PipeChat Digest #5337 - Saturday, May 14, 2005
 
Re:Registering  Reger...Thanks to...
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re:Registering  Reger...Thanks to...
  by "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Eastern Europe: Poland
  by "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net>
Re: acoustical question
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Shieling
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
doppelt
  by "Domitila Ballesteros" <dballesteros@uol.com.br>
Eastern Europe: Poland, Danbury
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: Shieling
  by "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com>
Re:Registering  Reger
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Out of date, out of mind. (old and insane?)
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
8' Obe
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: acoustical question
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: Shieling
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: Eastern Europe: Poland
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: 8' Reger
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re:Registering Reger...Thanks to... From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:54:45 EDT   Desiree wrote: A cordial thanks to a lister who kindly put me in touch with David Cox, of =   Maxreger.com, regarding Reger. Very kind of you to do so, with an extra = foot forward. It was a good lead.     Two questions... 1. What Reger pieces are you working on?   2. Given your past history of registrational free thinking, what does it matter how one would register Reger? You're going to do what you want = anyway. When you came to my church for the Church Music Summit and played Pierne' = you clearly ignored the registrational markings as MARKED by the composer. = You told me how you played the Pierne' in one of your recitals and how you = played it, also, ignoring the registrational markings, Desi-ing it up because you thought it sounded better, but you couldn't give me any good reason for = your doing so. If you ignore composer's markings for whom we have first hand = accounts of what they did, why are you concerned with the works of Reger and how the German Romantics registered?   I'm just curious at what has brought about the change of heart in six = months time?   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re:Registering Reger...Thanks to... From: "Desiree'" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:14:42 -0700 (PDT)   Interesting...really. If I recall correctly, I drew 8' stops, and the principal organist for = Friendship Baptist Church came and drew the Oboe 8' as I was playing the = Pierne. Actually, no..wait a minute. AHH It' comes to me clearly now. The = principal organist for the Friendship Church simply hit a piston while i = was playing on dead manuals. When things came on, I simply put on all 8's. = This individual then put on the 8' Obe...from the Swell. Something Pierne' = does NOT call for. I think it is quite clear that Mr. Bennett simply feels that a musician = cannot grow over time. Apparantly, no one else on this list is capable of = growing musically, nor can people change their thoughts on music, or how = to register organ works. As far as the works of Max Reger, I will do various things to learn about = the registration of Reger. Some feel that Straube influenced Reger to put = registrations in his works, but Reger did not want to do this, saying that = the registration should be interpreted by the performer. I will consult = various sources. Cordially, TDH   RMB10@aol.com wrote: Desiree wrote: A cordial thanks to a lister who kindly put me in touch with David Cox, of =   Maxreger.com, regarding Reger. Very kind of you to do so, with an extra = foot forward. It was a good lead.     Two questions... 1. What Reger pieces are you working on?   2. Given your past history of registrational free thinking, what does it matter how one would register Reger? You're going to do what you want = anyway. When you came to my church for the Church Music Summit and played Pierne' = you clearly ignored the registrational markings as MARKED by the composer. You =   told me how you played the Pierne' in one of your recitals and how you = played it, also, ignoring the registrational markings, Desi-ing it up because you thought it sounded better, but you couldn't give me any good reason for = your doing so. If you ignore composer's markings for whom we have first hand accounts = of what they did, why are you concerned with the works of Reger and how the German Romantics registered?   I'm just curious at what has brought about the change of heart in six = months time?   Monty Bennett   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Eastern Europe: Poland From: "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:34:45 -0700 (PDT)   Dear List Friends: Paul Valtos commented on the fact that one didn't hear the organ being = played when he visited churches in Poland. I can't say for sure, but I = would assume that the attitude of the Roman Catholic clergy in Poland is = similar to that of the RC clergy elsewhere in Europe: when churches are = open, they are open for prayer and visitation, not for organ practice. In = my experience the organ in European RC churches can only be played after = the church closes for the day. For example it is certainly that way in = Paris and Vienna, two cities with which I am very familiar. So if you = visit a church as a tourist during the daytime hours when it is open, you = probably won't hear the organ being played. The clergy usually don't = allow it. Organists practice elswhere during the day, if they practice = then at all. I visited Krakow in January 1974, when I was a student of Anton Heiller at = the Hochschule fuer Musik in Vienna. Martin Haselboeck, who was a = classmate of mine, had been invited to play a recital at the Dominican = Church in Krakow, a very historic medieval church, and he asked me to go = along with him on the trip. Martin managed to wrangle an invitation for = me to play a short recital, too. Josef Serafin, was the organist of that = church then; I believe that he is at the Conservatory in Warsaw now. The = organ was a sizeable 19th. century tracker (I believe that it was a = Rieger, but I'm not absolutely sure now) and it had one of the heaviest = actions I have ever played. Because it was January, and there was no heat = in the church, it was frigid! One had to wear a heavy coat while playing, = to keep from freezing. There was a mirror above the organ console in = order for the organist to be able to see the altar. I remember that I had = to huff and puff to play because of the extremely heavy action and because of the heavy clothes. I generated quite a cloud of = breath; my breath rose and FROZE on the mirror! There have been few times = in my life when I have been so cold.... Stephen Roberts Western Connecticut State University, Danbury, CT USA  
(back) Subject: Re: acoustical question From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 06:21:56 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   A three manual organ would require not a split personality, but a "fugue state".   Sorry to be pedantic!   Regards,   Colin MItchell UK     --- nelson denton <ndenton@cogeco.ca> wrote: > > > >In one of yesterday's digests, scot wrote: > >"we have a 3-manual organ, each manual in its own > expression chamber at the > >rear of the chancel." > > >Doesn't that make it quite hard to play? Most > organs have the manuals > >together in a console. <VBG> > > > Naw! That organ is for organists with split > personalities       __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Shieling From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 06:26:21 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Never trust anything which is out of date, and that includes the Oxford English Dictionary.   At least I know the origin of the word "boffin", which is more than can be said of the OED!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   > > Okay. Then I'll burn my copy of the Oxford English > Dictionary. And to think I > ever trusted that drivel.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/  
(back) Subject: doppelt From: "Domitila Ballesteros" <dballesteros@uol.com.br> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:41:57 -0300   Hello,   I need some help. In Klotz (1934), the organ disposition of Marienkirche of L=FCbeck, by Praetorius, one can reed   "R=FCckpositiv: Prinzipal 8', Oktave 4', Oktave 2', Mixtur - doppelt, mit eignen Z=FCgen"   I'd like to know what means "doppelt, mit egnen Z=FCgen". I thank you in advance if someone can help me.   Thank you very much. Domitila       Re  
(back) Subject: Eastern Europe: Poland, Danbury From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:45:28 -0400   Dear List,   Rather a lot of years ago, on a freezing winter's day, my partner and I = were trolling around the Lake Candlewood area in Connecticut, looking = for property. We stopped into Stephen's church (St. Peter, Danbury) to = see if we might catch the 4:30 Mass. Any thoughts of getting warmed up = were dashed. The church was like a deep freeze. We heard just a bit of = the Organ, followed by what sounded like a hurricane. A wind conductor = had fallen out of a chest in the chancel division. Organ off, in wheeled = an upright piano. Stephen did valiant and truly authentic work on some = French Classical music. Toward the end of the mass, the priest said: = "When we were children, we all asked our parents at some time if the = light really went out when the refigerator door was closed. "Today," he = said, "we are in a very large refrigerator, the door is closed, AND the = lights are still on. Question finally answered."   Recalled with a shiver by Malcolm Wechsler ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stephen Roberts=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Eastern Europe: Poland     Dear List Friends:   Paul Valtos commented on the fact that one didn't hear the organ being = played when he visited churches in Poland. I can't say for sure, but I = would assume that the attitude of the Roman Catholic clergy in Poland is = similar to that of the RC clergy elsewhere in Europe: when churches are = open, they are open for prayer and visitation, not for organ practice. = In my experience the organ in European RC churches can only be played = after the church closes for the day. For example it is certainly that = way in Paris and Vienna, two cities with which I am very familiar. So = if you visit a church as a tourist during the daytime hours when it is = open, you probably won't hear the organ being played. The clergy = usually don't allow it. Organists practice elswhere during the day, if = they practice then at all.   I visited Krakow in January 1974, when I was a student of Anton = Heiller at the Hochschule fuer Musik in Vienna. Martin Haselboeck, who = was a classmate of mine, had been invited to play a recital at the = Dominican Church in Krakow, a very historic medieval church, and he = asked me to go along with him on the trip. Martin managed to wrangle an = invitation for me to play a short recital, too. Josef Serafin, was the = organist of that church then; I believe that he is at the Conservatory = in Warsaw now. The organ was a sizeable 19th. century tracker (I = believe that it was a Rieger, but I'm not absolutely sure now) and it = had one of the heaviest actions I have ever played. Because it was = January, and there was no heat in the church, it was frigid! One had to = wear a heavy coat while playing, to keep from freezing. There was a = mirror above the organ console in order for the organist to be able to = see the altar. I remember that I had to huff and puff to play because = of the extremely heavy action and because of the heavy clothes. I = generated quite a cloud of breath; my breath rose and FROZE on the = mirror! There have been few times in my life when I have been so = cold.... =20   Stephen Roberts Western Connecticut State University, Danbury, CT USA
(back) Subject: Re: Shieling From: "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:35:05 -0700     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org>   > Never trust anything which is out of date, and that > includes the Oxford English Dictionary.   Can a work whose purpose is to trace historical usage really become "out = of date?"   MAF    
(back) Subject: Re:Registering Reger From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:40:29 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Well, that's one way of waving sticks at people!   Let's try and make a bit of sense of of all this, bearing in mind that "talking" about the "sound" of an organ is rather like tasting oil-paintings.   I don't know how many romantic German instruments are available for study on the America continent (which MUST I think, include South America, to where I believe a number of German organs were exported). In the UK, we have the mighty Schulze organs in more or less authentic tonal condition, and they happen to be almost on my door-step.   The Schulze organs give a few clues as to the type of organ sound associated with German Romantic organ works, but even they cannot replicate the sounds of the later, much heavier toned instruments of Walcker, which Reger probably had in mind when he wrote his big works. (The Walcker organ in the Riga Dom, Latvia was performed upon by Straube)   Performing on American or English romantic/symphonic instruments, we immediately run into an almost insurmountable problem when attempting to register Reger's works, even assuming that any meaningful registrational indications are given; other than manual changes or overall dynamic.   Digressing slightly, there is a slightly (but only SLIGHTLY) useful lineage in UK/USA organ thinking, which has some small bearing on Reger. T C Lewis had a profound effect on G.Donald-Harrison. Schulze had a profound influence on T C Lewis in the UK.   Consequently, there is a certain "empathy" of style between the American Classic and the organs of T C Lewis, which by default, hark back to the German instruments of Schulze.   The larger American Classics have ONE advantage in their favour, in the availability of such instruments of a General Crescendo pedal, which corresponds "more or less" to the German "rollschweller".   However, it ain't that simple!   Even in Straube's own life-time, there was a distinct move away from the excessive 8ft tones and heavy basses of the typical late Walcker style of instrument. Passau Dom (Cathedral) is an example of a vast instrument designed and built along more "classical" lines tonally; that too having a rollschweller control. (Karl Straube was involved in the design.)   Max Reger was essentially a pianist and orchestral composer, and in his "psyche" (read "madness") there is the romantic orchestrator at work, who just happened to revel in baroque counterpoint and the music of J S Bach.   The "rollschweller" was an attempt to orchestrise (that's a new word for Sebastian to ponder!) the organ, and wasn't just a volume control. The rolling of a "rollschweller" made full use of the cone-valve windchests, with their abrupt cut-off and cut-in of pipe ranks. Because German organs of the period had a huge wealth of 8ft registers of various timbres and dynamic, the crescendo effect is accompanied by huge changes in timbre AND sonority.   Thus, in one small passage, it possible for the organ to change from a lamb to a roaring lion and back again, and THIS is what WE CANNOT DO on American or English instruments.   Because our control of dynamics is based around the dominance of the Swell Organ, and the effectiveness of swell shutters, this particular Reger-ism is slightly beyond reach without a veritable army of "little helpers" pulling out stops and whacking them back in again.   OK, it would be possible to set up thumb-pistons accordingly, but in Reger, the thumbs are kept pretty busy, and both feet are often occupied with double-pedalling!!   Even Reger's insistence upon very dense writing with lots of octave doublings, suggests that he was attempting to orchestrise (that word again Sebastian!) both the writing and the organ, when such are really a bit of a daft idea.   So, my conclusion is that we "register" Reger as best we can, but always from the position of "knowledge"....knowing the sonic effect that would have issued from a late romantic German organ with a Rollschweller....but re-interpreting the music to suit the organs at our disposal to-day.   Perhaps "registering" Reger can never be truly accurate or authentic, but that doesn't mean that we have to be unfaithful to the music.   The three points we always need to keep in mind are:-   a) Reger hadn't a clue what he was doing   b) German romantic organs were conceived as Symphony Orchestras   c) We MUST make changes in order to effect a half-decent performance.   So it isn't a case of freedom, but a case of artistic licence, as much musical integrity as we can muster and a LOT of bloody hard work!   Have fun Desiree, follow the muse, but listen to a few Walcker organs on the way.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   PS: Off to lick a Rembrant now!         --- RMB10@aol.com wrote: > > > Two questions... > 1. What Reger pieces are you working on? > > 2. Given your past history of registrational free > thinking, what does it > matter how one would register Reger? You're going > to do what you want anyway.     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Out of date, out of mind. (old and insane?) From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:42:22 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Of course they can.....all those silly old baroque organs, for example!   ;-)   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- M Fox <ophicleide16@direcway.com> wrote: > > Can a work whose purpose is to trace historical > usage really become "out of > date?" >     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs  
(back) Subject: 8' Obe From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:56:27 EDT   I don't think that there is such a stop on a French organ as an 8' Obe. = As a matter of fact, the 8' Hautbois was generally considered part of the Fonds = de 8 in many works, and was not on the ventil to add the Anches, because although it IS a reed, most organists, composers and organbuilders didn't = view it as such. They saw it as a way to beef up the foundations. The Cavaille-Coll =   Hautbois is a very different stop than our American or British Oboe or = "Obe". Let me refresh your memory back to your recital in Detroit at Hartford = Memorial Baptist Church in which you told both myself and several other listmembers =   how proud you were that you used the full battery of reeds and mixture in = the Swell AND the 32' Contra Bombarde in the Pedal to end the work. In this = small scale work, that is not entitled Toccata, as you and Diane Bish call it, = Pierne does not call for the Contre Bombarde. You felt that it was necessary to = add it, but had no good arguement as to why--other than you wanted to. = Because is not an answer or a valid arguement.   Yes, I agree people can grow...   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: acoustical question From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:31:24 EDT   In a message dated 5/14/05 6:22:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk writes:   > Hello, > > A three manual organ would require not a split > personality, but a "fugue state". > > Sorry to be pedantic! > > Regards, > > Colin MItchell UK > > > --- nelson denton <ndenton@cogeco.ca> wrote: > > > > > >>In one of yesterday's digests, scot wrote: > >>"we have a 3-manual organ, each manual in its own > >expression chamber at the > >>rear of the chancel." > > > >>Doesn't that make it quite hard to play? Most > >organs have the manuals > >>together in a console. <VBG> > > > > > >Naw! That organ is for organists with split > >personalities   i guess i forgot to mention that my middle name is sybil. no it isn't, = it's eve. oh, shut up. no, you shut up!  
(back) Subject: Re: Shieling From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:37:39 EDT     In a message dated 05/14/05 9:26:50 AM, Colin Mitchelluk (cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk) writes:   "Never trust anything which is out of date, and that includes the Oxford English Dictionary."   Thank you for reminding me that 1989 is "out of date." Oddly, here in backwards, unsophisticated, rural New York City, we still = use the terms "petty crap," "idiotic waste of bandwidtch," and "offensive = waste of time."   This exchange has ended, unless you really MUST have the last word.    
(back) Subject: RE: Eastern Europe: Poland From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:47:22 +1200   >In my experience the organ in European=A0RC churches can only be played = after the church closes for the day.=A0 For example it is certainly that way = in Paris and Vienna, two cities with which I am very familiar.=A0 So if = you=A0visit a church as a tourist during the=A0daytime hours when it is open,=A0you = probably won't hear the organ being played.=A0.=20   Well, I was in Paris last September and spent two hours in Notre Dame. = The rough sounds coming from the organ were most definitely practice and not = a recital.=20   >The clergy usually don't allow it   There was not the slightest evidence the place even had any clergy.   Ross      
(back) Subject: Re: 8' Reger From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:45:53 EDT   Obvously, 8' Obe was a "dropped letter." It happens to us all. What was also dropped, however, were the answers to some simple = questions.   It would help the list to know what Reger works you are learning, Desir'ee, since many people on this list may have studied them, if not = performed them. They may have specific information about the works, either from = study experience, or having discussed the works with a knowledgeable scholar. = They may even have some caveats about corrections, depending upon the edition(s) = you are using. Obviously, you HAVE grown. If you have moved from letting a stranger register for you by piston, to consulting scholarly texts, this is = represents many leaps and bounds. Was there a particular turning point? Monty's questions may "sound" pointed when read on the screen, but = when many questions arise at once, especially since Monty has had first-hand experience with your former performance practices and theories, the = interpretation of a post can get a bit muddled.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City