PipeChat Digest #5316 - Thursday, May 5, 2005
 
Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ?
  by "Andy Lawrence" <lawrenceandy@gmail.com>
Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ?
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ?
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Pipe organs in Baptist Churches (Was: Re: Re: new topic)
  by <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com>
An organ goulash.....Angst in Eastern Europe
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ?
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
RE: An organ goulash.....Angst in Eastern Europe
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: aspiring organbuilder
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
"Continuing education"
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Pipe organs in Baptist Churches
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
RE: An organ goulash.....Angst in Eastern Europe
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Heads-up on current  EBAY Dutch Auction (X-posted)
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: "Continuing education"
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: "Continuing education"
  by "Jeffrey Koehler" <jeffk13057@yahoo.com>
Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ?
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ?
  by "Maurits Lamers" <maurits@weidestraat.nl>
Re: "Continuing education"
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: "Continuing education"
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ? From: "Andy Lawrence" <lawrenceandy@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:17:12 +0100   Good point. In Jim's proposal (not a bad one) this is another line that would have to be drawn. Guess I'd say the difference would be in how critical the electronic voices are. Could the organ still do its job if the electronic voices were taken away? If not, its a hybrid.=20 If so, its mostly pipe. Where I disagree with Jim (just for the sake of not being too anal), I would classify a "mostly-pipe" organ simply as a pipe organ... if I were the author of the catalogue, which I'm not.   I also feel, for the sake of argument, that if you take a complete, useful, servicable 20 rank organ, and add 300 digital voices to it, but do not modify the pipe part of the organ, the pipe part of the organ could still be classified as a pipe organ just as a car with a trailer attached can still be considered a car. The question for me (if I were the author, which I'm not) would be, is it a usable, complete organ if the digital voices are taken away? If so, the pipe organ part is a pipe organ.   Not cut and dry, I know, but little in life is.   So Peter, in 20 some odd posts, you have essentially 2 useful proposals... mine and Jim's. Hope you can find them, and that they help you decide how to proceed. :)   Andy   On 5/5/05, Maurits Lamers <maurits@weidestraat.nl> wrote: >=20 > Dear list, >=20 > What is the difference between organs that are mostly pipe and a > hybrid.. ? >=20 > greetings >=20 > Maurits  
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ? From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 05:57:16 -0400     On Thu, 5 May 2005 10:17:12 +0100 Andy Lawrence <lawrenceandy@gmail.com> writes: > Good point. In Jim's proposal (not a bad one) this is another line > that would have to be drawn.   Andy:   I believe it was you who said something about whether or not the pipe part could stand on its own would mark a hybrid. This is a good way or marking the delineation.   I was thinking that "mostly pipe" would be an organ which has a few electronic solo voices and or strings plus some pedal. If any part of the foundation voices of the organ is electronic, I would assume the organ to be a hybrid. In other words, the organ must have "all pipe" principals (except in the pedal). In addition all of the basic flutes and chorus reeds must be pipe. In other words, you can produce a full ensemble sound without resorting to fake stuff, with the possible exception of one or two of the pedal stops.   There will always be a gray area. Life is full of gray areas. They are not to be worried about. They are not important. Flip a coin on the gray ones. They will still be in the book.   Jim  
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ? From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 03:33:00 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   With Johannus and Cantor being based in the Netherlands, I wonder if any pipe/electronic hybrids have emerged there?   As you all know, I have spent many happy weeks in Holland and played or heard some of her finest instruments.   As I haven't actually come across a hybrid pipe/electronic in Holland, I wonder what the reasons may be. Is it simply that there isn't a market for new organs, or could it be that the Hollanders are a little more discerning in their musical tastes?   Without being disparaging to the makers of digital organs, and with due respect to their remarkable achievements in recent decades, am I right in thinking that no-one has yet produced a CONVINCING neo-baroque electronic substitute, whereas it seems perfectly possible to produce very acceptable digital symphonic style instruments.   Somehow, even with the success of the Netherlands digital organ makers, I doubt that there is going to be a rush to replace what they already have in Holland....the best PIPE organs in the known world.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     <maurits@weidestraat.nl> wrote: > > Dear list, > > What is the difference between organs that are > mostly pipe and a > hybrid.?     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organs in Baptist Churches (Was: Re: Re: new topic) From: <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 06:35:58 EDT   Also, First Baptist Church in Nashville has a wonderful room and a = wonderful organ. For many years, First Baptist was "the" place to hold organ = concerts in our city. Now, fortunately, several more concert organs have been = built. Charles Tompkins has a fine c.d. on the organ at First Baptist Church in = the city where Furman University is located (I'm foggy this morning on = location). Broadway Baptist in Fort Worth is faaaaaaaaabulous! And the list could go on and on and on and on and on and on! Yours, darryl  
(back) Subject: An organ goulash.....Angst in Eastern Europe From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 04:01:05 -0700 (PDT)     Hello,   It is a well known fact that Petr Eben was jailed by the communists in the former Czechoslovakian regime, but I was a bit shocked....quite why I do not know....to learn that the Russians had imprisoned the organ-builder Angster (of Pecs, Hungary) simply because he owned a business.   Thus came to an end one of the most important organ companies in Eastern Europe, started by the Great Grandfather of the company who had studied and worked with Cavaille-Coll in Paris, and had also spent TEN YEARS wandering around Europe, studying various organs as he went.   I'm up against a problem, in that I cannot read, let alone speak, the Hungarian/Czech languages, and in any event, the organ world seems to be less well documented or discussed there than it is elsewhere. I am slowly using various free translation URL's to decipher the information to hand, but it is a slow business, prone to all sorts of mis-translations and errors, of which I can usually make sense eventually.   Which reminds me, that someone once fed into an automated Russian/English translation device the words, "One man's meat is another man's poison." It re-merged as "The meat is rotten but the booze is good".   Does anyone....anywhere....know of any English sources of information about Angster and their successors, the Pecs firm?   Between them, they have built some VERY large and important instruments.   Regards,   Colin MItchell UK   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ? From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:16:59 -0400     On Thu, 5 May 2005 03:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Colin Mitchell <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> writes: > Hello, > > With Johannus and Cantor being based in the > Netherlands, I wonder if any pipe/electronic hybrids > have emerged there?   > > As I haven't actually come across a hybrid > pipe/electronic in Holland, I wonder what the reasons > may be.     Dear List,   Although I have no knowledge of the particulars, I do know that some aspects of organ building/restoration are under the control of the State in the Netherlands.   At one time, Dr. Martin Vente, was the "control" person.   He would be a good person to ask about this, if anyone knows how to get a hold of him..   With that, I depart this subject. Anything more from me would be a smattering of ignorance. (apologies to Oscar Levant).     Jim  
(back) Subject: RE: An organ goulash.....Angst in Eastern Europe From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 23:35:33 +1200   >Which reminds me, that someone once fed into an automated Russian/English translation device the words, "One man's meat is another man's poison." It re-merged as "The meat is rotten but the booze is good".   Might as well get it correct, Colin. The original was "The spirit is = willing but the flesh is weak" and the computer translation was as you've given = it. :-)     The other notable computer translation was of the proverb "Out of sight, = out of mind" which became in Russian "invisible and insane".   Some people do this sort of thing very publicly. Remember JFK's remark in Germany, "Ich bin ein Berliner." I seem to remember this meaning, "I am a doughnut."   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: aspiring organbuilder From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:43:21 -0400     On Wed, 4 May 2005 23:32:43 -0700 "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net> writes: > I would like to inquire for advice about building a career as an > organbuilder or service technician.       Randy:   To start, I would ask Jack Bethards, at Schoenstein, for possible employment in an entry level position. Other than that, I would follow his suggestion about what to do in the greater San Francisco area.     Jim  
(back) Subject: "Continuing education" From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 06:41:32 -0500   I've heard this term come up several times in relation to organ training. I was wondering, particularly from any organ instructors or college professionals out there. When we speak of "continuing education" in the legal and medical fields, it has a specific meaning: we mean required periodic courses to update or upgrade us in our field, post-graduate and post-license (i.e., so many hours every year or 3 years or whatever).   Is that term used more loosely in the organ degree field (for lack of better term this morning), or would it refer to post-graduate training of some type?   Just curious.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com (big hearing today - trying to pave new roads to justice, will probably lose)        
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organs in Baptist Churches From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:51:51 EDT   Baptist churches get a bad rap about the style of music that we do. Since =   each church is autonomous, only being affiliated by conventions, there is = a wide variety of styles from one church to the next. There are churches who = might be very traditional and only use the pipe organ while others are very contemporary and only use a priase band and have no desire to ever see an = organ. Some are high church, some are low church, some are evangelical, some are = liberal, some are affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, some are also joined with the American Baptist, some are Cooperative Baptist, some are = SBC and Cooperative, some are part of the Alliance of Baptists. There are also = many, many other associations, such as the General Baptists, Conservative = Baptists, General Assoc. of Regular Baptists, etc. Each individual church has it's = OWN flavor. Unfortunately, in the US, when most people think "Baptist," we = get this idea of a big fat preacher sreamin' and hollerin', with a Hammond and a Leslie throbbing away on old-time revival songs. While that may be the = case in certain parts of the country, it is FAR from the norm.   In Charlotte, NC, First Baptist, has a fabulous 3 manual Casavant, = Pritchard Memorial Baptist has a very nice three manual Casavant, and both churches = do middle of the road Protestant styles of worship. Myers Park Baptist, has = long since dropped it's Southern Baptist ties, but it houses a great 3 manual Aeolian-Skinner, and they are VERY formal in their style of worship, = complete with a choir in cassock and surplice that processes each week, behind banners = and Bible and sits in a divided choir loft in the chancel. Upon first glance, = the church could pass as an Episcopal church!   Broadway Baptist in Ft. Worth, TX, has a huge 5-manual Casavant, West Hartsville Baptist, Hartsville, SC, has a 3 manual Wicks, First Baptist, = Darlington, SC has a Moller, First Baptist, Rock Hill, SC had a big 3 manual Kilgen = that was removed and replaced by an Allen. Most of the Baptist churches I know = all have classical digital organs if they don't have pipe organs. The ones = that have Hammonds have them in their chapels and don't have Leslies on them. = (too bad!) The only reason that they have Hammonds is because that was the = only electronic alternative that they had way back yonder and they've served = fine for 50 years and they don't want to replace them.   Oh, I forgot, 1st Baptist, Atlanta, had a four manual Schantz, before they =   moved and sold the former church property--in the new building, they have = a Rodgers.   Even Jerry Falwell's church, which is independant Baptist, has a Rodgers = with pipes. (Liberty Baptist)   Sorry to ramble, but it's just a stereotype that we Baptists have Hammonds...but there are some of us who have pipe organs AND Hammonds!!! = :)   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: RE: An organ goulash.....Angst in Eastern Europe From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 05:19:25 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Thanks to Ross for putting me right with that delightful anecdote re: translations.   I think the "One man's meat..." was another one, but I've got the two confused.   I love the impeccable, minimalist Russian logic re: "Out of sight, out of mind"...translated as "Invisible and insane."   I suppose that could apply to many organists!!!!   Would this be "offtopic" I wonder, or just "a rotten subject?"     Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK         --- TheShieling <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > > Might as well get it correct, Colin. The original > was "The spirit is willing > but the flesh is weak" and the computer translation > was as you've given it. > :-) > > > The other notable computer translation was of the > proverb "Out of sight, out > of mind" which became in Russian "invisible and > insane".       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Heads-up on current EBAY Dutch Auction (X-posted) From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:26:16 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)   Hello. I just wanted to give everybody a "heads-up" on a chance to own a part of organbuilding history! I am currently selling catalogs that were part of the advertising material for a long-out-of-business historical name in = pipe organ building: The Gratian Organ Builders.   But here's the important part: at the time of its closure in the late = 1970's (the owner, who was the grandson of the founder was in his 90's!) it was is the OLDEST ONGOING ORGAN COMPANY IN AMERICA! The firm was founded in 1858, one year prior to the venerable M=F6ller = Organ Company of Maryland. Here's the URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D7319269356   It is at once obvious that a LOT of care (and cost!) went into producing these booklets and they are in MINT condition! They're brand-new stock fresh out of the package, even though they were produced 83 years ago.   Sincerely,   Richard Schneider  
(back) Subject: Re: "Continuing education" From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 05:41:12 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Surely, the secret of life is "continuing education?"   It is the one thing which enables the metamorphosis of personal improvement as may be appropriate to our true natures.   I think it matters little whether "continuing education" is formal or informal, or whether it is at this school or that. It is only in the powerhouses of academia that such labels matter a great deal. In the wider world, people are accepted for what they are or are not.   If Desiree is desirous to continue her learning, who is anyone to question that?   I, for one, am right behind her.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK           __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: "Continuing education" From: "Jeffrey Koehler" <jeffk13057@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 05:54:03 -0700 (PDT)       As probably the oldest pre-med student on the planet (maybe) at age 42, = and becoming the most serious Bach organ student (maybe) as well, I for = one applaud Desiree's desire to be the best she can be. Besides opposable = thumbs, it is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.   As my 9 year old would say, "YOU GO, GIRL."   Jeff K   Syracuse     --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ? From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:00:40 -0400   At 06:33 AM 2005-05-05, you wrote: >Hello, > >With Johannus and Cantor being based in the >Netherlands, I wonder if any pipe/electronic hybrids >have emerged there? > >As I haven't actually come across a hybrid >pipe/electronic in Holland, I wonder what the reasons >may be. Is it simply that there isn't a market for new >organs, or could it be that the Hollanders are a >little more discerning in their musical tastes? > >Without being disparaging to the makers of digital >organs, and with due respect to their remarkable >achievements in recent decades, am I right in thinking >that no-one has yet produced a CONVINCING neo-baroque >electronic substitute, whereas it seems perfectly >possible to produce very acceptable digital symphonic >style instruments. > >Somehow, even with the success of the Netherlands >digital organ makers, I doubt that there is going to >be a rush to replace what they already have in >Holland....the best PIPE organs in the known world. > >Regards, > >Colin Mitchell UK   Colin,   I don't think the church market in Holland is very strong at the moment = for either pipe or electronic organs. Most churches over there that use = organs would already have a pipe organ. With the formation of the PKN (Protestanse Kerken in Nederland), there were many cases of amalgamated churches, so at the moment the country is flush with surplus pipe organs. Most of these surplus pipe organs are of the 1960s neo-baroque type, which few seem to want.   As for hybrids in Holland, I'm not sure why you would want to turn an 18th =   or 19th century tracker into a hybrid. It would be too costly, and the results may not be what you want. The only real candidates would be = organs with electric transmission relays, and again these are the organs that are =   not considered very desireable in Holland.   I think you are correct about digitals trying to reproduce a credible baroque or neo-baroque organ. Although they do sound much better in the last 10 to 15 years, the overall effect of digitals does not capture all the nuances of the best pipe organs.   And I agree with you, that Holland, though a small country, has an = enormous number of fine examples of pipe organs. Almost every town has a pipe = organ that is decent, if not really good. That is why in churches they don't rush to replace them with digitals.   Arie      
(back) Subject: Re: When is a pipe organ not a pipe organ? From: "Maurits Lamers" <maurits@weidestraat.nl> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:05:00 +0200   Hi all,   > > With Johannus and Cantor being based in the > Netherlands, I wonder if any pipe/electronic hybrids > have emerged there?   I know a few organs around 's-Hertogenbosch and Eindhoven (in the south of the Netherlands) but I never came across a hybrid organ, so I never actually heard such an organ. There are places where they have both an electronic organ and a pipe organ, or only an electronic organ (which sound terrible most of the times, because they are at least 20 years old...), but I never came across any form of merging.   > > As you all know, I have spent many happy weeks in > Holland and played or heard some of her finest > instruments. > > As I haven't actually come across a hybrid > pipe/electronic in Holland, I wonder what the reasons > may be. Is it simply that there isn't a market for new > organs, or could it be that the Hollanders are a > little more discerning in their musical tastes?   I am not sure... Part of it may have to do with the task of an organ in church, which is mainly accompaniment of hymn singing. I should probably tell, that you could divide the Netherlands in two parts, the north which is mainly Protestant (Dutch reformed and lots of less strict kinds) and the south (below the river Maas), which is mainly Roman Catholic. There is a difference between church singing in the north and the south. The north has hymn singing like in the UK, in the south the people in church almost never sing, only a choir sings...   Fact is that most churches in the south of the Netherlands have an electronic organ, because of the hype in the seventies of "jongerenkoor" (a youth choir singing mainly pop songs of the seventies, like Bridge over Troubled Water by Simon and Garfunkel, using adapted dutch texts...). Because a piano was too expensive they bought a cheap electronic organ, because it needs no tuning... Advice was rarely asked. A real Dutch solution... <grin>   Fact is too that these choirs still exist in most village churches, and that the people that started the choirs in the seventies often still sing in these choirs... A few months ago someone in my village was honoured for being member of a "jongerenkoor" for 25 years. (!) So it seems that there was never really a need for a hybrid organ.   Besides that I think that Dutch organ builders don't know too much about digital techniques... They know how to build MIDI support into an organ, but that is almost as far as it goes.   > > Without being disparaging to the makers of digital > organs, and with due respect to their remarkable > achievements in recent decades, am I right in thinking > that no-one has yet produced a CONVINCING neo-baroque > electronic substitute, whereas it seems perfectly > possible to produce very acceptable digital symphonic > style instruments.   Without being disparaging to anyone on this list, I never actually heard one convincing electronic substitute for a pipe organ. I heard several Johannes and Cantor organs, but they are never really convincing tp me. Maybe having a MA in Sound and Music Technology has something to do with it ;-)   To return to the subject a bit:   I still think that any organ that has both pipe stops and electrical stops, that reproduce synthetical or sample based stop sounds should be called a hybrid. This division has nothing to do with a quality stamp or something like that.   The question was about a determination scheme for organs. When making such a basic determination, you have to be very strict. The more strict the model is, the better you can make additions later on. The less strict it is, the more difficult it will be to make additions, because one still has to wonder where the borders are...   So, the lesser strict the rules of the basic model, the weaker it will be...   One still can refer to a hybrid organ as a pipe organ, but for determination purposes it is a hybrid.   > > Somehow, even with the success of the Netherlands > digital organ makers, I doubt that there is going to > be a rush to replace what they already have in > Holland....the best PIPE organs in the known world.     Thank you for the compliment :)   Greetings   Maurits     > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > > <maurits@weidestraat.nl> wrote: >> >> Dear list, >> >> What is the difference between organs that are >> mostly pipe and a >> hybrid.? > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: Re: "Continuing education" From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:54:19 -0700   >Hello, > >Surely, the secret of life is "continuing education?" > >It is the one thing which enables the metamorphosis of >personal improvement as may be appropriate to our true >natures.   When "big Blue" employer threw yours truly plus hundreds of others out in 1993, i was at a los as to what to "begin" at age 48. but only briefly.... I decided to go back to college to get a 2 year degree. This was after a Dilbert-like existence in cubicles and being fed management "manure".   Anyhow.....   Suddenly I was surrounded by people in their early twenties, full of life , ideas, and spirit. My lab partners were a girl who shaved her head and a guy who wore totally black clothes and had purple hair to his waist. and they turned out to be great and brilliant kids!   All i can say is that it broadened my out look on life, made me understand my own teenagers better, and it turned out to be some of the best 2 years of my life. And I graduated with honors!   education ...go for it!   John V --  
(back) Subject: Re: "Continuing education" From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:24:06 EDT   Dear Glenda: In the general academic community, "continuing education" implies coursework after the earning of a degree, as far as I know. This is different from CLE requirements in the ABA context, which is = what comes to mind for the JDs and LLMs in our midst. Of course, legal organizations usually arrange things such that CLE programs are held at = golf resorts in wonderful climates during the winter. Not so with such symposia as "The Variant Mordent in Luxembourg 1722-1727: Gottlieb Strudel and the Pacifist Ornament Movement in = Historical Literary Context."   Sebastian