work, it is very = difficult to go "rank by rank" and really hear if those higher pitched = samples are different. Just as with the DOVE software, you must have a goodly amount of expertise = using it, to understand what you can and can NOT detect as to sample usage = and response to voicing. With DOVE you can actually see how the samples = are named and it is relatively easy to analyze exactly how many samples = are being used ..... along with how they are being "shared". From your = comments, it sounds to me as though this particular dealer (just like the = majority of Allen, Rodgers, Ahlburne Galanti, Viscount dealers) does not = have this expertise. I do ! If you think I don't, knowing nothing about me ..... there is very = little I can do to change your mind. Your other points are unfortunately all too true about a majority of = dealers for all brands, and even about Corporate Policies both official = and unofficial. The entire E-org industry is viewed by many as a very = dirty and highly competitive market. I'm glad I'm a customer and not a = dealer, and in fact would never be a dealer for ANY brand. I have been = lied to, heard the "competition" being lied about, heard slander, you name = it. There are folks, like me who will not buy a certain brand of E-org, .... = or prefer one brand over another due to what they know to be true from = personal experience ..... and also what they know from research .... and = from trusted "sources" in the industry. The Internet is certainly a help = in doing this research, since there are groups and lists aplenty for what = ever it is you are buying. The comments I post are a result of what I have experienced and = researched, rather extensively over the years. Time will be the final judge as to some of my conclusions regarding this = thread. Also, I should clarify that I was refering to WORLD WIDE market share, = when I mentioned that Allen's classical share was being lost to Johannus. = It is very easy to research what is being reported about Johannus's yearly = increases in dealers and US sales. Another factor ...... if you find out that one E-org builder is laying = folks off, and another has just completed building a new factory, you can = surmise certain things. Likewise, if one company has no debt, and another = one has overhead costs that can never be decreased, ... I think you can = "predict" what is "iffy" or not. Walter Greenwood <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: We have one recent installation by Johannus in my immediate area. The church's organ commitee chose Johannus over the organist's vehement objections because they came in at a low, factory-direct price, with a proposal that touted 4 separate specifications, like the Allen Quantum line. When the organ was installed, the organist asked "How do I get the French stoplist?" She was told, "You can't. We have 4 stoplists, but you have to pick two, and that's all you get." Furthermore, they were told that only the reeds change between one stoplist and another because "the flues are all the same anyway." Hmm. I also found out that the commitee was told several rather dirty lies about the reliability of a nearby Allen that I have been playing regularly for the last 18 years - an instrument that still plays as well today as the day it was made. Is this how they operate in other territories? - WG > > >Johannus has picked up % because they have been aggressive in going after = >the small stuff, like the Opus model and under pricing 4 manuals versus = the >competition by thousands of dollars. Like our farmers, government = subsidies, >however long a time period, sure is helpful to a company. > >dale awaiting service of darknessssssss > > > ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:email@example.com Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! 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(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments Matt Responds From: "Walter Greenwood" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:57:18 -0500 Dale, I think this is a prime example of Allen's commitment to support their legacy products. The early "computer" organs were based on custom chips manufactured by North American Rockwell and no-one else. Rockwell only made so many of those chips, and when the supply ran out, that was that. Rather than eventually abandon the owners of those organs, as some other companies might have done, Allen went to the trouble and expense to design new replacements for the old "computer" modules. Sure, they cost money - did you expect otherwise? The replacement unit is available and reliable, and far less expensive than producing new chips for the old units would have been. I know whereof I speak - I saw the problem coming and personally suggested this solution to Jerome Markowitz in 1985. - WG >Okay,so I can get tubes for my Model 5 Baldwin too.........i was of = course referring to computer models. WHere i had to upgrade my 301 with a = new computer because they no longer had the boards for the that model. > >Sorry for the inconvenience....:-) > >dale in Florida > > >From: Myosotis51@aol.com > >Hello Keys4bach@aol.com, > >In reference to your comment: >Allen really doesn't support older models. They MAKE the customer >UPDATE........not the same thing. Or, the new stuff is really old stuff >tweaked. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Hmmmmm...... so those WEREN'T new tubes the Allen service rep installed = into >my former church's 50's Allen? > >Just sayin'....... > >Victoria >
(back) Subject: Johannus in a Large Church Celebration From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:13:09 -0600 Hello, Matt: =20 We are using a new Johannus Rembrandt 370 Platinum=20 Edition tomorrow morning at a very large Methodist=20 gathering. This is one of the larger Methodist=20 Churches with about 25,000 members and they try=20 to gather as many of their people on Easter Sunday=20 every year. =20 This is not your "typical" gathering. We will=20 open with the last movement of Saint Saens Symphony=20 No. 3, "The Organ Symphony." =20 If you want a picture, let me know by REPLY, and=20 I will give you a picture of Johannus playing for=20 9,000 people on Easter Sunday morning. =20 If all goes well, maybe I can get a copy of the=20 VHS recording in a couple of weeks. =20 F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: Larry L Cortner DMA R.I.P. x posted. From: "Hugh Drogemuller" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:18:53 -0500 Larry Cortner died this morning in London Ont. after an illness of some months. Larry is well known and respected for his many years on the Organ = Faculty at The University of Western Ontario. He will be remembered by many of his contemporaries at Oberlin and Eastman. A few months ago I was chatting with one of the great organists of our time and Larry's name came up. This person had heard Larry's playing that won him the improvisation prize at the 1971 St. Albans Organ Festival. His comments were that Larry's performance to win that event was one of = the greatest performances that he had ever experienced. Funeral arrangements are pending. Hugh Drogemuller London Ont.
(back) Subject: Re: New Digital Comparison-Matt's comments Matt Responds From: "Andrew Barss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:51:43 -0400 And the DM-4 combination action board is another such example. Designed and built expressly to serve customers who had the old double-memory combination action -- a system for which production had ceased around 10 years prior to the DM-4 being created! I recall hearing (Walter can likely confirm or correct this) that the old DM boards used 1MB memory chips. Memory devices that small were, of course, virtually impossible to find by the mid-1990s. In response, Allen redesigned the board around currently available components. Dale, you can spin that as a "forced update" if you wish but the bottom line is that the customer is able to have the instrument repaired and operating 100% rather than either replacing the entire organ or living with an ongoing problem that cannot be repaired. In my opinion, that's not an "inconvenience," it's good service and customer support. Andrew Barss Halifax, Nova Scotia On Mar 26, 2005, at 10:57 PM, Walter Greenwood wrote: > Dale, > > I think this is a prime example of Allen's commitment to support > their legacy products. The early "computer" organs were based on > custom chips manufactured by North American Rockwell and no-one else. > Rockwell only made so many of those chips, and when the supply ran > out, that was that. Rather than eventually abandon the owners of > those organs, as some other companies might have done, Allen went to > the trouble and expense to design new replacements for the old > "computer" modules. Sure, they cost money - did you expect otherwise? > The replacement unit is available and reliable, and far less > expensive than producing new chips for the old units would have been. > I know whereof I speak - I saw the problem coming and personally > suggested this solution to Jerome Markowitz in 1985. > > - WG > >> Okay,so I can get tubes for my Model 5 Baldwin too.........i was of >> course referring to computer models. WHere i had to upgrade my 301 >> with a new computer because they no longer had the boards for the >> that model. >> Sorry for the inconvenience....:-) >> dale in Florida >> >> From: Myosotis51@aol.com >> >> Hello Keys4bach@aol.com, >> >> In reference to your comment: >> Allen really doesn't support older models. They MAKE the customer >> UPDATE........not the same thing. Or, the new stuff is really old >> stuff tweaked. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Hmmmmm...... so those WEREN'T new tubes the Allen service rep >> installed into my former church's 50's Allen? >> Just sayin'....... >> Victoria >> > > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:email@example.com> > List-Digest: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:email@example.com> >
(back) Subject: RE: Easter Music in Bethel, CT From: "Christopher J. Howerter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:00:14 -0500 Dear List, I've never posted a list of the service music before, but I thought that = I should start since I see others doing it and this is a particularly = festive occasion. The United Methodist Church of Bethel, CT March 27, 2004 9 a.m. and 11 a.m. with Brass Quintet,(3) Timpani, and Cymbals Lisa Cutrone - Piccolo Trumpet/Trumpet Erin Scirina - Trumpet Stephanie Gordon - French Horn Keith Bonenfant - Trombone Doug Campbell - Bass Trombone Timpani - Justin Yancowicz Cymbals - James Wolff These are all fine students from Western Connecticut State University at Danbury were I also attend except for the lattermost person who is a talented member of the 15 voice choir. Prelude: Prelude from the "Te Deum" - Marc-Antoine Charpentier Processional Hymn: "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" - EASTER HYMN - = Arr. By Eberhard Ramm Call to Worship Easter Proclamation and Lighting of the Paschal Candle The Gloria (from "Missa de Santa Maria Magdalena") - Healy Willan The Prayer Anthem: O Love, How Deep, How Broad, How High - Carl Schalk (Trans. By = C. Howerter) The First Lesson The Psalm (from Respond and Acclaim) The Second Lesson=20 Hymn: "The Strife is O'er" - VICTORY The Gospel with Alleluia, Acclamations, and Anglican Chant from the LBW = and 1982 Hymnals Brass and Organ: Grand Choer Dialogu=E9 - Eugene Gigout Sermon The Prayers and Exchange of Peace Anthem: This is the Day the Lord Has Made - Mark Hayes (Arr. By C. = Howerter) Hymn: This is the Feast of Victory" - FESTIVAL CANTICLE The Great Thanksgiving with Sanctus and Acclamations from the 1982 = Hymnal - McNiel Robinson The Lord's Prayer Agnus Dei (from 1991 Hymn Supplement to the LBW) The Eucharist and Prayers Dismissal and Blessing Recessional Hymn: "Thine Be the Glory" - JUDAS MACCABEUS - Arr. By = Eberhard Ramm Postlude: Praise the Lord with Timpani and Beautiful Cymbals - Sigfried Karg-Elert I recommend those stunning arrangements of the hymn tunes by Eberhard = Ramm for brass and timpani. Indeed, they are fine pieces. The transcription = and arranging of the two pieces by yours truly are to incorporate the brass. = As you will notice one is transcribed and the other is arranged. Of course this follows the whole bit on the difference between the two as per = previous discussions on the list! <grin> Hope everyone's Easter is filled with = joy and happiness as we look forward to the time of resurrection for all of = us church musicians--after the services! Sincerely, Christopher J. Howerter, SPC Organist and Choirmaster The United Methodist Church Bethel, CT Home: (203) 798-9809 Mobile: (610) 462-8017
(back) Subject: Re: Easter Music in Bethel, CT From: "John Seboldt" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:25:28 -0600 Christopher J. Howerter wrote: > Dear List, > > I've never posted a list of the service music before, but I thought that = I > should start since I see others doing it and this is a particularly = festive > occasion. > > The United Methodist Church of Bethel, CT > The Gloria (from "Missa de Santa Maria Magdalena") - Healy Willan > The Psalm (from Respond and Acclaim) > The Gospel with Alleluia, Acclamations, and Anglican Chant from the LBW = and > 1982 Hymnals > Hymn: This is the Feast of Victory" - FESTIVAL CANTICLE > The Great Thanksgiving with Sanctus and Acclamations from the 1982 = Hymnal - > McNiel Robinson > Agnus Dei (from 1991 Hymn Supplement to the LBW) Pretty eclectic service music for a Methodist church, my good man! Not a bad Easter mix. John Seboldt Milwaukee, WI
(back) Subject: Enough Already From: <Wdh2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:39:19 EST One of the biggest problems in the organ society is the unwillingness of hardheaded know-it-all childish individuals who are too ignorant to = understand that EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN OPINION. There are members of this = list who think Allen is the most realistic sound, others think Rodgers is most pipelike and so on. Arguably, there have been organists who thought = Baldwin and Conn had nice sounds as well. 100 years ago, someone liked the sound of = Roosevelt, others thought Hook and Hastings had a better product, while some chose Kimball, Hutchings, Johnson or even Walcker. 55 yrs ago, it was a GDH = Aeolian Skinner for some, while others chose Austin, Wicks, Schlicker, Schantz, = Reuter, Moller, Casavant or the many smaller local builders. What I've just seen over the past 3 days, however, is unconscionable. Matt, you've made statements about the potential insolvency of a major manufacturer based on evidence you have YET to produce. This kind of = vicious and uninformed rumor-mongering should not be tolerated by the moderators of = this list. Once again, you are called upon to divulge the source of your information, = and failing that, to retract your "statement" and apologize to the list at = large. Just for the record Matt, here in the Washington, DC area, I've not heard = of ONE significant Johannus installation. Rodgers and Allen have been the = instrument of choice for YEARS and there is no reason to believe that this will = change significantly. Over the past 40 years that I've been an organist, I've = found things about Rodgers that I liked, and I've also found things to like = about Allen. As the sounds of the instruments have changed over the years, I've = found things to dislike about both companies. The point that many seem to miss = here is that churches, pastors, Trustee boards, Organists or whomever the institution chooses to make the decision to buy WHATEVER they buy, it is a = complete waste of time and bandwidth to second-guess and Monday-morning-quarterback = a decision that NO ONE ASKED you to make in the first place. I've read = recent responses from 2 posters on this list who have painted with a very broad = brush, their opinions about why churches choose electronics over pipes. As a = teenager, I played for a church which had a 1920s vintage pipeorgan by a local = builder. At 8am, the church sanctuary could have been as cold as 50F but by the 11am service, the sanctuary might have reached 80F or above. Imagine that old = organ responding to a temperature shift as I've described. Add to the mix that = the church was having financial problems. Maintenance of the pipe organ was a = priority that came in well below the church's cash cow, the Nursery. My last Easter = at that church, I was almost relegated to the Hammond because a power failure = in the neighborhood had tripped the blower starter relay and the church = wouldn't pay a $25.00 service call to have the relay reset. I left that post soon thereafter. There are many churches in the DC area with nice pipe organs = which were once excellent instruments and now are calliopes that I wouldn't want = to hear at all because the church has not had the money or the fortitude to = have adequate repair and attention as the instrument required. For such places, = an electronic is the last stop before organ music disappears completely. I, = too would MUCH rather have a nice pipe installation, but I have no interest in = having a pipe organ that the church will not maintain. I have also had more than = 5 Allen Organs in churches I've played for and 2 Rodgers. None of them have = been maintenance free, but they didn't incur the expense of a monthly or even quarterly visit. Even now, as the price of oil climbs and those who fill the pews every = week find their wallets taxed by worldly expenses which can't be denied, many congregations are seeing the weekly collection drop. The deficit will be = felt in all quarters and the music quarter is often first to be pinched. The point has = already been made that 80% of finance comes from often 20% OR LESS of the congregants and I'm willing to wager that very few have special endowments = set aside for perpetual maintenance of the pipe organ. Finally, enough of this childish and asinine rumor-mongering. Yes, I heard = the rumors of Austin's predicted demise as far back as 2002. Some = indicated Austin would not last into 2003. They were wrong. But the lies that were = spread had a very real effect on Austin's ability to inspire confidence in their solvency and ability to deliver as contracted. Now we have the results of = those lies and the doors have indeed been shut. There are those here who may be old enough to remember that Aeolian Skinner's eulogy had been preached well in = advance of it's demise as well. Perhaps we can remember that this is a very = litigious society that we live in. The spreading of slanderous tabloid rumoring may find the spreader in court explaining his postings.
(back) Subject: Re: Not another salvo in the current flame war - just a question From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:10:10 -0600 Hello, Walter: I am authorized to solicit sales for Johannus in the northeast quadrant of Texas, and also work in the "open territories" of Okalahoma, west Texas, and the eastern plains of New Mexico from about Las Cruces to Clayton. Do you live anywhere near here? Go to my websites at www.DorianOrgans.com and www.TempleOrgans.com for some information and MP3 recordings. I answer all E-mail. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs Post Office Box 450522 Garland, TX 75045 972-530-7601 (desk phone-early most mornings) 214-498-6431 (Sprint PCS when NOT at my desk) ..
(back) Subject: Re: Acronym From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:18:12 EST "She Who Must Be Obeyed" has been around a long time, but it would be fair = to say that John Mortimer immortalized the phrase, at least most recently, = in his "Rumpole" books of 20 or 30 years ago. While I occasionally use that phrase to refer to my quirky Hutchings (as = in, when she needs to be repaired, she demands it agressively as well as functioning at her whim), I do not recommend using it to refer to one's = wife. At least not in their company. ;) Cheers, Bill H. Boston