PipeChat Digest #5339 - Sunday, May 15, 2005 Re: Night Owls: Practice in RC Churches (was "Eastern Europe") by "Paul Valtos" <email@example.com> Re: EASTERN EUROPE - POLAND by "Paul Valtos" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Titles by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: 8' Reger by "N. Russotto" <email@example.com> Re: Breaking Registration rules and what to call pieces.(anyone have this by <RMaryman@aol.com> Disregarding the composer's directions by <TubaMagna@aol.com> RE: 8' Obe by "Ray Ahrens" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: 8' Obe by "Desiree'" <email@example.com> pedal reeds and a 1960 Moeller by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Titles by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Re: Durufle tomorrow by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Re: Durufle tomorrow by <ProOrgo53@aol.com> RE: pedal reeds and a 1960 Moeller by "Michael David" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: Night Owls: Practice in RC Churches (was "Eastern Europe") From: "Paul Valtos" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:18:26 -0400 Dear Stephen, Years ago when my wife and I were in Vienna, we stopped in the Karl = Kirche (built in comemoration of Franz Josef's survival of an assasin's = bullet) at which time someone was practicing at the church during the = day. This was 30 years ago and it might be an exception to the rule.=20 Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stephen Roberts=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Night Owls: Practice in RC Churches (was "Eastern Europe")=20 Dear List, Ross mentioned that he heard practicing going on in Notre-Dame. I'm = not surprised at all. The atmosphere in Notre-Dame more closely = resembles that of a large train station in a great city (think NYC Grand = Central Station) than it does that of most Catholic churches. The only = Catholic church in the USA that I know that is rather like it is St. = Patrick's Cathedral on Fifth Avenue in NYC. Both are full of tourists = milling around like cattle all of the time. They are both in the very = heart of the city, and both are major tourist attractions. I happen to = have some inside knowledge of the thinking of the clergy at Notre-Dame, = and I can tell you that they depend quite heavily on the money generated = by all of those tourists. The din in Notre-Dame is really quite amazing = at times. If an organist is practicing loudly, then all the tourists = raise their voices when chatting with th eir fellows. The clergy at = Notre-Dame long ago gave up on the idea of silence in the nave, so it = doesn't matter whether an organist practices or not. The only place I = remember where there was quiet whenever I have visited ND was a side = chapel in which the Blessed Sacrament was exposed and Adoration was = going on. =20 It isn't like that at St-Sulpice. I played a recital there in 2003, = and I can tell you that organists are only allowed to play at night. If = I'm not mistaken, no organist can ever practice at any time in = Sacre-Coeur de Montmartre, since there is Perpetual Adoration 24 hours a = day. Daniel Roth told me that the clergy in most of the big Parisian = churches won't allow organists to practice when the church is open for = prayer. He was my source for that information, and I believe that he is = in a rather good position to know. I also believe that it's always been = like that; as a result organ practice time in Paris is really difficult = to come by. That's why the most famous Parisian organists have always = had house organs. I've played in a couple of RC Cathedrals in Germany, = and I was only allowed to practice after the church closed. The same is = true of Stephansdom in Vienna, where I have played twice. When I was in = college eons ago, I accompanied our university choir on a tour to = Italy; we were only allowed to practice at night in St. Mark's in Venice = and some other big Italian churches. The same was also true of the = Basilica of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Buenos Aires, where my = students and I gave a recital in January 2004. I'm playing at the = Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City in July, and I have = been told that I can only practice after the Basilica has closed for = pilgrims. In my own experience, Notre-Dame de Paris, the church Ross = cited, is the exception rather than the rule. Most of the great RC = cathedrals don't allow organists to practice, at least not the ones = where I have played. Stephen Roberts Western CT State University, Danbury, CT USA
(back) Subject: Re: EASTERN EUROPE - POLAND From: "Paul Valtos" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:37:24 -0400 Dear Colin, Many of the organs in the churches of the Polish villages are in disrepair or the pipes were stolen by robbers of the Nazis during WWII. = One church had a keyboard on the railing of the organ loft and speakers behind the organ case. The facade pipes were still attached. In fact I have a picture of that organ case in our album of the trip. I also have pictures = of organs in Poland from "Die Blauen Bucher" "Orgeln in Aller Welt" which I picked up in Germany when stationed there 30 years ago. It shows an organ in St. Marien Torun (in this book under Polish administration)Lublin St. Johannis, Gdansk Monastery Church,Lezajsk, Rzeszow Bernadine Monastery,Landshut, Schlesien, Evangelical Church of Grace,(Under Polish administration)Krakow, Missionary Church, Sancygniow, Kielce, SS Peter & PaulJedrzejow,Kielce Monastery Church,Krzyowniki, Poznan,. There are others I know but one must keep in mind that most of major Poland was and still is RC and the organ was not of the same importance to the liturgy as it was to the Lutherans (Evangelische)That is why you will find most major organ installations in present day Poland in regular churches, except for major cathedrals or monastery churches found = in those territories occupied by Germany prior to WWII. That is not to say = that major finds of historic organs cannot be found anywhere in what was the = old Poland. Kielce and Rzeszow are examples. Remember that Warsaw was 90% destroyed by the Nazis in WWII. Those organs are all post 1945. Actually most in Danzig (Gdansk) were also destroyed. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 11:27 AM Subject: EASTERN EUROPE - POLAND > Hello, > > There are seminal moments in life! > > Just when I was getting slightly bored, I stumbled > into East European organ culture....... all very > historic and interesting........then I hit POLAND!! > > I "thought" I knew a bit about organs and > organ-history, but have now decided that I know > absolutely nothing at all. I suppose I was grounded in > those delightful books about "modern organ > building",(Herber Norman) or Sumner's "The organ" and > all the rest, which are usually very interesting, but > have seldom mentioned a great deal about what we now > know as Eastern Europe, unless the area was somehow > connected with Bach or Silbermann. > > I've probably been quite naive, if not a little > foolish....I mean, Poland is just a flat place with a > bit of ship-building around Gdansk...isn't it? > > The fact that the last Pope came from Poland, might > reasonably have alerted me to the fact that religion > is sort of "live and kicking" there, but I'd assumed > that they probably just sang old hymns based on old > Polish folk-songs and sprinkled themselves with holy > water every day. It's a backward, poor country and the > shoes they made were terrible during the communist > years; usually falling apart within weeks. Then there > were those awful Polski-Fiat autos, which broke down > every day or just refused to start, as rust visibly > spread as you watched. > > Well Poland may be a relatively poor country, and one > which has been held back by grinding communism and a > lack of development, but when it comes to organs, they > have the lot! > > Not only is there a very substantial history, with > truly world-heritage instruments (and especially > organ-cases), the number of organs built during the > 19th century was remarkable. Things have obvioulsy > been quite eventful too, and one comes across > delightful references to the fact that an organ "is > now in Sweden, after the invading army stole it!" I > don't know whether they had organs melted down for tin > or lead (bullets) as they did in Hungary, where only > instruments prior to 1850 were spared officially, (a > lot somehow survived), but Poland has certainly had > more than her fair share of troubles, invasion, > warfare and oppression. > > It is quite likely (though I have no evidence for > saying this) that organ-building in Poland has > probably suffered like it did in the Czechoslovak > communist regime, with lots of nationalisation, poor > quality components and an "iron fist" control from the > authorities. Nevertheless, even if I come across this > sort of evidence, the fact is, there have been a large > number of new organs built in Poland, and still > continue to be built because religion is quite a big > thing there. > > I also find that there are fine performers, fine > academies, organ-festivals, real organ composers and > instruments which spread across the ages, from the > 16th century, through the baroque and romantic and > right up to the present day. > > Here is a fascinating URL, which gives an insight into > the scale of the organ industry in Poland. > > http://www.zych.com/ > > Only established in 1967, and only then building their > first new organ in 1975, Zych have since built a large > number of instruments; some of them quite monumental. > The URL is fascinating, for not only does it contain a > very good English version of things, it has many, many > photographs and, under the heading of "recorders", > many audio mp3's of their work. Most of the other > organ-builders do not have web-sites, and in fact, it > is quite difficult to "fire up" the links to some of > the URL's in Poland; such is the lack of speed on many > internet connections. > > I now face an enormous problem, for not only am I > struggling on with the Hungarian language and organ > tradition, and collecting a huge amount of data from > the Czech and Slovak regions, I now find a HUGE amount > of organ related material from a country with an even > MORE obscure language. Working out what the computer > generated translations actually MEAN, is a bit like > doing the London "Times" crossword; but the "blunder > egg" is still a marvel of machine translation which > defeats my imagination. > > As a visual feast, I reckon that Poland has some of > the most fantastic old organ cases on the planet, and > I would recommend a bit of time to take a look at > them. > > More later! > > It should be fun trying to discover the history of the > huge 110-stop, 5 manual organ at Gdansk, and if that > doesn't sound ALL that large, do please keep in mind > the fact that in Eastern Europe, a unit organ is > virtually unknown, and with BIG churches requiring BIG > mixtures, I reckon that at Gdansk, we may be looking > at 160+ ranks and about 9,000 pipes. > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:email@example.com> > List-Digest: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:email@example.com> >
(back) Subject: Titles From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:05:09 EDT I always try to call a work by it's proper title or it's translation. Sometimes, a work such as a sonata might only have movements numbered as = I, II, III, but are called by their respective tempo markings, i.e. Allegro Maestoso, Andante Tranquillo, or what the movement is, i.e. Fuga. If a piece such = as a chorale prelude is some obscure chorale, that nobody in the congregation = is going to know, like Nun Bitten Wir, I will use an English translation, = such as We Pray Now to the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, I will use the German title = first, with the English in parenthesis. Using old books for registrational advice might not always be the most scholarly, especially since the Trois Pieces of Pierne is readily = available in print. Since those old compilation books usually were edited by organists = who took great liberties with registration, articulation, and in French romantic performance practice sometimes cut sections out or changed notes, it's = always best to check out the works against an original score. I have a book of Dubois = that calls for registrations of Melodia and Cornopean for a melody--stops = that would have been unheard of in 19th century France, but that was the = editor's hand at work. Agnes Armstrong should weigh in here, since this is her area of = expertise... I will admit to taking liberties with the Cantilene, sometimes not using = only the Trompette and Hautbois as marked, but going to a Flute Harmonique for = the reprise, which is something that would be in the style. I have no problem = with break the rules, BUT have a reason as to why you broke them. I sometimes play Bach trio sonata movements ochestrated as a chamber orchestra--Cello in the Pedal, Flute and Viole in the manuals. = Considering that one of the d minor trio sonata movements is actually a transcription of one of = Bach's chamber works, it's a legitimate way to play it, if one choses not = to be authentic and play on some kind of sparkly registration. I'm far from a = purist, as most people here know. Of course, playing music on American organs, that was written in another country, one must always use their ear, because we have to approximate registrations most of the time, however, if we do know what the composer = wanted, we should try to follow performance practice. I have no problem with = breaking the rules IF you know the rules, BUT you've got to know the rules and have a = good arguement for doing such. On early trackers where winding was a problem, = or organs with voicing issues, being cautious of what stops one uses is = really important. Not over registering is something to watch. You can't just = pull on stops at random because it will get muddy or rob wind from other ranks. = However, there are other organs where you have to have all the 8' stops on just to have enough foundation. On many true Baroque organs, not the American neo-Baroque organ reform instruments, the 16' pedal reeds (and 32's, too) have much more foundation than the 1/2 = length or even the 1/4 length, that are installed in many instruments = today. One doesn't need to have a lot of other foundation stops on because there = is so much weight with a wooden resonator Posaune on. As to the Claire Coci trick of pulling on stops, she usually pulled on something like the Dulciana or some other soft stop that obviously made no = difference to the chorus nor did it rob any wind, but on the last chord, = it just looked impressive to add one final stop, like the red Tutti indicator light = coming on, or the famous Diane Bish "stomp" for the final note of a piece. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: 8' Reger From: "N. Russotto" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:25:04 -0500 I wouldn't have called that "cordial". Websters defines cordial as: Warm and sincere; friendly. Wouldn't have called it that. Dont even want to infer what that little point about change, etc. means. I do think that some people on this list should take Rohrsharch and the MMPI, maybe they would all get confined. I dont understand why people must blast away at others on list. Not pointing fingers, but COME ON!!! NFR On 5/14/05, Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug <email@example.com> wrote: > On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 09:21:19AM -0700, Desiree' wrote: > > =20 > > Im simply a red bleeding human like any others on this list,=20 >=20 > what? I'm the only one here who bleeds green? > :) >=20 > Yes, I DO think this thread needed a bit of levity. >=20 >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Administration: mailto:email@example.com > List-Subscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:email@example.com> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> >=20 >=20 --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/
(back) Subject: Re: Breaking Registration rules and what to call pieces.(anyone have this boo... From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:00:15 EDT In a message dated 5/14/2005 2:33:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, email@example.com writes: This compiler/editor entitles the piece "Prelude-Toccata". Why did the publisher allow this? Its that ok to do that? What are opinions? If this is the piece that I believe it is, and I think that Monty also referenced it, is the Prelude-Tocatta fromt he Pierne "Trois PIeces" (it = is the first of the three in the edition that I have). The second piece is the = lovely Cantilene, and the third piece is also a tocatta (don't remember hte = title, and the music is in my 'stack of stuff' on the bench, as I am playing the = Cantilene in another week or two as the prelude. The third piece is also a wonderful = fugue in 6/8 time. I have only heard a couple of peeple play the fugue = (one being Virgil Fox on a private label recording). quite a challenge. Rick in VA
(back) Subject: Disregarding the composer's directions From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:31:19 EDT Ladies and gentlemen: Let us try to distinguish between creativity and disrespect. I could go back to a simple analogy, such as the absurdity of = performing the Beethoven a minor String Quartet opus 132 on trombones (and please do = not counter with references to Bach's "Art of Fugue" on brass). What we have = to do is think clearly, logically, and respectfully about the music, and not = create convoluted arguments that support positions in which we do not REALLY believe. That is argument for the sake of being contrary; it is not = learned discussion. Put yourself in the shoes of the composer. Had you written a work and = put a great deal of thought into the nuances of color that you expected to = hear, choices that conveyed what YOU wanted the listener to hear, so that they = might be moved the way YOU are by your own creation, you would be angered and offended if you were disregarded. A gaggle of people will inevitably retort with, "I'm secure enough not = to care." To which the response is, "Well, bully for you, and in your first edition, you can ask the editor to emblazon across the top of your music, = 'play as you wish, the composer doesn't care.'" But that's not the way it is with = most artists. If they don't care, they will merely give a tempo and dynamic marking. Of course, some people deliberately ignore those as well. If you are a spectacularly visionary colorist, and can orchestrate "Pictures at an Exhibition" as Maurice Ravel did, you get a hall pass. = STILL -- that is TRANSCRIPTION. That is not deciding that you REALLY knew what the = composer wanted. I know what's coming next: what if the organ doesn't have the stops specified? Well, that's NOT what we're discussing here. There are many = more small organs than large organs, and even more organs that are poorly designed = with the stops so disposed as to prevent the proper performance of the = literature, even if the ingredients are there. We're discussing the act of sitting = down to an instrument with the proper resources, with a clearly marked score, and deciding to play the piece differently than it was written. The former is adaptation to the conditions. The latter is something entirely different, = and certainly less heroic. Regarding older editions: yes, it is unfortunate when one does not = have the most recent scholarship at hand. One might pick up a Bach edition that = reads, "Flutes and strings, 16, 8, and 4, manuals coupled, all tremolos = on, shades closed" for the opening registration for the "Wedge." The introductory = notes may indicate that all 'like' notes between voices and within voices should = be tied, but that the countersubject is to be played staccato on the Solo = manual. But if you read any of the professional journals, or subscribe to a forum like this, you might detect that something is amiss. In other words, if = your edition was printed in a time before we numbered our World Wars, go to the = library. What this boils down to is that you can be "creative" as you wish to = be. Just make sure you understand your definition of creativity. If the music = is worth learning and performing, it is most likely that the COMPOSER is the creative one, and that our interpretive brand of creativity may lean a bit = more toward the destructive end of the spectrum. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City Trying to wrap things up before he leaves for Europe on Monday ..
(back) Subject: RE: 8' Obe From: "Ray Ahrens" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:16:05 -0500 Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: RE: 8' Obe From: "Desiree'" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:37:36 -0700 (PDT) LOL Ray...thats funny, candid, and made me laugh! Thanks you for that, = seriously. All I did, Ray, was to thank a lurking lister, without naming who they = are, for taking the time to put me intouch with a gentleman who has a very = thorough website upon Reger. This lurking lister did not have to do that, = but it was so kind that they did. it has been very insightful. i have no = idea how it got turned into something other than that, nor why things = mentioned so many months ago were brought up. i dont ever recall making = comments on the list, but do remember them in off-list discussions. = Hmm...oh well. So...who is playing the Chorale Varie of Durufle tomorrow?! --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
(back) Subject: pedal reeds and a 1960 Moeller From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:10:14 -0500 Hi! Thanks to Monty for mentioning the large amount of foundation tone contained in a good wooden 16' Posaune. If anyone listens to any of David Schrader's Bach recordings, you've heard the phenomenal 16' Posaune on the Jaeckel organ at Salem Lutheran Church in Wasuau, WI. It sounds like that's the only stop he has on in the pedal- it is such a rich penetrating tone, and not all overpowering. I almost always find in American organs (this has been my experience with (Schantz, Casavant, Moeller, and Berghaus) that pedal division are largely unsuitable for any at all authentic performance of Bach preludes and fugues and larger loud pieces. There are usually 2 16' reed stops in the pedal- the Bassoon from the swell and a 16' Bombarde or something of the sort. The bassoon is always far too soft and the Bombarde is always too loud and to "round" of a sound. I always end up having to couple divisions, and/or use a GASP! PEDAL MIXTURE! (I generally hate pedal = mixtures) I think the worst case I know of this is the Moeller organ at Elmhurst College in Elmhurst, IL. The pedal reeds are comprised of the choir 8' trumpet (a party horn named Henry that will PART YOUR HAIR) played at 16, 8, and 4 that is FAR too loud even with the box closed. And, there are TWO pedal mixtures and a 5 1/3 as well. There is a 16' violone that is the only independent flue in the pedal. You have to get VERY creative to play ANYTHING on this instrument! On the bright side, it does have to very lovely string/celeste pairs. This Moeller also has that lovely phenomenon of what I call the "great American reed chorus" on the swell, a 16' Bassoon (which is more an English horn than anything else), an 8' trompette, and a 4' Hautbois. What were they thinking??? Also, it has a 4' Rohrshalmei on the choir in addition to "Henry." And, of course, the only cornet is also in the choir. And, OF COURSE, there are 2 mixtures on the great and a 16/8' quintaton = unit. I'm sure no one would guess that this organ was installed in 1960!!! Blessings, Beau Surratt Organist First Congregational Church (UCC) Glen Ellyn, IL
(back) Subject: Titles From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:14:23 -0500 Hi All! As far as titles go, I always wonder what to call some of the Sweelinck dances if I play them in church. Somehow I don't think that "Balleto del Granduca" will edify anyone's soul on a Sunday morning! Usually if I am playing a single movement of an organ symphonie I will print the title as follows: Symphonie VI: I. Allegro Charles Marie Widor or something like that. I always think about what to title the Schroeder Little Preludes and Intermezzi when I play them in church- they only have numbers or tempo markings. Blessings, Beau Surratt Organist First Congregational Church (UCC) Glen Ellyn, IL
(back) Subject: Re: Durufle tomorrow From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 22:51:18 EDT In a message dated 5/14/05 6:38:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > So...who is playing the Chorale Varie of Durufle tomorrow?! moi. and the choir is singing ubi caritas and tantum ergo. our own little = durufle extravaganza. scot
(back) Subject: Re: Durufle tomorrow From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 22:58:05 EDT In a message dated 5/14/2005 9:51:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, BlueeyedBear@aol.com writes: In a message dated 5/14/05 6:38:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: So...who is playing the Chorale Varie of Durufle tomorrow?! moi. and the choir is singing ubi caritas and tantum ergo. our own little durufle extravaganza. scot BRAVISSIMO!!! As it should be done!
(back) Subject: RE: pedal reeds and a 1960 Moeller From: "Michael David" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 22:10:22 -0500 Named, no doubt, after Henry Beard; the local Moller rep who sold a LOT of those. Michael - who is glad he doesn't play one -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of = Beau Surratt Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 9:10 PM To: PipeChat Subject: pedal reeds and a 1960 Moeller <snip> I think the worst case I know of this is the Moeller organ at Elmhurst College in Elmhurst, IL. The pedal reeds are comprised of the choir 8' trumpet (a party horn named Henry that will PART YOUR HAIR) played at 16, 8, and 4 that is FAR too loud even with the box closed. And, there are TWO pedal mixtures and a 5 1/3 as well. There is a 16' violone that is the only independent flue in the pedal. You have to get VERY creative to play ANYTHING on this instrument! On the bright side, it does have to very lovely string/celeste pairs. This Moeller also has that lovely phenomenon of what I call the "great American reed chorus" on the swell, a 16' Bassoon (which is more an English horn than anything else), an 8' trompette, and a 4' Hautbois. What were they thinking??? Also, it has a 4' Rohrshalmei on the choir in addition to "Henry." And, of course, the only cornet is also in the choir. And, OF COURSE, there are 2 mixtures on the great and a 16/8' quintaton unit. I'm sure no one would guess that this organ was installed in 1960!!!