PipeChat Digest #5358 - Saturday, May 21, 2005
 
Re: Rollschweller and cone valve chests
  by "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
Re: Gmail... a new kind of email.
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
organ concerts in Europe
  by "Lynde & Connie Kimball" <lkimball@sover.net>
Re: trills toward the end of BWV 651
  by "Staffan Thuringer" <staffan_thuringer@yahoo.com.au>
Felix Hell in Gettysburg. Recital announcement
  by "Hell-Concerts@t-online.de" <Hell-Concerts@t-online.de>
Re: Rollschweller and cone valve chests. - the response
  by "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net>
good accompanimental organs
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Hull City Hall...Compton v.Walcker
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Rollschweller and cone valve chests. - the response
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Hinners, was Re: A Pipe Organ Survival Story (Very True!)(X-Posted)
  by "John Seboldt" <rohrwerk@seboldt.net>
Re: organ concerts in Europe
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com>
John Weaver Article (x-posted)
  by "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com>
Re: Toe-stud general pistons (x posted)
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
RE: good accompanimental organs
  by "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net>
Editing Postings
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Rollschweller and cone valve chests From: "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:30:17 +0300   I think sheer size is also a factor, Colin. On the few large romantic = organs of the late 19th century I have played (UK and Australia) I have noticed that adding 8' stops does have a subtle but definite effect on the sound. Because there are a lot of them they are able to produce this result, so = it is possible to produce a gradual crescendo. Sydney Town Hall is a good example of this - though if you add the Tubas to the chorus it will = produce an "overpowering effect". But they are not chorus reeds and the swell = reeds, whilst effective, are not strident. Durham Cathedral, though rebuilt over the years, is similar. What is your view of Hull City Hall, which I think you have played? Admittedly it is a later instrument - a rebuild by = Compton in 1950 of a 1911 Forster & Andrews - and the swell reeds are far more incisive than those you suggest prevail in Germany, but it is large and = does have a crescendo pedal. I should imagine this will bring on stops in = blocks. I remember playing it - it was probably over 40 years ago - and my memory = is more of a general impression than specific details now, but it seemed to = be possible to build up a satisfying sound by adding stops. Again, it is greatly helped by Town Hall acoustics, which in those days seem to favour organs. And there are quieter reeds - the swell at Hull has two 16' reeds and five at 8', and the choir has a 16' clarinet, which is a useful chorus =   reed. The British organs just went a bit further with their fiery reed choruses as an additional feature.   John Foss http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/about.htm http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/   Colin Mitchell wrote: "The voicing is another crucial factor. German romantic organs (even around 1860) had many subtle and blending softer registers, with absolutely no dominant reeds, and a Swell organ which was very restrained indeed. So, in the later instruments of Walcker, Soare and others, the crescendo is seamless due to the fact that nothing "suddenly" predominates in the way that a Swell reed chorus would on a Skinner or an English Harrison instrument."      
(back) Subject: Re: Gmail... a new kind of email. From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:06:06 -0500   Hi, Bob   You do it by getting an invite from a Gmail member. As Gmail is only in the beta version, the only way to get an account is to be invited. The instructions come with the invite. So, yes, you do have to change your address to use it, if you use it for all of your email. example: conwayb@gmail.com   Tim, I apologise for that amount of quoted text. Gmail automatically includes all quoted text with the email. I had to change my settings so that it would not. Once again, I apologise for that one.   --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: organ concerts in Europe From: "Lynde & Connie Kimball" <lkimball@sover.net> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:40:59 -0400   Can anyone tell me how to find out about organ concerts that will take place in parts of France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy in July 2005? We am particularly interested in Strasbourg, Paris, southern Germany, Zurich and Milan. I have tried on the Internet and usually get lists of concerts from previous years. We will plan portions of our trip around concerts if we can find out about them in advance. Thanks for any help!   Connie    
(back) Subject: Re: trills toward the end of BWV 651 From: "Staffan Thuringer" <staffan_thuringer@yahoo.com.au> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 22:17:03 +1000 (EST)   PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> wrote: Subject: trills toward the end of BWV 651 From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:44:15 -0500   In planning to play Bach's Fantasia on "Komm, heiliger Geist ..." (S. 651 [No. 1 from the Great 18]) this Sunday, I'm a bit puzzled once again by the trills and the presence, and sometimes lack, of closing notes. I use the Peters Edition--Volume VII, and the first trill is in the very last measure of p. 8.   1. The trills in the next 3 measures do not have closing notes. Seems to me I should add closing notes to the first 2 of these and leave the 3rd one as is (m. 3 at the top of p. 9) because it doesn't work in the downward-voice-leading context.   2. Should one be as consistent as possible in playing these trills (i.e., speed of trill and use of closing notes where possible) or doesn't it matter all that much? I'm not aware of what the most up-to-date, historically-informed notions are and can take the heat if you want to flamb=E9 me for my ignorance--providing you have proper fuel to add to the fire. :-) Dear Bob, I think the answer to your questions can be found at the bottom of page 1 = in Peters VII, and you have to observe the distinction between the = 'Praller' and the 'Triller mit nachslag'. The trills you talk about in the = 3 first measures of page 9 are only 'prallers', and the execution is shown = at the bottom of page 1 (if your edition is the same as mine). Besides, I would find it quite challenging to perform the prallers in m. 1 = and m. 3 of p. 9 (sorry, I do not know the proper English word) as = thrills, as the same hand is also busy holding an other note. Regards Staffan       --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.  
(back) Subject: Felix Hell in Gettysburg. Recital announcement From: "Hell-Concerts@t-online.de" <Hell-Concerts@t-online.de> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:55:10 +0200   Dear listmembers,   this is to announce Felix Hell's recital at the Lutheran Theological Seminary (LTSG) the upcoming Sunday. The recital is part of Felix's obligations as Distinguished Organist-in-Residence at LTSG.   Location: Lutheran Theological Seminary Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Date/time: May 22, 2005, 4 p.m.   Felix Hell, Organist   Program   Dietrich Buxtehude (1637 - 1707) Prelude, Fugue and Ciaconna, C Major, BuxWV 137   Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750 Prelude and Fugue C Major, BWV 547   Trio Sonata No. 6, G Major, BWB 530 (Vivace) Lente Allegro   Prelude and Fugue C Major, BWV 545   Passacaglia and Fugue C minor, BWV 582   Johannes Brahms (1809 - 1847) Fugue A flat Minor     Franz Liszt (1811-1886) Prelude and Fugue on B-A-C-H   The entrance is free. A free will offering will be received.   Hans-Friedrich Hell                  
(back) Subject: Re: Rollschweller and cone valve chests. - the response From: "Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug" <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:22:00 -0400   On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 12:40:37AM -0700, Colin Mitchell wrote: > Hello, > > I'm still learning on this subject, but the general > concensus seems to be that the seamless quality of the > German style Rollschweller is both mechanical AND > tonal. It seems.....and I have to take the word of > others for this.....that the Rollschweller has a > gear-train which gives a smooth operation, and allows > registers to be added one by one across a wide range. >   At the time, a gear train was a Really Big Deal, I'm assuming a 1:1 ratio from the fairly small crescendo shoe to a larger gear so there was much more space for contacts. 'Course now toys that come in my kids' happy meals have gear trains.   Nowadays, I'd use a 8-bit encoder with a 3/4 travel and do the job with the shoe as the only moving part.   It's always fascinating to see what our forebears were able to do with the technology they had. Can you imagine throwing this problem at a present-day servo designer, "Oh . by the way . . . encoders and stepper motors haven't been invented yet. Have fun."    
(back) Subject: good accompanimental organs From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:46:55 -0500   Thank you for sharing the stoplist of the organ you helped design, Terry. I am exceedingly interested in what creative borrowing and unitizing can do, and am coming to the conclusion that such creativity can extend the usefulness of the instrument without hindering its effectiveness.   A few questions:   1. Is the Clarabella the same as the Claribel Flute?   2. Is the 8' Swell Principal the same as the Principal unit on the Great?   3. The bass of the Gemshorn is from the Quintadena. Does this mean it's a synthesized stop? Or do you have a Quintadena rank playing at 16' pitch? If the latter, would it have been useful to include it in the Pedal, also?   4. What is the composition of the 32' Harmonics?   5. If the Great Cornet is different than the Swell, does that mean that there are two nasards, and two tierces, both enclosed in the Swell box?   I have often thought that a well-designed stoplist could be duplicated over several manuals in order to increase flexibility, at least in smaller organs. I can't say how in how many smaller organs I've played I've realized that the oboe could only be best accompanied by another stop in its own division, for instance. =20   Interesting food for thought, Randy.   I've reprinted your posting (partially) below, since it is several days old, so that people can refer back.   Daniel Hancock Springfield, Missouri =20       When I designed the specifications for the instrument in my present church, I wanted to be sure and have plenty of possibilities for loud and soft, solo and accompaniment in both divisions. The Reuter is 19 ranks, the organ at St. Peter's below is 20. Here is the stoplist:   GREAT:   16' Gedeckt (sw) *8' Diapason *8' Principal (unit, from 4' Octave) 8' Solo Flutes (unit - Clarabella and Koppelflute at 8') 8' Claribel Flute 8' Gemshorn (sw) 5-1/3' Gross Nasat (sw) *4' Octave 4' Rohrflute *2-2/3' Twelfth *2' Fifteenth 2' Koppel (sw) II Sesquialtera (sw) IV Mixture 1-1/3 (sw) 8' Trumpet (sw) 8' Oboe (sw) 4' Clarion (sw) Great 4' (effective on 8 and 4' stops only) Swell 16, 8, 4' * exposed, remainder enclosed with swell   SWELL:   16' Gemshorn (unit, bass from ex Quintadena) 8' Principal (unit, bass from flute at 8 + gemshorn at 8 & 4) 8' Gedeckt 8' Gemshorn 8' Celeste 4' Principal 4' Koppelflute 4' Unda Maris II (unit, from ghns) 2-2/3' Nasat 2' Octave (ext 4) 2' Flute (ext gt 4) 1-3/5' Terz 1-1/3' Quintflute (ext) IV Grave Mixture 2-2/3' (unit) IV Mixture 1-1/3' 16' Double Trumpet 8' Trumpet (ext) 8' Oboe 4' Clarion (ext) Tremulant   PEDAL:   32' Acoustic Bass (unit) 16' Bourdon 16' Gedeckt (sw) 8' Octave (gt 8) 8' Bass Flute (ext) 8' Gemshorn (sw) 4' Choral Bass (gt 8) III Mixture 5-1/3 (unit from sw Nasard, gt 2-2/3 + 2) 32' Harmonics (unit) 16' Dbl Trumpet (sw) 8' Trumpet (sw) 4' Clarion (sw) 4' Oboe (sw) Great 8' Swell 8, 4'   While the stoplist is busy, the organ will do a great deal, and even though they share the mutations, the great cornet is a different character from the swell. Lots of cool stuff here!  
(back) Subject: Hull City Hall...Compton v.Walcker From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:21:18 -0700 (PDT)   Hello   Yes, the Compton organ of Hull City Hall does indeed have a general crescendo pedal, and that's where the similarity to a Walcker organ ends!   I spent many an hour practising at Hull City Hall, much to the "delight" of the City Hall staff, who would take so much before asking me to play "something nice!"   Out came the Trems, the Glock and the Tibias.....and away we all waltzed or swung, much to their obvious delight!   A tonal comparison between the Forster&Andrews/Compton organ at Hull, and say, the Walcker at Doesburg, is like comparing champagne and root-beer....completely different!   I just cannot describe how heavy and oppressive the sound of the Walcker organ at Doesburg is, and yet, it has some truly beautiful sounds lurking within. Nothing I have ever heard compares.   Hull is quite a bright sound; at least until the heavy artillery is drawn, at which point, it is plainly audible down in the High Street 200 meters away!!   There are no subtle crescendos at Hull.   As Carlo Curley announced (with hands on hips) to a slightly deafened audience, "Whooop! This has to be one of the loudest organs anywhere in the world! Do you want more?"   Everyone cupped their ears and replied, "Could you repeat that Carlo?"   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- John Foss <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> wrote: > Colin......What is your view of Hull > City Hall, which I think > you have played?     __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Rollschweller and cone valve chests. - the response From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:31:59 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Oh indeed!   Some of these people were extremely clever.   It may explain why they all ended up trying out new toys on the battlefields of Europe!   "It was just a bit of fun!"   Regards,   Colin MItchell UK     --- Charles & Maria DeVita-Krug <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net> wrote:   > It's always fascinating to see what our forebears > were able to do with > the technology they had.     Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html    
(back) Subject: Hinners, was Re: A Pipe Organ Survival Story (Very True!)(X-Posted) From: "John Seboldt" <rohrwerk@seboldt.net> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:08:30 -0500   Devon3000@aol.com wrote:   > The Hinners is the typical workhorse instrument that dotted the > countryside of Illinois and many other states for many years. > Unfortunately, most of them are probably in landfills, even though > they required little maintainance. This instrument has an independent > 16' Bourdon in the pedal (14 notes, I believe), and divided stops of 16' =   > flute TC, 8' flute, 8' dulcianna, 8' diapason, and 4' flute. The manual =   > has a super octave, and with the gentle 16' on the manual, it is a grand =   > sound! Also quite a lot of literature can be played on this wonderful > instrument.   Glad to hear of its survival. I've never played one of these - I've seen the 4-stop design and some of the 2-manual designs, and some later EP's, but not that one.   The one I'm acquainted with just omits the 16' manual flute. It's in Zion Lutheran Church, Gordonville, MO (near Cape Girardeau). Fortunately it's been appreciated and restored - my grandfather was pastor there for 35 years until about the early 70's, and my uncle has been in the congregation recently and has kept them interested in the old beast.   I don't know if the voicing varies much between individual units... my fondest memory is the sheer power and edge of that 8' Diapason, super-coupled for the 8-4' effect, in leading singing - well nicked, no chiff, but very prompt and bright. I was less impressed with the softer stops - charming, but with less color and interest to my ear, a rather thin Gamba, 8' stopped diapason, and 4' open flute. The difference between that grand diapason and the 3 other stops ( in a swell box) made it behave like a one-stop Grand Great and a three-stop Echo or something - the soft stops made practically no contribution when drawn behind the "Big Bertha" Open Diapason.   But perhaps that was a logical concept for the time and purpose - soft stops for quiet "churchy" things beforehand, and one nice loud stop to lead singing.   It would be interesting to hear others' experiences of these old standbys.   John Seboldt Milwaukee, WI www.seboldt.net/annunciation www.seboldt.net/choralevensong  
(back) Subject: Re: organ concerts in Europe From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis.jan@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:26:40 -0700   One source ...   http://www.hetorgel.nl   Choose your language preference (English?)=20 Click the Calendar button, then the Festivals in Europe (English) link.   On 5/20/05, Lynde & Connie Kimball <lkimball@sover.net> wrote: > Can anyone tell me how to find out about organ concerts that will take > place in parts of France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy in July 2005? > We am particularly interested in Strasbourg, Paris, southern Germany, > Zurich and Milan. I have tried on the Internet and usually get lists > of concerts from previous years. We will plan portions of our trip > around concerts if we can find out about them in advance. Thanks for > any help! >=20 > Connie >=20 >=20 > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20 >=20     --=20 Jan Nijhuis nijhuis.jan@gmail.com  
(back) Subject: John Weaver Article (x-posted) From: "N. Russotto" <ravenrockdesigns@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:44:15 -0400   For those of you who missed it, there was an article in the New York Times today about dear friend Dr. John Weaver, who is playing his last recital at Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church this Sunday. The article is beautiful and well written, and highlights very well some of Dr. Weavers life. It is nice that such a wonderful organist is recognized.   Here is the link to the story   http://tinyurl.com/9qzqp     Soli Deo Gloria,   Nicholas F. Russotto   --=20 Nicholas F. Russotto Somers, Connecticut Organist, Holy Cross PNCC Enfield, Connecticut Moderator/Owner: Monarch of Music=20 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/monarch_of_music/  
(back) Subject: Re: Toe-stud general pistons (x posted) From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:05:55 -0500   Just a nit, but wasn't it actually the other way round, the toe studs (or levers in the early days) coming first? On the pipe organ at my first posting, a pre-1900 Canadian Pipe Organ Co. jewel, I had four general foot-levers with an adjustable setter-board. No thumb pistons.   Russ Greene         On May 19, 2005, at 10:41 AM, Robert Lind wrote:   > A friend, not on these lists, wants to know when general pistons > were first > available on duplicating toe studs. >    
(back) Subject: RE: good accompanimental organs From: "Randy Terry" <randy@peacham.homeip.net> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:03:02 -0700   Thanks for your comments. The following might help! The annotated rank listing shows the independent stops in each division.   Because I wanted to unify the secondary stops, I enclosed the great flutes = 8 and 4 with the swell, which works well, until you need an unenclosed flute solo. To remedy this, we have purchased the small-scaled Estey = Doppelflute. The acoustics in the church are very favorable, and until the Doppelflute = is installed, the knob presently draws the Claribel Flute and Koppelflute at = 8' pitch, which works fairly well.   The fact that the mixture is located in the swell is because that is where the original mixture was. After revoicing, it was decided that the one mixture was sufficient, and because of that, a principal Twelfth was = chosen for the great.   The swell Principal is independent from the great. The organ originally = had a 97 note Quintadena unit. We discarded the majority of this stop, but because we ran out of room, the original Quintadena bass octave was = revoiced (not much) and serves as the bass of the Gedeckt and Gemshorn in the = swell.   The vintage stops are revoiced - the most drastic revoicing was with the = old Austin Claribel Flute, with cut-ups lowered and nicking filled, it now has = a bit of chiff and is a lovely contrast to the Aeolian Gedeckt, from the = 1928 organ in Calvary Presbyterian in San Francisco. We filled the nicks in = the Gedeckt, but it still retains its original character with little or no chiff.   The reed cornet has three pitches in the bass and these are drawn from the Claribel flute. I will have to look up the composition, but it is what Moller used. This acoustic 32' works excellently, and I am delighted that = I did not waste 10K on electronic 32' stops, although in lesser acoustics these synthetic stops would not be as successful.   My main goal was to have a great manual that has a complete selection of secondary and soft stops. By borrowing from the swell, a very basic great division is much more useful for accompaniment and literature.   Tonally, the organ is in the style of American Classic instruments from = the 50's - the ensemble can be made very quinty if desired, which works great = in baroque music. The Diapason is very full and is nicked, but the upperwork is more perky.   Randy   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org, Daniel Hancock Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 6:47 AM Subject: good accompanimental organs   Thank you for sharing the stoplist of the organ you helped design, Terry. I am exceedingly interested in what creative borrowing and unitizing can do, and am coming to the conclusion that such creativity can extend the usefulness of the instrument without hindering its effectiveness.   A few questions:     <snip>   ANNOTATED RANK LISTING, ST. PETER'S   GREAT   8' Diapason* - 61 pipes, original 1972 pipes and voicing, 24 note unit extension removed.   8' Doppelfloete* - 49 pipes, TC, 1947 Estey pipes, PREPARED   8' Claribel Flute - 61 pipes, 1914 Austin pipes revoiced, on new chest   4' Octave* - 61 pipes, original 1972 pipes revoiced   4' Rohrfloete - 61 pipes, original 1972 Nazard revoiced/extended, on new chest   2-2/3' Twelfth* - 61 pipes, used 1958 European pipes revoiced, on new = chest   2' Fifteenth* - 61 pipes, used 1958 European pipes revoiced, on new chest   Note 1: Diapason, Doppelfloete, Octave, Twelfth, Fifteenth exposed = pipework   Note 2: Claribel Flute and Rohrfloete enclosed with Swell   SWELL   16' Gedeckt - 12 original stop'd metal Q'dena regulated + 61 1928 Aeolian, on new chest   8' Gemshorn - 73 original pipes, slightly revoiced, 1,2,3 rebuilt by = Tommy Anderson   8' Celeste - 49 original pipes, slight irregularities smoothed out = (Flauto Dolce tone)   4' Principal - 73 new pipes by Tommy Anderson, on new chest (variably scaled 8-4-2 unit)   4' Koppelfloete - 73 original pipes (1-12 capped/rescaled by Tommy = Anderson)   2-2/3' Nasat - 73 used Stinkens pipes on orig. Q'dena chest (1-7 new T. = A.)   1-3/5' Terz - 49 original pipes loudened   IV Mixture 1-1/3' - 244 original pipes, revoiced, top octave extension removed   16' Trumpet - 85 original pipes, re-regulated (Organ Supply Industries)   8' Oboe - 61 used pipes on original Nazard Chest (Durst Organ Supply, = 1969)   PEDAL   16' Bourdon 24 original pipes (25 - 32 prepared)          
(back) Subject: Editing Postings From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:18:37 EDT   Let's think about that one for a while... Nah! We're all grown up people; we can surely accept the responsibility of = removing exterraneous verbage simply because we're courteous people. Right, folks? Stan Krider In a message dated 5/19/2005 6:02:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, pipechat@pipechat.org writes:   Subject: Re: Editing Postings - PLEASE READ! From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:16:24 -0500   David, as Administrator wrote, in part   > And there is no reason for seeing the PipeChat "footer", which is put > onto every post automatically by the list server, repeated over and > over and over again in a response posting.   Leading me to wonder, if perhaps the "footer" could be changed to a separate email message attached to the end of a digest, and sent once to the list whenever a new digest is dispatched, rather than at the end of each message. Seems to me, it would save bandwidth.   ns